eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Dec 5, 2020 7:27:07 GMT
The topic at hand is the fate of the Philippines in a TL where the USA acquired Cuba (and the rest of North America) before it acquired a strategic interest or the ability of force projection in the Pacific, and hence the Spanish-American War and US conquest of the Archipelago as we know them were not going to occur.
ITTL the USA gradually annexed all of North America (except NFL, PEI, Haiti, and the Anglo-French West Indies) in the period between the ARW and the mid-late 19th century. It acquired Quebec, Nova Scotia, and Ontario during the ARW, Rupert's Land and the Pacific Northwest a little later by purchase, negotiation, or war. It intervened in the Latin American Wars of Independence and got Cuba, St. Domingo, and Puerto Rico. It annexed Northern Mexico as a result of the Mexican-American War, and Central-Southern Mexico after its intervention in the French invasion of Mexico. It acquired Central America by various means (filibuster, negotiation, military intervention). It built both the Nicaragua and Panama Canals. Slavery never took root or was abolished in the Upper South either because of a stronger free section limiting its territorial expansion, or the states decided to enact gradual emancipation on their own initiative. The acquisitions of Louisiana, Alaska, and Hawaii went much the same way, except for Russia throwing Chukotka, Magadan, and Kamchatka in the bargain (the Russians expected to get Greater Manchuria as a better alternative, but Japan got in the way).
The slavery issue was possibly settled peacefully by the Deep South and Caribbean slave states reluctantly coming to accept gradual emancipation as inevitable. In such a case, America settled the social legacy of slavery by the population transfer of the vast majoity of freedmen and free Blacks to West Africa. Alternatively, the slaveocrat elites decided to try secession the usual way despite bad odds because of the correct expectation that Britain, France, and Spain would intervene to support the CSA and cut down America one notch. However, the outraged Union mobilized its resources and flexed its muscles to crush the Confederates and defeat their foreign allies. The unholy compact of slaver traitors and foreign invaders conspiring to destroy the American experiment drove the Union to enact radical Reconstruction, snuffing out legal segregation and disenfranchisement of Blacks in their cradle. This paved the way to integration of freedmen in American society and development of a Black middle class, albeit with the vast majority of Blacks staying in the bottom level of the US social pyramid and with private bigotry against them remaining socially respectable and tolerated by law.
Britain compensated itself for the near-complete loss of North America by seizing the Dutch East Indies and South Africa (quite possibly the Southern Cone too) during the Napoleonic Wars. It later cooperated with Germany to partition the Portuguese colonial empire. The 1848-49 Revolutions were mostly successful, leading to the collapse of the Habsburg Empire, the unifications of Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia, the independence of Hungary and Poland, and the rise of the liberal CP bloc. France went the usual Napoleonic way and got its butt kicked worse than usual in the equivalent of the Franco-Prussian War (similar dynamic, different casus belli) expanded to Italy, losing Alsace, Lorraine, Luxemburg, Savoy, Nice, the French Riviera, and Corsica.
Japan modernized slightly earlier and even more successfully than OTL, paving the way to acquisition of Korea in the 1870s-1880s, Inner Manchuria, Taiwan, and Hainan in the (earlier) Sino-Japanese War, Outer Manchuria and Karafuto in the (earlier) Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese Empire went more liberal than OTL due to CP-US influence and successfully integrated the overseas territories through a mix of settler colonization, enfranchisement and socio-economic development, cultural assimilation, and merger of Japanese and Korean elites.
Spain went more or less the same way as OTL, including its gradual decline and decay of its grip on the Philippines all the way to an anti-colonial rebellion. However, simple decolonization and independence of the Archipelago as a result of revolution is very unlikely, since before the American intervention Spain even in its weakened state had crushed the Filipino revolutionaries. Moreover, the Archipelago was too much of a valuable booty for stronger expansionist powers, the rest of Southeast Asia was falling to colonialism, and the end of the 19th century was the apex of imperialism. Decolonization was simply not in the cards yet for non-Whites (failing to modernize and industrialize has consequences), barring the Japanese 'if you can't beat them, imitate them' successful exception. What might happen then? I see a few likely possibilities.
Japan has got a satisfying amount of valuable land, resources, and strategic depth in Northeast Asia, and its main strategic focus settled on developing and defending the area from a possible comeback of Russia and China. Nonetheless, the Japanese may well turn to regard the Philippines as a low-hanging fruit, b/c of Spain's weakness and anti-colonial unrest giving them a pretext, according to their 'Asia for the Asians' doctrine. Defeating Spain is going to be a walk in the park for the victors of the Russo-Japanese War. If we look at OTL as an analogy, the easiest outcome of Japanese conquest of the Philippines might be its becoming a client state of Japan, as a possible seed for the Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, if and when favorable conditions materialize for expansion of Japanese influence in the rest of Southeast Asia (such as the European powers getting involved in the World Wars).
