archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 25, 2020 15:15:53 GMT
The Soviets in the 60's had two variants of the Soyuz (7K) for lunar missions. There was the 7K-L1 and the 7K-LOK.
The LOK was very much like Apollo, with a lunar lander and a huge rocket, the N-1.
But there was also a shortened Soyuz riding a smaller rocket, the Proton. No lander, no orbit. just a lunar flyby. That was also called Zond.
The Soviets had the habit to link big space stunt with anniversaries and propaganda. In the late 60's they had two big dates in mind.
November 6, 1967: October revolution + 50 years.
April 21, 1970: Lenin birth + 100 years.
Now look at the date... one week after Apollo 13.
And now, this link...
So what happened ?
Zond was to get cosmonauts NEAR the Moon in time for the 1967 date - and ahead of Apollo. Of course the plan went by the window and Zond, compared to Apollo 11, 12 was ridiculous.
Still, they considered sending a Zond around the Moon with a crew for Lenin 100th birthday.
OTL, they didn't do it because it was ridiculous compared to Apollo. But it come very close.
Now imagine the Soviets stick with their "Lenin plan"... this mean that, when Apollo 13 goes KABOOM, there is a Zond not only ready to launch, at Baikonur - but if it has launched, the two ships "free return" trajectories around the Moon are outrageously similar.
While Apollo was three men from the Start, Zond and Soyuz were trickier.
Before 1973, it was either "two men in spacesuits " or "three men without". The soviets picked option 2 and paid the price - Soyuz 11 crew, all 3 dead in 1971. In the end Soyuz was redesigned for "3 men in spacesuits".
So on paper at least, it might be possible to fit three guys in a Zond capsule without spacesuits. Risky, not sure the Zond support systems could also support three guys.
Still, it would make for a fun story. The Soviets going to the Americans and telling them "we have a Zond to rescue your crew..."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 25, 2020 15:33:25 GMT
The Soviets in the 60's had two variants of the Soyuz (7K) for lunar missions. There was the 7K-L1 and the 7K-LOK.
The LOK was very much like Apollo, with a lunar lander and a huge rocket, the N-1.
But there was also a shortened Soyuz riding a smaller rocket, the Proton. No lander, no orbit. just a lunar flyby. That was also called Zond.
The Soviets had the habit to link big space stunt with anniversaries and propaganda. In the late 60's they had two big dates in mind.
November 6, 1967: October revolution + 50 years.
April 21, 1970: Lenin birth + 100 years.
Now look at the date... one week after Apollo 13.
And now, this link...
So what happened ?
Zond was to get cosmonauts NEAR the Moon in time for the 1967 date - and ahead of Apollo. Of course the plan went by the window and Zond, compared to Apollo 11, 12 was ridiculous.
Still, they considered sending a Zond around the Moon with a crew for Lenin 100th birthday.
OTL, they didn't do it because it was ridiculous compared to Apollo. But it come very close.
Now imagine the Soviets stick with their "Lenin plan"... this mean that, when Apollo 13 goes KABOOM, there is a Zond not only ready to launch, at Baikonur - but if it has launched, the two ships "free return" trajectories around the Moon are outrageously similar.
While Apollo was three men from the Start, Zond and Soyuz were trickier.
Before 1973, it was either "two men in spacesuits " or "three men without". The soviets picked option 2 and paid the price - Soyuz 11 crew, all 3 dead in 1971. In the end Soyuz was redesigned for "3 men in spacesuits".
So on paper at least, it might be possible to fit three guys in a Zond capsule without spacesuits. Risky, not sure the Zond support systems could also support three guys.
Still, it would make for a fun story. The Soviets going to the Americans and telling them "we have a Zond to rescue your crew..."
