oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 10, 2020 20:58:44 GMT
This is an oldie but a goodie. I like time travel novels, especially those that go back in time. A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was my first time travel novel and i enjoyed it immensely. I would be amazed if Leo Frankowski, author of The Cross-Time Engineer, was not inspired by that tale.
For those who have not had the pleasure of reading the series here is a brief summary from Wikapedia.
Unlike Twain's Yankee—who ultimately failed and saw all his efforts come to nought—Conrad Stargard is eminently successful in creating a new timeline in which a technologically advanced Poland becomes the dominant power in thirteenth-century Europe and Stargard himself is the most powerful man in Poland (though he chooses not to dethrone the King).
One crucial difference is that in the depiction of the staunchly atheist Twain, the Catholic Church is dead-set against the interloper from the future and all his works, and it is the clergy which ultimately plays a major role in his downfall. Conversely, immediately upon his arrival in the past, Conrad Stargard meets and befriends a sympathetic Franciscan—who later on rises fast in the Church hierarchy, parallel to Stargard's own climb to eminence, and who ensures that the Church would welcome the time-traveler's New Order (and gain some considerable advantages to itself in the process). However, their official inquisition regarding Conrad (to decide if he is an agent of God or an agent of the Devil) never gets anywhere, due to the Church's excruciatingly slow bureaucracy.
The main character Conrad Stargard is a Polish engineer from the year 1986. After getting drunk and falling asleep in a time machine, he is transported back in time to the year 1231. Conrad, familiar with Poland's history, knows that in 10 years the Mongols will arrive and kill most of the population of Europe. After befriending a local monk, and a failed attempt at becoming a scribe, he takes a job as a bodyguard to a merchant. Due to his skill at arms and mercy in saving the infant of bandits he had slain, he impresses the local count, Count Lambert. It is discovered at this point that Conrad's "amazing warhorse" and "superb weapons" were all planted by his distant cousin who invented the time-machines and wished to help Conrad. However, due to causality, Conrad cannot be simply removed from the past, but he can be "assisted". After improving Count Lambert's industrial base by building a cloth factory and multipurpose windmill, Conrad is eventually granted land on which he can build his industrial base to defend Poland.
The travails that occur as Conrad attempts to establish the industrial base that he will need for his planned defense of Poland form one of the most interesting aspects of the tale. He also establishes the thirteenth century equivalent to the Playboy Club, builds a new city, gains several new lovers and elevates his status in the ruling hierarchy of the country.
Another interesting aspect is Conrad's establishment of an official Polish army using 20th century training techniques he learned during his service as an officer in the Polish Air Force.
The four years prior to Mongol invasion are crucial. Conrad begins a relationship with Countess Francine, the French-born paramour of the murdered Duke Henryk. He establishes a riverboat navy and an air force. Lambert tries to force Conrad to marry his daughter, threatening to strip him of his lands and title if he refuses. Disgusted, Conrad decides to leave Poland and travel alone to France. He stops to visit Francine, who convinces him to marry her and resume his position. After the wedding, a council of war is called by young Duke Henryk (son of the murdered duke). Count Conrad disagrees with the duke's battle plans, as they would require him to abandon his own lands and withdraw west to Legnica, where his infantry could not maneuver effectively without the steamboats and railroads he built. Other lords of Poland's eastern lands are likewise opposed the duke's idea, but to disobey would be high treason. Conrad ends up fighting the war by himself. After returning to the Warriors' School to finish preparations for the war, he enlists the aid of Count Lambert, the commander of Eagle Nest where they have created scout aircraft, in his treason. Lambert readily agrees, believing Conrad to be answering to a higher authority. The war starts with the battle of the Vistula and finishes with the slaughter of the Mongols at the battle of Sandomierz, apparently ending the war.
Any interest in dissecting this series?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 11, 2020 11:49:32 GMT
This is an oldie but a goodie. I like time travel novels, especially those that go back in time. A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was my first time travel novel and i enjoyed it immensely. I would be amazed if Leo Frankowski, author of The Cross-Time Engineer, was not inspired by that tale.
For those who have not had the pleasure of reading the series here is a brief summary from Wikapedia.
Unlike Twain's Yankee—who ultimately failed and saw all his efforts come to nought—Conrad Stargard is eminently successful in creating a new timeline in which a technologically advanced Poland becomes the dominant power in thirteenth-century Europe and Stargard himself is the most powerful man in Poland (though he chooses not to dethrone the King).
One crucial difference is that in the depiction of the staunchly atheist Twain, the Catholic Church is dead-set against the interloper from the future and all his works, and it is the clergy which ultimately plays a major role in his downfall. Conversely, immediately upon his arrival in the past, Conrad Stargard meets and befriends a sympathetic Franciscan—who later on rises fast in the Church hierarchy, parallel to Stargard's own climb to eminence, and who ensures that the Church would welcome the time-traveler's New Order (and gain some considerable advantages to itself in the process). However, their official inquisition regarding Conrad (to decide if he is an agent of God or an agent of the Devil) never gets anywhere, due to the Church's excruciatingly slow bureaucracy.