TTL liberal Meji-Taisho Japan is going to be a much less brutal imperialist overlord than its OTL Showa self. Therefore, the GACPS is going to be less of a figleaf and more of a genuine EU-style project, although the Japanese Empire is always going to call the shots in the union. Alternatively, Japan may well annex and gradually integrate the Philippines like the rest of its overseas territories, also b/c ITTL there is no Manchukuo precedent. Greater Manchuria was directly annexed by Japan, since the Qing were still in charge of China and more importantly early conquest prevented or undid Han and Russian settlement in the region, leaving it sparsely populated and ripe for extensive Japanese-Korean colonization. However, this seems less easy b/c of greater ethnic, cultural, and religious differences as well as a larger socio-economic gap between the Japanese and the Filipinos, in comparison to the Koreans.
The USA may well be a good candidate to grab the Philippines all the same, despite the need for a different casus belli. By the turn of the century, it is done absorbing North America and getting an appetite for economic and strategic expansion in the Pacific (unless it is too distracted by events in South America). Much like Japan, anti-colonial unrest in the Archipelago may become a good excuse for intervention. US conquest is going to be even easier than OTL. Since TTL America is more liberal, multi-cultural, and expansionist than OTL, its sponsorship of the Philippines' independence does not seem in the cards, but the Philippine-American War may well be averted or greatly toned down by early political compromise and the Filipino revolutionaries taking a more pro-US stance. The natural outcome seems establishment of the Commonwealth of the Philippines associated state relationship with the USA, with no promise or expectation of independence. This settlement may well become lasting or (perhaps more likely) become the preparatory stage to US statehood in a few decades. Since TTL USA absorbed all of North America, there is no good reason why it cannot do the same with the Philippines, of course after bringing the Archipelago up to speed with US standards and reorganizing it in a suitable number of states (the same happened to Mexico).
Britain got a second Indian Raj with the union of Malesia and the DEI and has no good reason to meddle with the Philippines. Thanks to early unification and being stronger than OTL, Germany and Italy were able to stand up to Britain and France in the Scramble for Africa as equal competitors and build sizable colonial empires in the continent. Germany got Mittelafrika and Morocco, Italy got Tunisia, Libya, the Horn of Africa, Kenya, and Uganda. They are more satisfied colonial powers than OTL, Southeast Asia is not so relevant to their interests, and a CP intervention in the Philippines not that likely. A possible exception would be if the Germans and the Italians pushed France out of Indochina and seized its assets after the war. This might well become a springboard for German-Italian expansion in the Philippines and Siam. This would in all likelihood involve a partition or co-dominium of the area.
France may well be another good candidate to grab the Philippines. TTL defeat left it even more humiliated and with greater losses than OTL, and hence with even more of an urge to compensate by colonial expansion. Moreover, German-Italian strength and influence blocked French expansion in most of North Africa and Central Africa, limiting its African gains to Algeria, most of West Africa, and Madagascar. If the French were able to keep and expand in Indochina as well after the war, they are sure to grab Siam too and likely regard the Philippines as a tempting target. Unlike Japan and America, they are unlikely to pick anti-colonialism as a pretext, but I am sure some half-decent excuse for war can be found in Paris. Differently from the other likely colonial-war cases, France and Spain do share a land border, which creates more interesting possibilities.
TTL uber-revanchist France is surely on the lookout for means to increase its strength vs. the superior CP bloc. Absorbing Spain in a 'Gallic Union' would be a feasible way of doing it, and it would net the Philippines by default. This seems especially likely if France went right-wing authoritarian and restored the Bourbon on the throne as figureheads for proto-fascism. Dynastic circumstances would then create favorable circumstances for a Franco-Spanish personal union if the French sponsor the Legitimist/Carlist pretenders for both thrones. The French fascists may then use the Spanish Carlists and conservatives as a power base for a takeover, with things turning out like a combo of the Carlist Wars, the Spanish Civil War, and the 1823 invasion. Due to the presence of a sizable and ideologically-motivated Spanish fifth column, a repeat of the Peninsular War widespread resistance is unlikely.