Would the Soviet be able to make everthing ready in a short period of time. |
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 26, 2020 10:02:39 GMT
That's the main issue, obviously. You have a point. All Zonds OTL (1967-1970) were send without a crew. Instead onboard were big cameras and also small animals - tortoises, worms... heck, the Soviets were actually the first ever to shoot living beings around the moon in September 1968. In this scenario ITTL, the Zond (despite looking miserable after Apollo 11 and 12), is still ready to be launched, manned, the same week as Apollo 13. On a free return / lunar flyby trajectory that, coincidentally, is extremely similar to the very one soon to be taken by Apollo 13 after the explosion (see the link to Google books). Main issues - as you noted, sending the Zond in time to achieve anything More tricky however, are the following facts - Zond is build for two guys in suits, Apollo 13 has three men to rescue - none of the two vehicles are in a stable orbit, they are zooming past the Moon and rushing back toward Earth - none of the two can safely dock with the other Zond side: unlike Soyuz, the docking module is gone Apollo side: the crew is kept alive through the Lunar Module, which blocks the (mostly dead) Apollo Basically, the Zond would have to dock to the Lunar Module after the dead Apollo was thrown overboard.
Then the Zond would replace the Apollo for Earth reentry.
The docking rings back then were NOT compatible (well, Apollo - Soyuz exactly happened because of that matter, see below how a movie can influence things).
So admittedly, not realistic at all. The real fun / interest with that scenario are - the astonishing coincidence in date and trajectories, thanks to Lenin birthday (!!)
(unbelievable... NYT newspaper, 13 April 1970... dude, you have no idea HOW MUCH Apollo 13 will upstage lenin coming birthday !! LMAO)
- the Marooned connection en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_(1969_film) - the Apollo-Soyuz connection en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo%E2%80%93SoyuzBasically, that scenario is a mix of Marooned + ASTP, but in deep space. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 13:32:54 GMT
That's the main issue, obviously. You have a point. All Zonds OTL (1967-1970) were send without a crew. Instead onboard were big cameras and also small animals - tortoises, worms... heck, the Soviets were actually the first ever to shoot living beings around the moon in September 1968. In this scenario ITTL, the Zond (despite looking miserable after Apollo 11 and 12), is still ready to be launched, manned, the same week as Apollo 13. On a free return / lunar flyby trajectory that, coincidentally, is extremely similar to the very one soon to be taken by Apollo 13 after the explosion (see the link to Google books). Main issues - as you noted, sending the Zond in time to achieve anything More tricky however, are the following facts - Zond is build for two guys in suits, Apollo 13 has three men to rescue - none of the two vehicles are in a stable orbit, they are zooming past the Moon and rushing back toward Earth - none of the two can safely dock with the other Zond side: unlike Soyuz, the docking module is gone Apollo side: the crew is kept alive through the Lunar Module, which blocks the (mostly dead) Apollo Basically, the Zond would have to dock to the Lunar Module after the dead Apollo was thrown overboard.
Then the Zond would replace the Apollo for Earth reentry.
The docking rings back then were NOT compatible (well, Apollo - Soyuz exactly happened because of that matter, see below how a movie can influence things).
So admittedly, not realistic at all. The real fun / interest with that scenario are - the astonishing coincidence in date and trajectories, thanks to Lenin birthday (!!)
(unbelievable... NYT newspaper, 13 April 1970... dude, you have no idea HOW MUCH Apollo 13 will upstage lenin coming birthday !! LMAO)
- the Marooned connection en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_(1969_film) - the Apollo-Soyuz connection en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo%E2%80%93SoyuzBasically, that scenario is a mix of Marooned + ASTP, but in deep space. Is this the Zond you speak of archibald.  |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 26, 2020 14:27:34 GMT
How would they dock? In OTL, special docking collar has to be designed and built to let Apollo and Soyuz dock. They don't have time for that here. And I don't think Swaggert's suit was rated for an extended EVA (though I'm not sure about that).
