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Post by american2006 on Nov 13, 2020 20:36:41 GMT
What would happen if Aliens settled the America’s in 1480? Let’s say they are as peaceful as the average nation-state, and they replace native Americans. How does Europe and Asia react?
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 24, 2020 15:44:01 GMT
What would happen if Aliens settled the America’s in 1480? Let’s say they are as peaceful as the average nation-state, and they replace native Americans. How does Europe and Asia react? Well if the aliens have interplanetary space travel they are way too far technologically advanced for 15th century Europe and Asia to do anything but hope they stay in America and leave Europe and Asia alone. That would be a very slim hope as oceans are no barrier to space travelers.
Given that the aliens "replaced" the Native Americans they are capable of genocide. Nothing good can come of that for Europe and Asia.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2020 15:49:30 GMT
What would happen if Aliens settled the America’s in 1480? Let’s say they are as peaceful as the average nation-state, and they replace native Americans. How does Europe and Asia react? Question replace in killing them ore sending them to a different planet. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 24, 2020 16:11:40 GMT
What would happen if Aliens settled the America’s in 1480? Let’s say they are as peaceful as the average nation-state, and they replace native Americans. How does Europe and Asia react? Question replace in killing them ore sending them to a different planet. For Europe and Asia's sake, I would prefer your solution shipmate.
So it begs the question of what would be the consequences for the social order of earth by technological "contamination".
Religion sure would be in for some real scrutiny, at least.
Being human (although there are those who would question that assertion  ) I can not help but be very pessimistic for earth given our history of what happens when a technologically advanced society comes into contact with a primitive one.
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Post by american2006 on Nov 24, 2020 16:57:56 GMT
What would happen if Aliens settled the America’s in 1480? Let’s say they are as peaceful as the average nation-state, and they replace native Americans. How does Europe and Asia react? Question replace in killing them ore sending them to a different planet. Let's say sending them to a different planet. |
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Post by american2006 on Nov 24, 2020 16:58:50 GMT
Question replace in killing them ore sending them to a different planet. For Europe and Asia's sake, I would prefer your solution shipmate.
So it begs the question of what would be the consequences for the social order of earth by technological "contamination".
Religion sure would be in for some real scrutiny, at least.
Being human (although there are those who would question that assertion ) I can not help but be very pessimistic for earth given our history of what happens when a technologically advanced society comes into contact with a primitive one.
that sounds very not good. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2020 23:23:39 GMT
Question replace in killing them ore sending them to a different planet. For Europe and Asia's sake, I would prefer your solution shipmate.
So it begs the question of what would be the consequences for the social order of earth by technological "contamination".
Religion sure would be in for some real scrutiny, at least.
Being human (although there are those who would question that assertion ) I can not help but be very pessimistic for earth given our history of what happens when a technologically advanced society comes into contact with a primitive one.
I would agree its going to be pretty devastating to the old world culture and economy even if their trying to be friendly and helpful. Contact with a so much more advanced society, let alone an alien one in both meanings of the world will do that.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 25, 2020 1:05:45 GMT
I would assume the more advanced society would be extremely curious about the primitives.
IMO, they would conduct a covert and thorough recon before they would make personal contact with the primitives.
This recon would bring back a lot of biological, social and technical info that would be built into a model of the primitives that would be studied thoroughly. From this model the advanced civilization would determine the best course of action for dealing with the primitives.
Here we have three choices:
1. The advance civilization decides to exploit the primitives. This is the most human like approach.
2. The advance civilization decides to help the primitives develop into a more advanced civilization.
3. The advance civilization decides the primitives are not worth much and leaves them to their own evolution.
Imo, the most interesting would be 2. The trick would be how to do it and not destroy the unique characteristics that make the humans interesting.
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Post by american2006 on Nov 25, 2020 2:32:33 GMT
I would assume the more advanced society would be extremely curious about the primitives.
IMO, they would conduct a covert and thorough recon before they would make personal contact with the primitives.
This recon would bring back a lot of biological, social and technical info that would be built into a model of the primitives that would be studied thoroughly. From this model the advanced civilization would determine the best course of action for dealing with the primitives.
Here we have three choices:
1. The advance civilization decides to exploit the primitives. This is the most human like approach.
2. The advance civilization decides to help the primitives develop into a more advanced civilization.
3. The advance civilization decides the primitives are not worth much and leaves them to their own evolution.
Imo, the most interesting would be 2. The trick would be how to do it and not destroy the unique characteristics that make the humans interesting. Agreed. Maybe they would feel sorry for us? Or we would seem like how they were at a certain point. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 27, 2020 1:44:16 GMT
Agreed. Maybe they would feel sorry for us? Or we would seem like how they were at a certain point. Now that I am enjoying the afterglow of a very good Thanksgiving dinner with a second snifter of Cognac I feel bold enough to submit some possible scenarios.
I am basing the following on the work of Allen Tough Professor Emeritus at the University of Toronto.
Allen suggests that a highly advanced alien civilization, remembering overcoming its own history of bloodshed and pillage, would be likely to try to help humans rather than to destroy them. He sees three possible courses of action benevolent aliens might employ:
1. Intervention only to avert catastrophe: this would involve occasional limited intervention to stop events that could destroy human civilization completely, such as nuclear war or asteroid impact.
2. Advice and action with consent: under this approach, the aliens would be more closely involved in human affairs, advising world leaders and acting with their consent to protect against danger.
3. Forcible corrective action: the aliens could require humanity to reduce major risks against its will, intending to help humans advance to the next stage of civilization.
All pose great risk to we earthlings. Even if an advanced alien civilization wished to help humanity, humans could suffer from a loss of identity and confidence due to the technological and cultural prowess of the aliens. Disaster for earth is likely unless a friendly civilization structures its contact with humanity in such a way as to minimize unintended consequences and even then Sh!t happens to the best of us.