China is in even worse trouble than OTL due to a combo of its usual domestic woes and even worse colonialist encroachment (due to the foreign powers being stronger and/or more motivated to grab a piece of its pie), which in all likelihood makes the Qing failure and downfall even more traumatic and damaging. It shall be several decades before it is in any shape to project influence in its coutyard, barring a miracle recovery at the hands of super-successful reformist monarchists, Nationalists, or Communists (assuming they become a thing ITTL). Russia pretty much lost all access to the Pacific except for the mediocre Okhotsk avenue (and is all but sure to grab Xinjiang and Greater Mongolia to compensate), so it is powerless to project influence in East Asia, except as it concerns trying to gain control of China proper as a proxy through their shared border.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 5, 2020 12:12:07 GMT
The topic at hand is the fate of the Philippines in a TL where the USA acquired Cuba long before it acquired a strategic interest or the ability of force projection in the Pacific, and hence the Spanish-American War and US conquest of the Archipelago as we know them were not going to occur. ITTL the USA gradually annexed all of North America (except NFL, PEI, Haiti, and the Anglo-French West Indies) in the period between the ARW and the mid-late 19th century. It acquired Quebec, Nova Scotia, and Ontario during the ARW, Rupert's Land and the Pacific Northwest a little later by purchase, negotiation, or war. It intervened in the Latin American Wars of Independence and got Cuba, St. Domingo, and Puerto Rico. It annexed Northern Mexico as a result of the Mexican-American War, and Central-Southern Mexico after its intervention in the French invasion of Mexico. It acquired Central America by various means (filibuster, negotiation, military intervention). It built both the Nicaragua and Panama Canals. Slavery never took root or was abolished in the Upper South either because of a stronger free section limiting its territorial expansion, or the states decided to enact gradual emancipation on their own initiative. The acquisitions of Louisiana, Alaska, and Hawaii went much the same way, except for Russia throwing Chukotka, Magadan, and Kamchatka in the bargain (the Russians expected to get Greater Manchuria as a better alternative, but Japan got in the way). The slavery issue was possibly settled peacefully by the Deep South and Caribbean slave states reluctantly coming to accept gradual emancipation as inevitable. In such a case, America settled the social legacy of slavery by the population transfer of the vast majoity of freedmen and free Blacks to West Africa. Alternatively, the slaveocrat elites decided to try secession the usual way despite bad odds because of the correct expectation that Britain, France, and Spain would intervene to support the CSA and cut down America one notch. However, the outraged Union mobilized its resources and flexed its muscles to crush the Confederates and defeat their foreign allies. The unholy compact of slaver traitors and foreign invaders conspiring to destroy the American experiment drove the Union to enact radical Reconstruction, snuffing out legal segregation and disenfranchisement of Blacks in their cradle. This paved the way to integration of freedmen in American society and development of a Black middle class, albeit with the vast majority of Blacks staying in the bottom level of the US social pyramid and with private bigotry against them remaining socially respectable and tolerated by law. Britain compensated itself for the near-complete loss of North America by seizing the Dutch East Indies and South Africa (quite possibly the Southern Cone too) during the Napoleonic Wars. It later cooperated with Germany to partition the Portuguese colonial empire. The 1848-49 Revolutions were mostly successful, leading to the collapse of the Habsburg Empire, the unifications of Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia, the independence of Hungary and Poland, and the rise of the liberal CP bloc. France went the usual Napoleonic way and got its butt kicked worse than usual in the equivalent of the Franco-Prussian War (similar dynamic, different casus belli) expanded to Italy, losing Alsace, Lorraine, Luxemburg, Savoy, Nice, the French Riviera, and Corsica. Japan modernized slightly earlier and even more successfully than OTL, paving the way to acquisition of Korea in the 1870s-1880s, Inner Manchuria, Taiwan, and Hainan in the (earlier) Sino-Japanese War, Outer Manchuria and Karafuto in the (earlier) Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese Empire went more liberal than OTL due to CP-US influence and successfully integrated the overseas territories through a mix of settler colonization, enfranchisement and socio-economic development, cultural assimilation, and merger of Japanese and Korean elites. Spain went more or less the same way as OTL, including its gradual decline and decay of its grip on the Philippines all the way to an anti-colonial rebellion. However, simple decolonization and independence of the Archipelago as a result of revolution is very unlikely, since before the American intervention Spain even in its weakened state had crushed the Filipino revolutionaries. Moreover, the Archipelago was too much of a valuable booty for stronger expansionist powers, the rest of Southeast Asia was falling to colonialism, and the end of the 19th century was the apex of imperialism. Decolonization was simply not in the cards yet for non-Whites (failing to modernize and industrialize has consequences), barring the Japanese 'if you can't beat them, imitate them' successful exception. What might happen then? I see a few likely possibilities. Japan has got a satisfying amount of valuable land, resources, and strategic depth in Northeast Asia, and its main strategic focus settled on developing and defending the area from a possible comeback of Russia and China. Nonetheless, the Japanese may well turn to regard the Philippines as a low-hanging fruit, b/c of Spain's weakness and anti-colonial unrest giving them a pretext, according to their 'Asia for the Asians' doctrine. Defeating Spain is going to be a walk in the park for the victors of the Russo-Japanese War. If we look at OTL as an analogy, the easiest outcome of Japanese conquest of the Philippines might be its becoming a client state of Japan, as a possible seed for the Greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, if and when favorable conditions materialize for expansion of Japanese influence in the rest of Southeast Asia (such as the European powers getting involved in the World