The main character Conrad Stargard is a Polish engineer from the year 1986. After getting drunk and falling asleep in a time machine, he is transported back in time to the year 1231. Conrad, familiar with Poland's history, knows that in 10 years the Mongols will arrive and kill most of the population of Europe. After befriending a local monk, and a failed attempt at becoming a scribe, he takes a job as a bodyguard to a merchant. Due to his skill at arms and mercy in saving the infant of bandits he had slain, he impresses the local count, Count Lambert. It is discovered at this point that Conrad's "amazing warhorse" and "superb weapons" were all planted by his distant cousin who invented the time-machines and wished to help Conrad. However, due to causality, Conrad cannot be simply removed from the past, but he can be "assisted". After improving Count Lambert's industrial base by building a cloth factory and multipurpose windmill, Conrad is eventually granted land on which he can build his industrial base to defend Poland.
The travails that occur as Conrad attempts to establish the industrial base that he will need for his planned defense of Poland form one of the most interesting aspects of the tale. He also establishes the thirteenth century equivalent to the Playboy Club, builds a new city, gains several new lovers and elevates his status in the ruling hierarchy of the country.
Another interesting aspect is Conrad's establishment of an official Polish army using 20th century training techniques he learned during his service as an officer in the Polish Air Force.
The four years prior to Mongol invasion are crucial. Conrad begins a relationship with Countess Francine, the French-born paramour of the murdered Duke Henryk. He establishes a riverboat navy and an air force. Lambert tries to force Conrad to marry his daughter, threatening to strip him of his lands and title if he refuses. Disgusted, Conrad decides to leave Poland and travel alone to France. He stops to visit Francine, who convinces him to marry her and resume his position. After the wedding, a council of war is called by young Duke Henryk (son of the murdered duke). Count Conrad disagrees with the duke's battle plans, as they would require him to abandon his own lands and withdraw west to Legnica, where his infantry could not maneuver effectively without the steamboats and railroads he built. Other lords of Poland's eastern lands are likewise opposed the duke's idea, but to disobey would be high treason. Conrad ends up fighting the war by himself. After returning to the Warriors' School to finish preparations for the war, he enlists the aid of Count Lambert, the commander of Eagle Nest where they have created scout aircraft, in his treason. Lambert readily agrees, believing Conrad to be answering to a higher authority. The war starts with the battle of the Vistula and finishes with the slaughter of the Mongols at the battle of Sandomierz, apparently ending the war.
Any interest in dissecting this series?
Interesting. Not sure how practical, even with outside aid, it is to get to scout a/c in a decade but steam powered equipment and possibly as importantly simple flintlock's should be practical. Possibly also knowledge of later military training and organisation would be as important. Also as there are references to in your description, building up an economic base to support both research and fund such developments. Plus as you point out keeping the church on-side or at least not neutral.
Did the novel take the story beyond the defeat of that Mongol force? I notice the 'apparently' at the end of the description. If the battles pretty much destroy the Golden Horde then even without a potential superpower Poland that's going to have some big butterflies. The eastern Slavs won't be under Mongol domination so long which could affect/avert the rise of Moscow while conversely the position of the Ilkhanate Mongols in the ME could be improved without the hostility of their northern kin.
Of course there is the old problem of the grandfather paradox, unless we're assuming this is a parallel universe. Also to be accurate while a large chunk of the east, the Russian states, Poland and Hungary suffered heavily - neither Poland or Hungary will do so here - the invasion didn't significantly affect the rest of Europe demographically so "kill most of the population of Europe" is an exaggeration.
Sounds like a classic AH story albeit probably with more depth than most. 
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 12, 2020 16:51:10 GMT
The series goes on after the war and evolves around Conrad trying to live a normal life, not as "The Leader".
As for the grand father paradox; it is not mentioned and neither is an alternate reality.
My own historical knowledge of the the middle ages, accept for ships, navigation and seafaring,is pretty sparse.
I was hoping the real historians here could run with the basic accomplishments of Conrad and project how they would effect the future.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 13, 2020 11:57:24 GMT
The series goes on after the war and evolves around Conrad trying to live a normal life, not as "The Leader".
As for the grand father paradox; it is not mentioned and neither is an alternate reality.
My own historical knowledge of the the middle ages, accept for ships, navigation and seafaring,is pretty sparse.
I was hoping the real historians here could run with the basic accomplishments of Conrad and project how they would effect the future.
Well I don't know if I'm a real historian but the obvious points are if he's got reliable enough steam engines for trains and boats and some sort for scout a/c those are huge advances. Depending on how fast the knowledge spreads you could see such technology revolutionising Europe while if Poland so desires it could end up master of most of what's now OTL European Russia as the Rus states were faltering before and have already been hit by the Mongols. Whether they could hold all that land and how quickly they could both control it and suppress any further steppe attacks - as the Mongols could well return and there are others to follow them historically. However with that level of technology they should have fairly reliable gunpowder weapons at the very least and with reasonably modern age organised and trained forces that would be pretty much unstoppable. [However that would also mean revolutionary social changes. The dominance of the church probably can't survive such changes nor could the power of the nobility, at least unless the noble in question is really going to look after their people].
Also hopefully he will be spreading knowledge in other areas, especially such as medication and health. If nothing else there is that other Mongol gift to Europe - the Bubonic Plague - that is likely to turn up sooner or later as well as other diseases of the time. Plus better knowledge of selective breeding for crops and plants. Of course how he can pass on all this knowledge without being seen as divine/demonic could be another issue. If he can get some printing press starting as well that would be a huge factor, which again would prompt a need for greater education and literacy - and a desire by more conservative powers to control such technology.
Furthermore some basic knowledge he has includes that someone put land between Europe and eastern Asia so a quick trip across the Atlantic will run into a problem.  Of course that is likely to prompt a race for the Americas by anyone with a suitable port and maritime capacity once news spreads. The tech gulf between the continents is somewhat less but there would still be the big issue of the disease imbalance that is likely to devastate the Americas.