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 14:50:50 GMT
How would they dock? In OTL, special docking collar has to be designed and built to let Apollo and Soyuz dock. They don't have time for that here. And I don't think Swaggert's suit was rated for an extended EVA (though I'm not sure about that). Also i think both the Soviets and Americans used different atmosphere in their capsules, that is also why the docking module was used as well. |
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 26, 2020 15:44:29 GMT
This Zond, yes. A Soyuz minus the "habitation" module on top. That cut 1/3rd of the weight from 7 tons to 5 tons (roughly) and allowed it too turn a loop around the Moon when launched by an existing Proton (rather than the gargantuan N-1, although the Proton was hardly better before 1972).
They wouldn't dock, transfering through EVA. But it would be very extreme, make no mistake. Nearly impossible to pull out. I won't pretend to be smarter than NASA !!! The way they saved the crew, there was no other alternative. Zero, nada. Zilch. I checked Apollo-soyuz NASA history and, by spring 1970 the talks were merely beginning.
While the trick is not viable in OTL context (Zond was dead) I use the coincidence in dates between Apollo 13 and... Lenin centennial in a different TL with an earlier POD.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 18:21:57 GMT
Still, it would make for a fun story. The Soviets going to the Americans and telling them "we have a Zond to rescue your crew..."
The Americans will say, great, can it fit all three of them. |
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
Posts: 359
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Post by archibald on Aug 26, 2020 18:43:41 GMT
The funny thing is... on paper at least, it could. Zond missions lasted 8 days, for a (theoretical, none was crewed) two men crews. Now, cut the time by 1/3 and you can add a 3 man onboard without killing the life support system. Say, 5 days for 3 guys. Well, Apollo 13 launched the 11, blew up on April 14 and returned on the 17. Only three days. So, if the Zond is "chasing" Apollo 13 on a very similar trajectory and manages to catch it some hours after the explosion, it has to support three guys but only for three days. This is completely speculative, of course. More for the fun of it.
I repeat, NASA OTL solution is the right, perfect one. Nothing better it: the crew returned alive.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 18:45:37 GMT
The funny thing is... on paper at least, it could. Zond missions lasted 8 days, for a (theoretical, none was crewed) two men crews. Now, cut the time by 1/3 and you can add a 3 man onboard without killing the life support system. Say, 5 days for 3 guys. Well, Apollo 13 launched the 11, blew up on April 14 and returned on the 17. Only three days. So, if the Zond is "chasing" Apollo 13 on a very similar trajectory and manages to catch it some hours after the explosion, it has to support three guys but only for three days. This is completely speculative, of course. More for the fun of it.
I repeat, NASA OTL solution is the right, perfect one. Nothing better it: the crew returned alive.
So how do the 3 Apollo astronauts fly it, will it be automatic, will they have to learn Russian. |
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 26, 2020 19:26:28 GMT
Automated. Mostly automated, like all Soyuz(es). Guided from Kaliningrad center.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2020 19:28:14 GMT
Automated. Mostly automated, like all Soyuz(es). Guided from Kaliningrad center. So the Applo astronauts have trust Soviet ground control. |
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archibald
Ensign
The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 26, 2020 19:30:26 GMT
It just dawned on me that a) early Soyuz crews were trained for EVA transfer, since the Soviet lander (the LK) worked this way. Problem was that the "lunar Soyuz" was not a Zond but a much larger and heavier LOK. And b) Apollo astronauts, too, trained for external transfers from LM to Apollo and back (validated on Apollo 9, around Earth) in case they could lot re-dock when returning from the Moon. So there was some experience with external transfers and near the Moon, on both sides... for the Americans, it was a contingency. For the Soviets: mandatory, as LK did not allowed for a tunnel. How about that... !
Soyuz story is a mess.
Basically
- Zond is a truncated, lunar Soyuz (2 modules)
- LOK is twice heavier, another lunar Soyuz (3 modules)
As for the Earth orbit variants...
- early Soyuz from 1 to 11 (1967-1971) have three crews without suits... and then a crew dies when atmosphere is lost.
- so Soyuz from 1973 to 1978 have two crews, with suits
- finally, Soyuz-T brings back three crews, this time with suits.
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