Wars). TTL liberal Meji-Taisho Japan is going to be a much less brutal imperialist overlord than its OTL Showa self. Therefore, the GACPS is going to be less of a figleaf and more of a genuine EU-style project, although the Japanese Empire is always going to call the shots in the union. Alternatively, Japan may well annex and gradually integrate the Philippines like the rest of its overseas territories, also b/c ITTL there is no Manchukuo precedent. Greater Manchuria was directly annexed by Japan, since the Qing were still in charge of China and more importantly early conquest prevented or undid Han and Russian settlement in the region, leaving it sparsely populated and ripe for extensive Japanese-Korean colonization. However, this seems less easy b/c of greater ethnic, cultural, and religious differences as well as a larger socio-economic gap between the Japanese and the Filipinos, in comparison to the Koreans. The USA may well be a good candidate to grab the Philippines all the same, despite the need for a different casus belli. By the turn of the century, it is done absorbing North America and getting an appetite for economic and strategic expansion in the Pacific (unless it is too distracted by events in South America). Much like Japan, anti-colonial unrest in the Archipelago may become a good excuse for intervention. US conquest is going to be even easier than OTL. Since TTL America is more liberal, multi-cultural, and expansionist than OTL, its sponsorship of the Philippines' independence does not seem in the cards, but the Philippine-American War may well be averted or greatly toned down by early political compromise and the Filipino revolutionaries taking a more pro-US stance. The natural outcome seems establishment of the Commonwealth of the Philippines associated state relationship with the USA, with no promise or expectation of independence. This settlement may well become lasting or (perhaps more likely) become the preparatory stage to US statehood in a few decades. Since TTL USA absorbed all of North America, there is no good reason why it cannot do the same with the Philippines, of course after bringing the Archipelago up to speed with US standards and reorganizing it in a suitable number of states (the same happened to Mexico). Britain got a second Indian Raj with the union of Malesia and the DEI and has no good reason to meddle with the Philippines. Thanks to early unification and being stronger than OTL, Germany and Italy were able to stand up to Britain and France in the Scramble for Africa as equal competitors and build sizable colonial empires in the continent. Germany got Mittelafrika and Morocco, Italy got Tunisia, Libya, the Horn of Africa, Kenya, and Uganda. They are more satisfied colonial powers than OTL, Southeast Asia is not so relevant to their interests, and a CP intervention in the Philippines not that likely. A possible exception would be if the Germans and the Italians pushed France out of Indochina and seized its assets after the war. This might well become a springboard for German-Italian expansion in the Philippines and Siam. This would in all likelihood involve a partition or co-dominium of the area. France may well be another good candidate to grab the Philippines. TTL defeat left it even more humiliated and with greater losses than OTL, and hence with even more of an urge to compensate by colonial expansion. Moreover, German-Italian strength and influence blocked French expansion in most of North Africa and Central Africa, limiting its African gains to Algeria, most of West Africa, and Madagascar. If the French were able to keep and expand in Indochina as well after the war, they are sure to grab Siam too and likely regard the Philippines as a tempting target. Unlike Japan and America, they are unlikely to pick anti-colonialism as a pretext, but I am sure some half-decent excuse for war can be found in Paris. Differently from the other likely colonial-war cases, France and Spain do share a land border, which creates more interesting possibilities. TTL uber-revanchist France is surely on the lookout for means to increase its strength vs. the superior CP bloc. Absorbing Spain in a 'Gallic Union' would be a feasible way of doing it, and it would net the Philippines by default. This seems especially likely if France went right-wing authoritarian and restored the Bourbon on the throne as figureheads for proto-fascism. Dynastic circumstances would then create favorable circumstances for a Franco-Spanish personal union if the French sponsor the Legitimist/Carlist pretenders for both thrones. The French fascists may then use the Spanish Carlists and conservatives as a power base for a takeover, with things turning out like a combo of the Carlist Wars, the Spanish Civil War, and the 1823 invasion. Due to the presence of a sizable and ideologically-motivated Spanish fifth column, a repeat of the Peninsular War widespread resistance is unlikely. China is in even worse trouble than OTL due to a combo of its usual domestic woes and even worse colonialist encroachment (due to the foreign powers being stronger and/or more motivated to grab a piece of its pie), which in all likelihood makes the Qing failure and downfall even more traumatic and damaging. It shall be several decades before it is in any shape to project influence in its coutyard, barring a miracle recovery at the hands of super-successful reformist monarchists, Nationalists, or Communists (assuming they become a thing ITTL). Russia pretty much lost all access to the Pacific except for the mediocre Okhotsk avenue (and is all but sure to grab Xinjiang and Greater Mongolia to compensate), so it is powerless to project influence in East Asia, except as it concerns trying to gain control of China proper as a proxy through their shared border. Philippines being sold to Germany ore Japan might be a option, if Japan buys it, then in 1941 there will be no need for Japan to declare war against the United States as they can use the Philippines to invade British and Netherlands holding in Asia without need to worry of having a American control Philippines being in their flank.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 5, 2020 13:45:21 GMT
As a Filipino, what Lordroel said is true. In OTL, the German fleet was already in Manila Bay ready to take over the colony but came close to clashing with the U.S. Navy led by Admiral Dewey. If the Germans get the Philippines, it would probably be like New Guinea or the Caroline Islands and by WWI, it would fall to the Japanese. Fast forward a generation later, World War II would be different with the Japanese more focused on attacking the British and Dutch colonies towards the South.