Another point, especially given the power he's just displayed and he's managed to keep the church on line so far is he could be asked to go on crusade. Both against the nearby pagans or probably sooner or later for the liberation of Jerusalem.
Anyway a quick dump of initial points and ideas that would have big impacts in both the short and longer term.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 13, 2020 15:36:00 GMT
Food for thought Steve, thanks.
Being a sailor your comments about "Of course that is likely to prompt a race for the Americas by anyone with a suitable port and maritime capacity once news spreads."
We are talking 1291 so the compass is in use in by europen sailors.
However, the ocean going ability of midevil round ship of that period worries me. I don't think it was seaworthy enough to hazard the N. Atlantic on a commercially viable basis. I also have real doubts they were large enough to carry enough supplies form the crews and have hold space for economically usable cargoes.
In 1291 the Cog was about the best European built ship in use. The cog is a type of ship that appeared in the medieval period in the 10th century and it was widely spread across the sea into the 12th century. It was mainly made from oak and the particular timber that could be found in the Baltic region of Prussia. Cog’s were used primarily for trade in medieval Europe, especially in the Baltic Sea by the Hanseatic League. A cog could be around 45 to 75 ft in length and it could carry around 200 tons.
It was a round ship that had a laid flat bottom but has overlapped strakes near the posts. They had a full clincker planking covering the ides and double-clenched iron nails for the planks. The keel was thicker then the strake, cogs could also used to have open hulls and they could have been rowed in short distances if needed.
The cog rig was square with very little ability to run close hauled and therefore at the mercy of contrary winds and N. Atlantic storms. IMO, a death trap for reaching America and totally unsuited as a transatlantic cargo vessel.
Midevil European ocean navigation was totally inadequate. You might be able to hit a continent but getting anywhere near a port repeatedly was totally out of the question.
Clumbus' 1492 ships were caravels, a much more seaworthy and larger than the midevil round ships of 1291.
The midevil ships which served well on the Mediterranean with its relatively near shores and modest distances between ports were not well-fitted to ocean exploration.
The design of the caravel was especially suited to distant exploration of the seas. Their "lanteen" (slanting or triangular sails) made the caravel very maneuverable and capable of sailing into the wind. A small vessel, the caravel housed about twenty crew members. Sleeping accommodations were generally topside with the possibility of going below in the event of inclement weather. The caravel had a length of approximately 70 beam and beam width of 25 feet. Weight was about 50 tons with two or three masts adorned with lanteen sails. Of course, the caravel could readily be square-rigged as well, i.e. square instead of triangular sails raised on the masts. The Nina and the Pinta were typical cargo ships acquired by the Crown from the city of Palos in consideration for a fine owed to the Queen.
Compared to the caravels, Nina and Pinta, the Santa Maria was a "tub" with it ponderous mass, shape, and keel depth. However, it had the advantage of expanded cargo carrying volume as well as stability in heavy storms. But, of course, it was anything but a coastal craft. Its deep draft required it stay safely from shoals adjacent shorelines.
Given that No one knows exactly what Columbus's mother-ship was like. The best we can do is to examine similar ships of the era. It is known the ship had a length of 75 feet with a beam (width) of 25 feet. Her draft (depth beneath the surface of the ocean) was 6 feet. There were five sails attached to the vessel's three masts. Most of the driving force of the craft was from the largest mainsail with the remaining sails used for "trimming." Though many mariners viewed the Santa Maria as an adequate vessel for her day, Columbus was not so kind with his assessment, "a dull sailer and unfit for discovery." Because of the deep draft (6 feet), the vessel was not suited for sailing near reefs and shallow island waters. In fact, the craft ran aground off Hispaniola and had to be abandoned.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 14, 2020 9:50:48 GMT
Food for thought Steve, thanks.
Being a sailor your comments about "Of course that is likely to prompt a race for the Americas by anyone with a suitable port and maritime capacity once news spreads."
We are talking 1291 so the compass is in use in by europen sailors.
However, the ocean going ability of midevil round ship of that period worries me. I don't think it was seaworthy enough to hazard the N. Atlantic on a commercially viable basis. I also have real doubts they were large enough to carry enough supplies form the crews and have hold space for economically usable cargoes.
In 1291 the Cog was about the best European built ship in use. The cog is a type of ship that appeared in the medieval period in the 10th century and it was widely spread across the sea into the 12th century. It was mainly made from oak and the particular timber that could be found in the Baltic region of Prussia. Cog’s were used primarily for trade in medieval Europe, especially in the Baltic Sea by the Hanseatic League. A cog could be around 45 to 75 ft in length and it could carry around 200 tons.
It was a round ship that had a laid flat bottom but has overlapped strakes near the posts. They had a full clincker planking covering the ides and double-clenched iron nails for the planks. The keel was thicker then the strake, cogs could also used to have open hulls and they could have been rowed in short distances if needed.
The cog rig was square with very little ability to run close hauled and therefore at the mercy of contrary winds and N. Atlantic storms. IMO, a death trap for reaching America and totally unsuited as a transatlantic cargo vessel.
Midevil European ocean navigation was totally inadequate. You might be able to hit a continent but getting anywhere near a port repeatedly was totally out of the question.
Clumbus' 1492 ships were caravels, a much more seaworthy and larger than the midevil round ships of 1291.
