cj
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Post by cj on Oct 15, 2021 16:44:12 GMT
You know, if the duch or the Australian aircraft carrier is lost to a Soviet komet then the USN is going to try to rush the F6D Missileer as fleet defense. Expecting something to happen is different then seeing it happen in front of them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 15, 2021 16:52:21 GMT
You know, if the duch or the Australian aircraft carrier is lost to a Soviet komet then the USN is going to try to rush the F6D Missileer as fleet defense. Expecting something to happen is different then seeing it happen in front of them. Well the Karel doorman still needs to make the trip towards New Guinea and the war could be over by then, if HMAS Melbourne is attack by the Indonesians than the war is expanded, giving the Netherlands some breathing room. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 15, 2021 19:32:06 GMT
The same issues would militate against the Missileer in ATL as in OTL - too much in the one package and a one shot package at that.
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cj
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Post by cj on Nov 2, 2021 6:00:31 GMT
The same issues would militate against the Missileer in ATL as in OTL - too much in the one package and a one shot package at that. Um how exactly? Six big missles and a huge radar is exactly what the navy ended up doing with the f-14 (hell the f-14 is a hell of a lot more then the f6 consdering it is also fast and maneuverable) |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 2, 2021 6:35:08 GMT
It is trying to introduce 1.) The tactical concept 2.) The radar 3.) The Eagle missile 4.) New AEWC which was too much for the mid 1950s, particularly when we take into account that it is just a missile truck. The subsonic speed also constrains it’s flexibility. It isn’t just the aircraft, but the system it is part of. They really needed another 10 years of development to get into a useful position.
The “missile only” paradigm didn’t last for very long.
Adding a squadron of that to a CV deck gets a one shot anti-raid capacity in any engagement, whereas putting the missiles on an airframe that is capable of air combat makes more sense.
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cj
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Post by cj on Nov 3, 2021 15:54:35 GMT
It is trying to introduce 1.) The tactical concept 2.) The radar 3.) The Eagle missile 4.) New AEWC which was too much for the mid 1950s, particularly when we take into account that it is just a missile truck. The subsonic speed also constrains it’s flexibility. It isn’t just the aircraft, but the system it is part of. They really needed another 10 years of development to get into a useful position. The “missile only” paradigm didn’t last for very long. Adding a squadron of that to a CV deck gets a one shot anti-raid capacity in any engagement, whereas putting the missiles on an airframe that is capable of air combat makes more sense. I'm not sure what awac your talking about but the anti raid thing was 24/7 with 2 aircraft up. And the "missile only" paragrame only stoped because of issues with the sparrow and very restricted ROE in vetnam (we don't even know if vetnam is happening in this TL) besides if the duch or Australians lose a carrier to Soviet missile bombers then the USN is going to scramble to find a way to protect there carriers (sense they made a study they found that the f-4 for as good a plane as it was, is actually pretty bad at anti bomber raid defense, like the study suggested that f-4 would only destroy 2 bombers of a 24 bomber raid before the force got to strike distance) also the whole missile truck thing is what the us is doing now. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 8, 2021 3:36:57 GMT
February 13, 1959
Amahai Airfield, Amahai, Indonesia
Major Basarah sat in the ready room of his squadron's temporary home, numb from shock. The attack on Biak Island had been a Phyric Victory, at best. Of the twelve bombers that had launched this morning, only eight had returned to base. A third of their strike force had been shot down by the Dutch fighters. Of the escorting fighters, things were not quite as bad as he had feared. A total of fourteen F-5s had returned to their bases. But three of the planes would never fly again while a further six would require some level of repair before being declared operational again.
So many of the men he had trained with, that he considered a friend, were gone. Shot down over the deep blue ocean. They could not even recover the bodies for burial. It was then that the numbness began to fade, to be replaced by an all consuming rage. They had outnumbered the fucking Dutch three-to-one and had been flying markedly superior fighters, and still the fucking colonizers had torn through their formation like some winged devil. There and then, Basarah swore a holy vow. Never again would he let his men be second best in the air. If this was what a well trained air force could do in an obsolete machine, imagine what the Indonesian Air Force could do when properly trained. Never again would the Indonesian Air Force suffer this kind of loss rate. Not if he had anything to say about it.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 8, 2021 3:41:25 GMT
February 13, 1959
Philippine Sea
More new orders from Washington had just arrived. The situation in West New Guinea had gotten worse. A major air battle had been fought this morning for control of the airspace over West New Guinea. A battle that the Dutch had lost. The situation must be dire if the Navy was willing to change his orders again. They had already been diverted to show American interest in the region, but that was apparently not going to be enough. Now they were being ordered to wave their dicks in the face of the Indonesians in the Banda Sea as a "Freedom of Navigation" exercise, nevermind that the area was an active war zone. Why send Yorktown though and not Ticonderoga? She had a full attack Air Group embarked compared the the Anti-Submarine Group on his deck.