Alternatively we can have the First Philippine Republic become independent but would lean towards the Empire of Japan. The butterflies won't be felt until the 1940s.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Dec 5, 2020 19:27:08 GMT
Philippines being sold to Germany ore Japan might be a option, if Japan buys it, then in 1941 there will be no need for Japan to declare war against the United States as they can use the Philippines to invade British and Netherlands holding in Asia without need to worry of having a American control Philippines being in their flank. I am just doubtful that Spain would be willing to part peacefully with the remaining valuable shards of its colonial empire. IOTL the Spanish showed a marked unwillingness to do so, no matter how poor their situation, and it took war and defeat to force their hands otherwise. This is one reason why ITTL I assumed it took American intervention in the Latin American Wars of Independence to make them give up the Spanish-speaking Greater Antilles rather than a US purchase offer. For the same reason, I tend to assume anybody that would be potentially willing and able to acquire the colony ITTL (Japan, USA, Germany, Italy, France) is going to do so the same way as OTL America. For Germany and Italy, TTL colonial circumstances are substantially different thanks to earlier unification and greater strength. They got everything they wanted in Europe and in Africa, so they are much less willing to indulge in colonial adventures in Southeast Asia (Germany did not bother to take a piece of New Guinea, the island is entirely British), even if China is a different matter. The only likely case is if the Germans and the Italians were mindful of grabbing the French colonial holdings in Indochina in addition to the other gains they got at the peace table. That would be a good springboard for the CP to get involved in the Philippines. It might go either way. If Indochina and the Philippines do go to the CP, in all likelihood we are going to see a partition (or less likely a codominium) of the area between Berlin and Rome, either by a North-South axis or a West-East one. ITTL the owners of Indochina are almost surely going to colonize Siam as well. TTL Japan was able to conquer and assimilate Korea, Greater Manchuria, and Karafuto much earlier and with less trouble than OTL, so development defence of that area from Russia and China shall always be their top priority strategic concern and they are much less starved for valuable land, resources, and strategic depth. OTOH, a Sino-Russian comeback in the near future is not so likely or impossible by 1900-1920, and the Japanese are surely interested in secondary expansion in Southeast Asia if a good opportunity shows up. Declining Spanish hold on the Philippines would surely be one if Spain remains as diplomatically isolated as OTL and the Americans do not jump them to the gun. Another likely case would be an opportunistic Japanese intervention if an equivalent of WWI occurs. Assuming for simplicity the same European alliance system (except for no A-H and Italy being fused at the hip with Germany), potential targets would be European colonies in Southeast Asia (as in 1941, but leaving the USA alone) and/or Russian Transbaikal. ITTL Japan replaced the Anglo-Japanese Alliance with a Tripartite Pact equivalent (esp. if the CP have no important colonies in Southeast Asia) and/or an informal strategic partnership and the USA (less pro-Entente ITTL b/c of French invasion of Mexico and possible Anglo-French intervention in the ACW). Good Japanese-American relations make a Pacific War-style clash unlikely barring a serious diplomatic estrangement. As it concerns Germany and Italy, intervention against them would require an opportunistic alliance reversal (and Japan being willing to accept a treacherous reputation) and is unlikely unless the CP have valuable colonial assets in Southeast Asia (Indochina and/or the Philippines; a couple city concessions in China won' t cut it). A 1941-style intervention against the Entente is quite likely if Britain and France control most of Southeast Asia.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 5, 2020 19:27:09 GMT
A German controlled Philippines might butterfly the scenarios that led to WWI since the British might accept the justification for Germany having a larger fleet, which is to patrol the sea lanes between the German homeland and their new acquisition in the East Asia region. This would also mean that the OTL German acquisitions of the other Pacific islands would merge with German controlled Philippines and we'd have a German East Indies in its place. Though I'm not sure exactly if the Japanese would be able to take the Philippines during WWI if there will be a WWI, or for that matter, if Britain and Germany ended up as allies instead of enemies.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Dec 5, 2020 20:14:02 GMT
As a Filipino, what Lordroel said is true. In OTL, the German fleet was already in Manila Bay ready to take over the colony but came close to clashing with the U.S. Navy led by Admiral Dewey. If the Germans get the Philippines, it would probably be like New Guinea or the Caroline Islands and by WWI, it would fall to the Japanese. Fast forward a generation later, World War II would be different with the Japanese more focused on attacking the British and Dutch colonies towards the South. Alternatively we can have the First Philippine Republic become independent but would lean towards the Empire of Japan. The butterflies won't be felt until the 1940s. I am more familiar with Subic Bay & Alongapo than Manila bay and Manila. I have very fond memories of Pauline's and the East end.