The midevil ships which served well on the Mediterranean with its relatively near shores and modest distances between ports were not well-fitted to ocean exploration.
The design of the caravel was especially suited to distant exploration of the seas. Their "lanteen" (slanting or triangular sails) made the caravel very maneuverable and capable of sailing into the wind. A small vessel, the caravel housed about twenty crew members. Sleeping accommodations were generally topside with the possibility of going below in the event of inclement weather. The caravel had a length of approximately 70 beam and beam width of 25 feet. Weight was about 50 tons with two or three masts adorned with lanteen sails. Of course, the caravel could readily be square-rigged as well, i.e. square instead of triangular sails raised on the masts. The Nina and the Pinta were typical cargo ships acquired by the Crown from the city of Palos in consideration for a fine owed to the Queen.
Compared to the caravels, Nina and Pinta, the Santa Maria was a "tub" with it ponderous mass, shape, and keel depth. However, it had the advantage of expanded cargo carrying volume as well as stability in heavy storms. But, of course, it was anything but a coastal craft. Its deep draft required it stay safely from shoals adjacent shorelines.
Given that No one knows exactly what Columbus's mother-ship was like. The best we can do is to examine similar ships of the era. It is known the ship had a length of 75 feet with a beam (width) of 25 feet. Her draft (depth beneath the surface of the ocean) was 6 feet. There were five sails attached to the vessel's three masts. Most of the driving force of the craft was from the largest mainsail with the remaining sails used for "trimming." Though many mariners viewed the Santa Maria as an adequate vessel for her day, Columbus was not so kind with his assessment, "a dull sailer and unfit for discovery." Because of the deep draft (6 feet), the vessel was not suited for sailing near reefs and shallow island waters. In fact, the craft ran aground off Hispaniola and had to be abandoned.
Very true but it would depend what Conrad knew about later ship design and navigation techniques - which could be virtually nothing or a lot. Also the sheer fact that the continent exists, let alone its potential wealth - assuming he lets news about it out, would prompt some adventurers and probably some backing from rulers. Think the Danish/Norwegian colony was still in Greenland at the time and it might see a revival of interest, as a possible stepping stone by some of the Nordic nations. If course if he never mentions the existence of the Americans to anyone its probably going to be unimportant but simply developing reliable steam engines is going to change things rapidly as they spread and someone will think of using them even if more advanced sailing ships aren't developed more rapidly. [True early steam engines were very inefficient and he could lack the technology in ~1250 Poland to get a decent level of performance but it will come.] This also means that decent coalfields are going to gain in importance, especially since steam engines can supply pumping to allow deeper mining. Know there are large coalfields in Silesia - which I think is part of the kingdom of Bohemia at this point? - but not sure how good the coal is.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 14, 2020 17:45:52 GMT
Steve, Conrad's steam ships were anything but the very crudest river craft. If I remember correctly, they were really floating batteries with extremely low powered,very high fuel usage, engines that were at best just able to fight the river currents. An external source of feed water and frequent fuel stops greatly reduced their cruising ranges and limited them to short "Unaided" river transits. Basically, the tactic was to anchor them prepositioned at fords, use the engines to shift anchorages and use their guns to massacre the invaders at these choke points.
Even with the full resources of 19th century Western Civilization the steam ship was a very iffy proposition for transatlantic service due to the inefficiency and sustained unreliability of the steam engine. Well past the mid 19th century ocean going steam ships used their engines very sparingly, mainly to get in and out of harbor and then relied on full sail rig for the actual transit.
I just don't see the navigation being improved enough by Conrad to make long open ocean voyages viable.
No astrolabe/quadrant/sextant, no chronometer, no star charts to speak of, no Bowditch  no navigation charts for coastal piloting. So we are asking these sailors to routinely cross the N. Atlantic with a compass and a lead line?
Even the Vikings gave up on North America. The Iceland, Greenland, northern passage to America is one of the worst weather routes possible. River craft are one thing, ocean going ships are something entirely different in my mind.
You do have a very good point about using the early steam engines to dewater mines. I think that was the original use of them. A stationary steam engine to dewater mines is a far easier proposition than a steam powered ship IMO.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 15, 2020 13:42:21 GMT
Steve, Conrad's steam ships were anything but the very crudest river craft. If I remember correctly, they were really floating batteries with extremely low powered,very high fuel usage, engines that were at best just able to fight the river currents. An external source of feed water and frequent fuel stops greatly reduced their cruising ranges and limited them to short "Unaided" river transits. Basically, the tactic was to anchor them prepositioned at fords, use the engines to shift anchorages and use their guns to massacre the invaders at these choke points.
Even with the full resources of 19th century Western Civilization the steam ship was a very iffy proposition for transatlantic service due to the inefficiency and sustained unreliability of the steam engine. Well past the mid 19th century ocean going steam ships used their engines very sparingly, mainly to get in and out of harbor and then relied on full sail rig for the actual transit.
I just don't see the navigation being improved enough by Conrad to make long open ocean voyages viable.
No astrolabe/quadrant/sextant, no chronometer, no star charts to speak of, no Bowditch no navigation charts for coastal piloting. So we are asking these sailors to routinely cross the N. Atlantic with a compass and a lead line?
Even the Vikings gave up on North America. The Iceland, Greenland, northern passage to America is one of the worst weather routes possible. River craft are one thing, ocean going ships are something entirely different in my mind.