Well that's it for tonight.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 27, 2020 13:12:58 GMT
oscssw , One problem their going to have is that the western part of the old world is dominated by Abrahamic religions that place humanity at the top of the totem pole so to speak. To have another intelligent species appearing and claiming they know better than us is going to offend [and by their existence threaten] a hell of a lot of the established power in the western areas. Expect at least a few crusades and jihads being called against those demons. Not sure how things will go down in eastern Asia or Africa where alien contact might be tolerated more.
A lot also depends on what the social attitudes of the aliens are. Its very unlikely they will be a close match to the modern western world view so belief in modern human rights, sexual or other forms of equality or many other things could well be radically different. A good example here is the alien invaders in Tuttledove's World war series, where they have a deep worship of an imperial government. Or don't forget, given how deeply its embedded in human history, that they could even think of slavery - not necessarily based on any racial criteria - as natural and legal. As such even an alien culture that wants to 'help bring humanity up' to its standards could have values and intents that would be radically different to what we in the modern western orientated world might like. In such a case they might actually be a lot close to the cultures of 1480 Earth than we are.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 28, 2020 15:23:15 GMT
oscssw , One problem their going to have is that the western part of the old world is dominated by Abrahamic religions that place humanity at the top of the totem pole so to speak. To have another intelligent species appearing and claiming they know better than us is going to offend [and by their existence threaten] a hell of a lot of the established power in the western areas. Expect at least a few crusades and jihads being called against those demons. Not sure how things will go down in eastern Asia or Africa where alien contact might be tolerated more.
A lot also depends on what the social attitudes of the aliens are. Its very unlikely they will be a close match to the modern western world view so belief in modern human rights, sexual or other forms of equality or many other things could well be radically different. A good example here is the alien invaders in Tuttledove's World war series, where they have a deep worship of an imperial government. Or don't forget, given how deeply its embedded in human history, that they could even think of slavery - not necessarily based on any racial criteria - as natural and legal. As such even an alien culture that wants to 'help bring humanity up' to its standards could have values and intents that would be radically different to what we in the modern western orientated world might like. In such a case they might actually be a lot close to the cultures of 1480 Earth than we are.
Steve
All good points Steve.
Begs the question. Are similar cultural attributes to 15 century humans creditable in a race capable of interstellar travel? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 28, 2020 16:42:17 GMT
oscssw , One problem their going to have is that the western part of the old world is dominated by Abrahamic religions that place humanity at the top of the totem pole so to speak. To have another intelligent species appearing and claiming they know better than us is going to offend [and by their existence threaten] a hell of a lot of the established power in the western areas. Expect at least a few crusades and jihads being called against those demons. Not sure how things will go down in eastern Asia or Africa where alien contact might be tolerated more.
A lot also depends on what the social attitudes of the aliens are. Its very unlikely they will be a close match to the modern western world view so belief in modern human rights, sexual or other forms of equality or many other things could well be radically different. A good example here is the alien invaders in Tuttledove's World war series, where they have a deep worship of an imperial government. Or don't forget, given how deeply its embedded in human history, that they could even think of slavery - not necessarily based on any racial criteria - as natural and legal. As such even an alien culture that wants to 'help bring humanity up' to its standards could have values and intents that would be radically different to what we in the modern western orientated world might like. In such a case they might actually be a lot close to the cultures of 1480 Earth than we are.
Steve
All good points Steve.
Begs the question. Are similar cultural attributes to 15 century humans creditable in a race capable of interstellar travel?
Might depend on what attributes. I can't really see anything like 15thC religious views lasting into an interstellar period but then could be affected by my own beliefs. I used slavery because the modern formal hostility towards it in the western world especially is distinctly an oddity compared to most of human history as we know it. Ditto with the idea of democracy and individual human rights as most of the larger and more settled states have been either political or religious autocracies.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 29, 2020 19:56:55 GMT
I wonder if the best method of positively influencing the primitives would be to introduce beneficial technology in such a way they would not know it was a gift from the aliens?
Maybe the aliens use their advanced tech to isolate the Americas from terrestrial exploration and then send in their agents, cunningly disguised as locals, to plant the seeds of advanced technology. I would think selection of current indigenous technology that they could enhanced and improved to materially effect the planet for the best would be ideal.
Another approach would be to take some of the native's most intelligent childrenand raise them benevolently so that they would identify with the aliens as a force for good. Enroll them in schools in the Americas that would tech them advanced but not too advanced technology. Then send them back to "help" their fellow earthlings to advance.
Have to find a cunning way of keeping the powers that be not to pronounce them witches and have them burned at the stake.
Question is, which specific technologies would the cunning aliens choose to improve?
Agriculture, Medicine, metallurgy,hydro and/or steam power or something else?
Do I sound too much like Black Adder's Baldrick?
Baldrick: I have a cunning plan.
Edmund: Yes, perhaps, but I think I may have a more cunning one.
Baldrick: Well, mine’s pretty cunning, My Lord.
Edmund: Yes, but not cunning enough, I imagine.
Baldrick: Well, that depends how cunning you mean, My Lord.
Edmund: Well, pretty damn cunning. How cunning do you think I mean?
Baldrick: Well, mine’s quite cunning, My Lord.
Edmund: (fed up) Alright, then, let’s hear it! Let’s hear what’s so damn cunning!
Baldrick: Right, well, first of all, you get him to come with you–
Edmund: Oh yes, very cunning. Brilliantly cunning. I ask
him to come with me and then…then stab him, perhaps. How cunning can you get?
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) I can not help but be very pessimistic for earth given our history of what happens when a technologically advanced society comes into contact with a primitive one.