I do concur with gillan1220 that a German Occupation of the PI would not be long until the Japanese would be control of the PI.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 5, 2020 20:19:30 GMT
As a Filipino, what Lordroel said is true. In OTL, the German fleet was already in Manila Bay ready to take over the colony but came close to clashing with the U.S. Navy led by Admiral Dewey. If the Germans get the Philippines, it would probably be like New Guinea or the Caroline Islands and by WWI, it would fall to the Japanese. Fast forward a generation later, World War II would be different with the Japanese more focused on attacking the British and Dutch colonies towards the South. Alternatively we can have the First Philippine Republic become independent but would lean towards the Empire of Japan. The butterflies won't be felt until the 1940s. I am more familiar with Subic Bay & Alongapo than Manila bay and Manila. I have very fond memories of Pauline's and the East end.
I do concur with gillan1220 that a German Occupation of the PI would not be long until the Japanese would be control of the PI.
I do wonder, without the PI as a US Territory/possession if the USA would have been very interested in the West Pac in 1898. I'd think our colonial ambitions would be limited to Central and South America. To be exact, a canal between the Atlantic and the Pacific would be the driving force of our foreign policy.
What do you folks think of this ATL. At peace talks in Paris POTUS McKinley wants just a long-term treaty for use of Subic Bay as a naval base; same as Cuba's Guantanamo Bay. The Filipino government agrees, and asks for a treaty with the US similar to the one that the Cubans were getting - USA grantee PI Independence.
McKinley decides a coaling station was not worth that pledge and neither was a guerilla war.
As I see it, despite a successful revolt against the Spanish, and declaring their independence on June 12, 1898, the PI was doomed to lose their independence to the geopolitical forces of imperialism. This begs the question who would have taken the Philippines if not the USA?
How about Great Britain? The Brit empire had more power in East Asia than any of the others and strategically could not allow anyone, especially its main European enemy Germany, to cut off lines of communication between British colonies in Malaya/ Singapore/Hong Kong and Australia/New Zealand.
Maybe, at the Paris peace talks, the Brits back channel McKinley with a deal. if you don't want the PI, we will take it, so the Germans can't and the Brits lease a coaling station to the USN as part of the deal for say 99 years?
Seems i have to drag this article out of the dept of the Pre-1900 board: Under the Iron Cross: What if Germany ruled the Philippines
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Dec 5, 2020 20:44:08 GMT
As a Filipino, what Lordroel said is true. In OTL, the German fleet was already in Manila Bay ready to take over the colony but came close to clashing with the U.S. Navy led by Admiral Dewey. If the Germans get the Philippines, it would probably be like New Guinea or the Caroline Islands and by WWI, it would fall to the Japanese. Fast forward a generation later, World War II would be different with the Japanese more focused on attacking the British and Dutch colonies towards the South. Alternatively we can have the First Philippine Republic become independent but would lean towards the Empire of Japan. The butterflies won't be felt until the 1940s. ITTL the pattern of European colonialism is different. Britain owns Malaysia and Indonesia since the Napoleonic Wars. Germany and Italy unified in 1848 and got stronger than OTL. They got everything they wanted in Africa, therefore they are less interested in Oceania (no holding in New Guinea or the Pacific Islands). The main possible exception is if they grabbed French Indochina after the Franco-German-Italian War. If they did, they also grabbed Siam and and might well seize the Philippines as you describe. In such a case, assume a German-Italian partition of the booty. This might well make the CP a potential expansion target for Japan, and less attractive as allies for Japan (in such a case, America is the obvious alternative). Otherwise, if France keeps Indochina (and Siam), Spain keeps the Philippines, and Britain holds the Malaysia and Indonesia, all of the them become good targets for Japanese expansionism in favorable circumstances. ITTL the Dutch colonial empire does not exist anymore; Britain absorbed it after Napoleon as a compensation for the loss of Canada. No matter how much Spain may realistically weaken, the Filipino revolutionaries alone are extremely unlikely to give them the boot by themselves without external aid. If they lose the colony, it is because a stronger seafaring power (Germany + Italy, France, Japan, America) kicked them out. If it gets to be the Japanese, the Philippines may well become a client state of the Japanese Empire and a potential nucleus of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere if and when favorable circumstances arise. TTL Japan is a much more benevolent imperial overlord, so the GEACPS is going to be rather more like an East Asian EU/NATO than the OTL figleaf for brutal Japanese dominion (although Tokyo is still going to call the shots). The butterflies you mention are going to first become important by the time the WWI equivalent occurs. It may well turn out to be a 1941 version without US involvement (or even with a CP USA; TTL America is no great friend of Britain and France). Japan already got most of what it wanted (Greater Manchuria and Karafuto) from Russia. However, it may well do a double strike North/South to get the rest (Transbaikal) and cut down Russia another notch.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Dec 5, 2020 21:13:59 GMT