You do have a very good point about using the early steam engines to dewater mines. I think that was the original use of them. A stationary steam engine to dewater mines is a far easier proposition than a steam powered ship IMO.
Ah if their that relatively primitive then it is a long way off them being practical for oceanic travel then. I was thinking he, as an engineer would be able to produce something more powerful but it would depend on how much he could upgrade local technology and knowledge if the basic facilities were too limited. Things like quality of iron produced and tolerance of components.
Of course the simplest solution with the Americas is that Conrad simply keeps their existence a secret. However with the big boost to technology that is occurring its likely they would be discovered a bit earlier. If nothing else he will be introducing ideas of standardised products, better iron and probably other ideas. Although if events prevent the OTL Ottoman domination of all the land routes to the east and relevant trade there could well be less interest in traveling on the western ocean, which would counter that effect.
Yes draining mines was one of the big initial uses for steam engines and is likely to be so here, although their use in war is obviously going to attract attention. You could well see a canal construction period before railways take over and the relatively flat land of the N European plain could help here, although there's still a lot of marshy and forested lands and distances in some place would be large. Plus such projects can only really take off when there is a stable political situation over a large enough area. With assorted provincial nobility and different laws as well and the nobles based more around a military role rather than great landed estates probably won't help.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 15, 2020 15:17:21 GMT
Ah if their that relatively primitive then it is a long way off them being practical for oceanic travel then. I was thinking he, as an engineer would be able to produce something more powerful but it would depend on how much he could upgrade local technology and knowledge if the basic facilities were too limited. Things like quality of iron produced and tolerance of components. Of course the simplest solution with the Americas is that Conrad simply keeps their existence a secret. However with the big boost to technology that is occurring its likely they would be discovered a bit earlier. If nothing else he will be introducing ideas of standardised products, better iron and probably other ideas. Although if events prevent the OTL Ottoman domination of all the land routes to the east and relevant trade there could well be less interest in traveling on the western ocean, which would counter that effect. Yes draining mines was one of the big initial uses for steam engines and is likely to be so here, although their use in war is obviously going to attract attention. You could well see a canal construction period before railways take over and the relatively flat land of the N European plain could help here, although there's still a lot of marshy and forested lands and distances in some place would be large. Plus such projects can only really take off when there is a stable political situation over a large enough area. With assorted provincial nobility and different laws as well and the nobles based more around a military role rather than great landed estates probably won't help.
Steve you raise some very good points. I concur wholeheartedly, that "Quality of iron produced and tolerance of components" are two absolutely vital aspects of building viable transatlantic steam ships. Materially finer tolerance of components might be the most difficult improvement to be achieved by Conrad. It is one thing to produce a precise watch quite another to apply those tolerances to large masses of metal.
Quality of iron is another very tough nut to crack. Just look at the failure rate of cannons and large bells due to inability to produce quality iron castings well into the mid 19th century.
I'd think Conrad's utterly decisive and massively one sided annihilation of the Khan's army would benefit the Muslims hugely. If anything, I would imagine the Muslim hold on the trade routes to the east would be greatly strengthened.
I find hard to believe that if the Mongol army was annihilated by Conrad the Great Khan, Mongke, would put his brother Hulagu Khan in charge of an army in 1255 whose goals were to conquer Persia, Syria, and Egypt, as well as to destroy the Abbasid Caliphate. The campaign’s goal appears to be a complete destruction of Islam. Hulagu himself even had a very deep hatred for everything attached to Islam. Much of this came from his Buddhist and Christian advisors who influenced his policies. The Mongols left a deep political, economic, and military scar in the heart of the Muslim world. Entire regions were depopulated. Irrigation canals, fields of crops, and economic infrastructure were destroyed beyond repair. The political institutions, such as the caliphate, that held the Muslim world together for centuries were simply abolished.
The Mongol Il-Khanate established by Hulagu’s descendants would rule over Persia, Iraq, and Anatolia for over 100 years.
Furthermore, Mongols Supported Trade, Facilitating East-West Contacts.
Along with Western missionaries, traders from the West (particularly from Genoa) began to arrive in the Mongol domains, mostly in Persia and eventually farther east.
The Mongols were quite receptive to this. This attitude, which facilitated contacts with West Asia and Europe.
The Mongols always favored trade. Their nomadic way of life caused them to recognize the importance of trade from the very earliest times and, unlike the Chinese, they had a positive attitude toward merchants and commerce.
The Confucian Chinese professed to be disdainful of trade and merchants, whom they perceived to be a parasitical group that did not produce anything and were involved only in the exchange of goods. Mongols altered that attitude and in fact sought to facilitate international trade.
In China, for example, the Mongols increased the amount of paper money in circulation and guaranteed the value of that paper money in precious metals. They also built many roads — though this was only partly to promote trade — these roads were mainly used to facilitate the Mongols' rule over China.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 15, 2020 16:55:57 GMT
Ah if their that relatively primitive then it is a long way off them being practical for oceanic travel then. I was thinking he, as an engineer would be able to produce something more powerful but it would depend on how much he could upgrade local technology and knowledge if the basic facilities were too limited. Things like quality of iron produced and tolerance of components. Of course the simplest solution with the Americas is that Conrad simply keeps their existence a secret. However with the big boost to technology that is occurring its likely they would be discovered a bit earlier. If nothing else he will be introducing ideas of standardised products, better iron and probably other ideas. Although if events prevent the OTL Ottoman domination of all the land routes to the east and relevant trade there could well be less interest in traveling on the western ocean, which would counter that effect. Yes draining mines was one of the big initial uses for steam engines and is likely to be so here, although their use in war is obviously going to attract attention. You could well see a canal construction period before railways take over and the relatively flat land of the N European plain could help here, although there's still a lot of marshy and forested lands and distances in some place would be large. Plus such projects can only really take off when there is a stable political situation over a large enough area. With assorted provincial nobility and different laws as well and the nobles based more around a military role rather than great landed estates probably won't help.
Steve you raise some very good points. I concur wholeheartedly, that "Quality of iron produced and tolerance of components" are two absolutely vital aspects of building viable transatlantic steam ships. Materially finer tolerance of components might be the most difficult improvement to be achieved by Conrad. It is one thing to produce a precise watch quite another to apply those tolerances to large masses of metal.
Quality of iron is another very tough nut to crack. Just look at the failure rate of cannons and large bells due to inability to produce quality iron castings well into the mid 19th century.
I'd think Conrad's utterly decisive and massively one sided annihilation of the Khan's army would benefit the Muslims hugely. If anything, I would imagine the Muslim hold on the trade routes to the east would be greatly strengthened.
I find hard to believe that if the Mongol army was annihilated by Conrad the Great Khan, Mongke, would put his brother Hulagu Khan in charge of an army in 1255 whose goals were to conquer Persia, Syria, and Egypt, as well as to destroy the Abbasid Caliphate. The campaign’s goal appears to be a complete destruction of Islam. Hulagu himself even had a very deep hatred for everything attached to Islam. Much of this came from his Buddhist and Christian advisors who influenced his policies. The Mongols left a deep political, economic, and military scar in the heart of the Muslim world. Entire regions were depopulated. Irrigation canals, fields of crops, and economic infrastructure were destroyed beyond repair. The political institutions, such as the caliphate, that held the Muslim world together for centuries were simply abolished.
The Mongol Il-Khanate established by Hulagu’s descendants would rule over Persia, Iraq, and Anatolia for over 100 years.
Furthermore, Mongols Supported Trade, Facilitating East-West Contacts.
Along with Western missionaries, traders from the West (particularly from Genoa) began to arrive in the Mongol domains, mostly in Persia and eventually farther east.
The Mongols were quite receptive to this. This attitude, which facilitated contacts with West Asia and Europe.
The Mongols always favored trade. Their nomadic way of life caused them to recognize the importance of trade from the very earliest times and, unlike the Chinese, they had a positive attitude toward merchants and commerce.
The Confucian Chinese professed to be disdainful of trade and merchants, whom they perceived to be a parasitical group that did not produce anything and were involved only in the exchange of goods. Mongols altered that attitude and in fact sought to facilitate international trade.
In China, for example, the Mongols increased the amount of paper money in circulation and guaranteed the value of that paper money in precious metals. They also built many roads — though this was only partly to promote trade — these roads were mainly used to facilitate the Mongols' rule over China.
Difficult to say what happens with the Mongols. They will want to avenge the defeat but also the ME is a much richer area for conquest. The Mongols didn't return to eastern Europe after their invasion OTL although of course as the Golden Horde they dominated much of OTL Russia/Ukraine and associated areas for a couple of centuries. This could totally change now if they don't return. Even if they do and dominate the region as OTL if Batu's rise to power and pushing the Horde into Islam is averted then the history of the region will be affected. Quite possibly it may become Islamic at some point as the religion is probably more suitable for nomadic herders and warriors than Christianity but something else might emege.
If Hulagu is still sent to the ME he might well be more successful than OTL as its unlikely he would have an hostile Golden Horde on his northern border, distracting from operations against other states. Which could be a massive game changer in many ways, although not as big as the impact of Conrad and his knowledge. Basically there are many things that could end up way, way different compared to OTL.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 16, 2020 21:42:16 GMT
Steve this really impressed me. Hope you find it worth your time.
Mongols VS Knights by The Metatron
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2020 12:41:51 GMT
Steve this really impressed me. Hope you find it worth your time.Mongols VS Knights by The Metatron
Interesting. He has one or two mistakes, such as the main attack on the Islamic world hadn't occurred during the 1241 invasion. Also given how many Chinese, Persian and other major fortified locations the Mongols took it seems unlikely that they would have been stopped by European castles on their own. What I think would have stopped them would have been the sheer number of fortified locations coupled with the terrain. As he said early in the video the Mongol's needed multiple mounts to support their mobile style of warfare. Given that much of central Europe was still heavily forested and hilly, with limited grasslands the Mongol force, as it was then would have struggled to maintain large forces for any length of time due to the lack of fodder. They could move through such areas at speed, or far less hospitable terrain such as mountains and deserts, but not linger there for long. I have seen it suggested before that their style of warfare was only really viable for any prolonged period on the plains of greater Hungary, which was the westernmost extreme of the steppes that reach across to Manchuria.
From the comments on his wiki entry Batu_Khan definitely had plans to march further west, unless he was engaged in an immense bluff which seems unlikely. I suspect there would have been no long lasting conquests and direct rule, at least of the western regions, although this was feared by much of Europe unless the Mongols recruited a lot more infantry. Which as The Metatron says they did engineers and Khuabli definitely did for his conquest of southern China. If they had established a lasting presence in Hungary and eastern Poland and done this it could have been bad for much of Europe.