A German controlled Philippines might butterfly the scenarios that led to WWI since the British might accept the justification for Germany having a larger fleet, which is to patrol the sea lanes between the German homeland and their new acquisition in the East Asia region. This would also mean that the OTL German acquisitions of the other Pacific islands would merge with German controlled Philippines and we'd have a German East Indies in its place. Though I'm not sure exactly if the Japanese would be able to take the Philippines during WWI if there will be a WWI, or for that matter, if Britain and Germany ended up as allies instead of enemies. ITTL a CP Britain is theoretically possible but even more difficult than OTL, because the balance of power is more skewed in favor of the CP. Germany has all the OTL territory (minus Posen and North Schleswig) plus Austria, Bohemia-Moravia, Carniola, Luxemburg, Briey-Longvy-Belfort, Morocco, and Mittelafrika. Quite possibly the rest of Lorraine too. It unified earlier, so it is stronger than ever economically and militarly (and more liberal). Italy benefited in a similar way but even more so from the same circumstances; it became the rough equivalent of OTL France. It got everything it wanted from fallen Austria and France plus Albania, Tunisia, Libya, the Horn of Africa, Kenya, and Uganda. Quite possibly the French Riviera too. The CP (Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Poland) formed a close and solid EU/NATO-style bloc after their rise in the 1848 revolutions and the expanded Crimean War. Therefore the rest of the world treats them as one most of the time, kinda like the OTL Western bloc. Despite their liberal-democratic character, the British may well turn to fear them all the same for the usual anti-hegemonic reasons. The alternative would require Britain to regard France and Russia as even more of a threat. TTL France may easily turn proto-fascist (say a mix of Bourbon restoration and Boulangism) but is the underdog in comparison to the CP bloc (and the last war decisively proved it). Russia is not too different from OTL (balance being pushed back into 1939 borders after the 1848 Revolutions and the expanded Crimean War with greater gains in the Russo-Turkish War and from China) and Japan beat them even more decisively than OTL. For that matter, both Germany and Italy have ample justification to build large navies ITTL b/c of their extensive colonial assets in Africa. I dunno if the British are going to accept this as a sufficient justification.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Dec 5, 2020 23:40:42 GMT
As a Filipino, what Lordroel said is true. In OTL, the German fleet was already in Manila Bay ready to take over the colony but came close to clashing with the U.S. Navy led by Admiral Dewey. If the Germans get the Philippines, it would probably be like New Guinea or the Caroline Islands and by WWI, it would fall to the Japanese. Fast forward a generation later, World War II would be different with the Japanese more focused on attacking the British and Dutch colonies towards the South. Alternatively we can have the First Philippine Republic become independent but would lean towards the Empire of Japan. The butterflies won't be felt until the 1940s. I am more familiar with Subic Bay & Alongapo than Manila bay and Manila. I have very fond memories of Pauline's and the East end.
I do concur with gillan1220 that a German Occupation of the PI would not be long until the Japanese would be control of the PI.
Quite possibly. ITTL Japan looks for an ally that would be able and willing to back them against hostile European powers and not too involved in colonialism in East Asia. This rules out Russia, France, and Britain for various reasons. If Germany and Italy lack important colonial assets in Japan's turf, they are likely to be regarded as good potential allies, much like in WWII. If the CP muscle out France and Spain from Indochina and the Philippines, the equation may easily change and the CP be regarded as potential enemies rather than good ally options. In such a case, the obvious alternative according to TTL circumstances is America. ITTL the Japanese and the Americans are rather more satisfied thanks to their gains in the respective home turfs (Northeast Asia and North America), and more likely to establish a functional compromise about their strategic and economic interests in China and the Pacific. The post-WWII relationship may well arise two generations earlier, only with both sides being stronger.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Dec 6, 2020 6:49:08 GMT
Another good PoD that might have led to a complete butterfly of the events leading to the Philippine Revolution of 1896 would be in 1871 when Spain actually gets a Hohenzollern King (forgot who it was going to be the candidate), and a couple of years down the road with a worsened Spanish economic crisis, Spain is forced to sell the entirety of its East Indies colonies to Germany.