Interesting the huge difference in the nature of knights the period. The later knights of the 14th and 15thC would have been a serious problem for the Mongols of the 1250's if supported by steady and well equipped infantry although I have heard less success for the knights of the period than he suggested. Even the latter ones might have suffered however in terrain that favours the Mongols who could outrun their heavy cavalry and raid and attack their supply lines.
One other important factor is that while Batu was a very powerful leader he died in 1255 and his son Sartaq died in rather suspicious circumstances and was succeeded by his uncle Berke. He had converted to Islam and also felt at odds with Kublai Khan when the latter was elected Great Khan after the death of his predecessor Möngke Khan in 1259. This resulted in the Toluid Civil War which Kublai eventually won. Since Hulagu of the Ilkhanate was a loyal supporter of Kublai and also had been marching through the ME defeating many Muslim rulers and sacking Baghdad and other big cities this put them at odds and Berke - who I had confused with Batu in the past  - spent a lot of effort attack Hulagu and his subjects which not only took a lot of pressure off the Mamluks but probably also prevent Berke and the Golden Horde putting further pressure on eastern Europe beyond their existing subject territories in the Rus lands.
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 17, 2020 15:12:26 GMT
As he said early in the video the Mongol's needed multiple mounts to support their mobile style of warfare.
Steve the number he mentioned was 3 for every rider, which got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing)
Not sure how Germaine this is to our discussion but I think you will at least find it amusing.
When I was a young man I found myself working as a Jackaroo on a cattle station down in OZ. We worked 6 days a week and every other weekend.
Each of us, and the that includes the veteran "Ringers", rotated three horses. One Saturday Afternoon I was talking to the boss and I said. "Why is it the nags only work one day in three and I work every day?"
He said "Well Joe, it's because the horses are actually worth something!"
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Nov 18, 2020 1:21:51 GMT
I am looking for some kind of an "Edge" that would allow the poor quality of the 13th century European infantry to contribute more than corpses in a battle with the Mongols.
Let us consider the Bow.
I am drawing from the knowledge of Catherine Hanley in her book "War and Combat 1150-1270".
"The equipment in use in the early thirteenth century came in two basic types: the simple bow (which was probably under five feet long at this time, rather shorter than the classic longbow, taller than a man, which developed later), and the crossbow. Both were used in different ways for different purposes."
A wooden war bow of the early thirteenth century had a draw weight around 80-100lbs and a range of about 250-300 yards against massed targets and an accurate range of perhaps 100 yards against a single man & Horse.
Arrows were generally made of ash with iron or steel arrowheads could vary in shape from narrow, pointed bodkins (useful for piercing mail) to triangular broadheads, effective against both horses and men and extremely difficult to remove once embedded. A skilled archer could loose around 12 aimed arrows per minute.
"The advantages of the simple bow are that volleys of arrows could be loosed at speed, without the necessity of hand-to-hand fighting; it was light and suited to all types of terrain; and it was useful both defensively and offensively. The disadvantages were that in order to gain speed and accuracy an archer had to be highly trained, and that, as the bow worked on muscle power, the string could not be held back in the draw position for long. It was also imperative that bowstrings were kept dry."
In the early thirteenth century the crossbow was of a relatively simple loading design, having a stirrup for the foot and a string which was drawn back either by hand or by means of a hook attached to the bearer’s belt (i.e. you bent down, hooked the string, and then used the force of you standing back upright to pull back the string and fix it in place). More complex designs which produced greater power, such as the windlass or cranequin, developed later. Range of 300 yards against massed targets, with an accurate range of half that against a man and horse.
The crossbow's main advantages were its power and the fact that the string could be drawn back and the bolt put in place in advance, meaning that the operator could take his time to aim – useful if you were a sniper in a besieged castle looking to shoot any attacker who showed himself in the open. Using a crossbow also required less skill and training than shooting a bow, and a relative beginner could be as effective as an experienced crossbowman. The principal disadvantage was that it was slow to use, with even an expert loosing a maximum of two or three bolts in a minute.
Final nail in the European archer's coffin. "Whereas the English longbow could shoot at distances up to 250 yards or around 228 meters, the Mongol counterpart can hit its target at 350 yards or 320 meters and, if the archer is well trained for the task, even beyond that."
After reading this book I don't think the bow is the answer.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 18, 2020 12:55:05 GMT
I am looking for some kind of an "Edge" that would allow the poor quality of the 13th century European infantry to contribute more than corpses in a battle with the Mongols.
Let us consider the Bow.
I am drawing from the knowledge of Catherine Hanley in her book "War and Combat 1150-1270".
"The equipment in use in the early thirteenth century came in two basic types: the simple bow (which was probably under five feet long at this time, rather shorter than the classic longbow, taller than a man, which developed later), and the crossbow. Both were used in different ways for different purposes."
A wooden war bow of the early thirteenth century had a draw weight around 80-100lbs and a range of about 250-300 yards against massed targets and an accurate range of perhaps 100 yards against a single man & Horse.
Arrows were generally made of ash with iron or steel arrowheads could vary in shape from narrow, pointed bodkins (useful for piercing mail) to triangular broadheads, effective against both horses and men and extremely difficult to remove once embedded. A skilled archer could loose around 12 aimed arrows per minute.
"The advantages of the simple bow are that volleys of arrows could be loosed at speed, without the necessity of hand-to-hand fighting; it was light and suited to all types of terrain; and it was useful both defensively and offensively. The disadvantages were that in order to gain speed and accuracy an archer had to be highly trained, and that, as the bow worked on muscle power, the string could not be held back in the draw position for long. It was also imperative that bowstrings were kept dry."
In the early thirteenth century the crossbow was of a relatively simple loading design, having a stirrup for the foot and a string which was drawn back either by hand or by means of a hook attached to the bearer’s belt (i.e. you bent down, hooked the string, and then used the force of you standing back upright to pull back the string and fix it in place). More complex designs which produced greater power, such as the windlass or cranequin, developed later. Range of 300 yards against massed targets, with an accurate range of half that against a man and horse.
The crossbow's main advantages were its power and the fact that the string could be drawn back and the bolt put in place in advance, meaning that the operator could take his time to aim – useful if you were a sniper in a besieged castle looking to shoot any attacker who showed himself in the open. Using a crossbow also required less skill and training than shooting a bow, and a relative beginner could be as effective as an experienced crossbowman. The principal disadvantage was that it was slow to use, with even an expert loosing a maximum of two or three bolts in a minute.
Final nail in the European archer's coffin. "Whereas the English longbow could shoot at distances up to 250 yards or around 228 meters, the Mongol counterpart can hit its target at 350 yards or 320 meters and, if the archer is well trained for the task, even beyond that."
After reading this book I don't think the bow is the answer.
Interesting that last bit. I know the Mongols used the composite bow, which was small enough to be used on a horse but had a similar strength to a long bow. Never really been clear how that is powered however. Assuming like with a simple or longbow by the pull of the archers arms but that would suggest to me that it would have less 'weight' to it than a longbow as it must be more difficult to do this on a horse rather than standing on firm ground. As such, while using gut feeling and 'common sense' which admittedly is often wrong I would be interested to know the basis for her argument that Mongol horse archers have such a range advantage. [Know in most computer games - albeit probably not the most reliable source - horse archers have a distinctly shorter range than most foot archers]. Plus of course, while doing something like the roaming circle, stirring up a lot of dust helps obscure them horse archers are a much bigger target than infantry ones simply because their on horses.
Would agree that the crossbow would be a better option provided that it can be used on the defensive, either in a fortification or say a defensive stand with some armoured protection. What they must avoid is being drawn into a mobile war, at least against traditional Mongol forces. It simply takes too much time and needs a lot of strength to use a longbow. Possibly backing the crossbowmen with massed shortbows for sheer weight of fire IF you can force the Mongols to come to you. [Which could be difficult unless you can defend an important block-point, such as a pass or river crossing.] Have them positioned behind well protected infantry.
You do need missile fire else the Mongols can simply stand off and shoot you up and sooner or later, even if armour means losses are light some units are likely to break ranks and try and close with the enemy. Some sort of well armour [and importantly disciplined] infantry, probably armed with a long spear to defend against Mongol lancers. Well armoured men at arms and knights to respond to any close combat that results and stiffen any points that might look like breaking.
The key issue is forcing the Mongols to attack you rather than having to try and chase them down. Which would be more difficult in the more open areas and also with the standard Mongol use of intelligence to find out as much as they can about potential opponents. In closer terrain you may have more chance since also there's less opportunity for their horses to forage and hence they would have to retreat soon to avoid starving. Of course the problem with that would be that they can ravage a lot of land before that and if they do that were 2-3 years your surviving peasants, merchants, nobles etc are not going to be very happy.
Its a very difficult problem. The only people who really defeated the Mongols in this period were the Mamluks - who were aided by the Golden Horde taking a lot of pressure off them and the Japanese - who were fighting a more 'Chinese' infantry based force and aided by their island status and the divine wind.
Steve
PS Having a quick skim through the book as shown on Google. Ideas coming up as I read them. a) P27 - She says the failure to develop a horse-archer in western Europe was largely due to status and probably expensive. The mounted forced formed the social elite and opposed the idea of lesser ranks having horses, which also would have been expensive to maintain in western Europe. Probably especially so given that those forces would be using a weapon - the bow - which would greatly reduce their own importance and prestige. This could well be the primary cause, although I have also read that climate was a factor. Horse archers generally used the composite bow which was smaller for the same pull weight and hence easier for a mounted archer to operate. However this was a more complex design and included glues and resins which often provide unstable in the wetter lands of western Europe. Not saying she's wrong but that might also be a factor.
b) P29 - She questions the actual importance of heavy cavalry as the truly dominant military arm, albeit they were socially and politically by far the most important. Mentions that a decisive charge by heavy cavalry alone was rare and was often preceded by archer fire and then charges accompanied or followed by infantry. - Probably very accurate as heavy cavalry could do little on their own.
c) P35 - Found the section where she discusses assorted bows, with some dispute over the range of crossbows. Also I don't think the longbow was in widespread use at this period, only emerging in the 14thC so think the range details given for bows are only for short or simple bows.
I can't find any details on the Mongols or eastern horse archers but then only the 1st part of the book is viewable and selected pages only so can't see all the chapter headings for example. However an interesting read. Thanks
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Of course that is likely to prompt a race for the Americas by anyone with a suitable port and maritime capacity once news spreads. The tech gulf between the continents is somewhat less but there would still be the big issue of the disease imbalance that is likely to devastate the Americas. 
no navigation charts for coastal piloting. So we are asking these sailors to routinely cross the N. Atlantic with a compass and a lead line?
- spent a lot of effort attack Hulagu and his subjects which not only took a lot of pressure off the Mamluks but probably also prevent Berke and the Golden Horde putting further pressure on eastern Europe beyond their existing subject territories in the Rus lands.