Though how the Germans would handle the Filipino insurgency, with the Herero example, we might see a worse German atrocities in the Philippines that might be on par with the WWII Nazi atrocities or the infamous Belgian atrocities in the Congo, given the German reputation for handling such insurgencies. Moreover, since Rizal and the elites at that time had actually wanted German aid in expelling the Spanish, the German colonial period might see more radical elements of Philippine independence movements leaning towards Japan as their protector. At best, you'd have the Philippines be a bit more improved with German colonial administration than American. At worst, you might have an even bigger body count from dead Filipino insurgents that would result in Filipinos being driven towards Pan-Asian cooperation.
Likewise, an independent First Philippine Republic that is pro-Japanese might have different effects on the whole East Asia region, though I did speculate that the Japanese might do to the Philippines what they did to Korea and Manchuria (turn them into protectorates before annexing them).
For the US to not annex the Philippines, you would need someone like William Jennings Bryan to win the 1900 US presidential election (since the Anti-Imperialist League was a strong factor in the Democrats' main campaign here), plus a stronger influence of left-wing policies on said League.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 6, 2020 10:58:58 GMT
Another good PoD that might have led to a complete butterfly of the events leading to the Philippine Revolution of 1896 would be in 1871 when Spain actually gets a Hohenzollern King (forgot who it was going to be the candidate), and a couple of years down the road with a worsened Spanish economic crisis, Spain is forced to sell the entirety of its East Indies colonies to Germany. Though how the Germans would handle the Filipino insurgency, with the Herero example, we might see a worse German atrocities in the Philippines that might be on par with the WWII Nazi atrocities or the infamous Belgian atrocities in the Congo, given the German reputation for handling such insurgencies. Moreover, since Rizal and the elites at that time had actually wanted German aid in expelling the Spanish, the German colonial period might see more radical elements of Philippine independence movements leaning towards Japan as their protector. At best, you'd have the Philippines be a bit more improved with German colonial administration than American. At worst, you might have an even bigger body count from dead Filipino insurgents that would result in Filipinos being driven towards Pan-Asian cooperation. Likewise, an independent First Philippine Republic that is pro-Japanese might have different effects on the whole East Asia region, though I did speculate that the Japanese might do to the Philippines what they did to Korea and Manchuria (turn them into protectorates before annexing them). For the US to not annex the Philippines, you would need someone like William Jennings Bryan to win the 1900 US presidential election (since the Anti-Imperialist League was a strong factor in the Democrats' main campaign here), plus a stronger influence of left-wing policies on said League. If the Hohenzollern King was reforming Spain's colonies, then definitely the Philippine Revolution is butterflied away. Jose Rizal would probably make it to the 20th century and those Philippine national figures would take up different political roles. I'm not if the Japanese can annex the whole Philippines. That would pose a whole lot of logistical problems for them since it is farther from Japan and has 7,107 islands to cover. Japan was not in the position to project far beyond her shores in this period of history. Manchuria and Korea were much closer hence it was much easier for Japan to occupy and/or annex.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Dec 6, 2020 13:36:27 GMT
gillan1220 what do you think the Moros would have to say about Rizal's Philippine Republic?
I would think they would be as unwilling to accept German occupation as they did US.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Dec 6, 2020 14:15:47 GMT
If Rizal was kept Alive there would have been no Philippines, as there would have been a Luzon nationalism instead, since the story of what Rizal has been planning to write in his third book is about and related Luzon's history, keeping Rizal alive would have prevented the 1898 war.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 6, 2020 14:34:17 GMT
The Moros have been fighting foreign colonizers since the Spanish. The Germans would be no different. In our timeline, the Moro conflict that began in 1969 continued well into the 21st century. Even before that, there were Moros that fought the Japanese, Americans, and Filipinos at the same time during World War II. If we go back to history, it took until June 15, 1913 for the Moro Rebellion to quelled under General John Pershing. For sure the Moros would not accept the Germans, seeing them as another colonizer. Just like the Americans in OTL, the Germans will find itself in a war of attrition with these Muslim majority in Mindanao. It kinda reminds me of this quote from The Man in the High Castle Season 4 where Childan describes the Black Communist Rebellion which draws parallel to the OTL Muslim separatists in the Philippines. If Rizal was kept Alive there would have been no Philippines, as there would have been a Luzon nationalism instead, since the story of what Rizal has been planning to write in his third book is about and related Luzon's history, keeping Rizal alive would have prevented the 1898 war. The butterflies would be interesting. Rizal actually did not favor independence but political reform. He knew the dangers of what early independence for the Philippines would be like. In OTL, it was messy with so much power struggles and infighting. Of course, it probably means Rizal won't be the Philippines' National Hero in this timeline.
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