When he looked at the plot, he got his answer. Ticonderoga was still days away. She had been diverted back to the Western Pacific from her homeward bound voyage. He felt for the men on board. Tico had been only three days from home when Washington turned her around.
Sighing, Rear Admiral Colestock gave his orders to Yorktown's commanding officer, Captain Bedell. In short order, message lights were blinking transmitting his orders to the rest of the fleet. For the third time in her life, USS Yorktown was heading to a war zone. Captain Bedell gave his orders, the helmsman put her helm over and Yorktown began to head for the Banda Sea.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 8, 2021 3:43:48 GMT
February 14, 1959
Amahai Air Field, Amahai, Indonesia
Orders arrived from Jakarta just this morning. They were not orders that anyone wanted to see. The amphibious assault on Biak and then West Irian was being delayed due to the losses that Air Squadrons 11 and 12 had suffered the day before. While a recconasinse aircraft had managed to get a look at Mokmer Airfield, the photos were not of the best quality. It was believed that the Dutch still had at least part of a squadron of fighters left along with other assets and it appeared that, though the runway had been hit, the Dutch were already repairing it. It would take additional strikes by the Air Force to keep the airbase out of action and President Sukarno was unsure if the current Order of Battle was up to the task. Instead, the assault would be delayed until Air Squadron 3 could complete their conversion to the F-5 and be deployed to reinforce what was left of Air Squadrons 11 and 12.
Until then, Colonel Noerjadin had ordered that the surviving pilots and planes conduct continuous training for air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. Like Major Basarah, he too was determined to see that his men would never come up short again. For Colonel Noerjadin, this had now become personal. He had correctly predicted what tactics the Dutch would use, roughly where they would attack from, and he had positioned his aircraft accordingly. But still the Dutch had ripped them to shreds. The fact that the Dutch fighter force on West Irian was now largely a thing of the past did little to assuage his grief and anger of the losses they had suffered.
By rights, his F-5s should have swept the skies clean of every Dutch fighter with minimal losses. The next time they met the Dutch in the air, things would be different.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 8, 2021 3:46:07 GMT
February 14, 1959
Singapore
Steam had been raised in the boilers, the last of the hastily arranged provisions had been hoisted aboard and now the lines were being cast off. HMS Albion was heading to sea. She would sail first past the Riau Islands and then into the Philippine Sea where she would meet up with the USS Ticonderoga before conducting a joint exercise near the Solomons. In the Solomons, they would be joined by the USS Yorktown after she completed her port visit to Sydney.
The intent was to send a very clear message to Indonesia about their actions with regard to West New Guinea. Hopefully, that message would be received and understood. And if not? Well, the United States had another carrier near Japan and Admiral Sir Gerald Gladstone, CINC Far East Fleet, had just been informed that both Audacious and Victorious were being issued orders to deploy to Singapore much earlier than had been planned. If Indonesia was serious about prosecuting this war, they would soon find themselves heavily outgunned.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 8, 2021 3:46:43 GMT
By rights, his F-5s should have swept the skies clean of every Dutch fighter with minimal losses. The next time they met the Dutch in the air, things would be different. Maybe next time they meet Australians, British ore Americans. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Nov 8, 2021 4:00:24 GMT
February 15, 1959
Moscow, Russian SFR, USSR
The Politburo spent the day in meetings to determine what the Soviet Union's response to the outbreak of war in Indonesia. They had of course been briefed on the upcoming operations by their personnel in Jakarta. But for political reasons, they could not be seen to react before the operation began. Radio intercepts, human intelligence and their own surveillance assets had suggested, and later confirmed, that the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom were all deploying significant combat forces into the theater. New Zealand had also moved to a higher state of alert.
A strong naval and air presence was needed to restrain the Western powers. After a full day of discussion, it was decided that orders would be transmitted to Vladivostok ordering a fleet to sea. The fleet would be centered on the three Sverdlov class cruisers assigned to the Pacific fleet. Additionally, one of the Chapayev class cruisers would also be assigned to the fleet. Several Skory and Kotlin class destroyers would serve as the primary escorts.
The surface fleet would serve to keep the attention of the American's and British. And more importantly, they would bee too concerned with what the Red Fleet was doing to interfere in West New Guinea. Five submarines of the Project 613 and 633 types would also be deployed to operate in Indonesian waters. Though how to use the submarines was still being worked out. Several of the more militant members of the Politburo suggested that the submarines be "volunteered" into the Indonesian Navy and be allowed to sink Dutch shipping should it attempt to enter the waters around West New Guinea. Calmer heads prevailed however and the submarines would primarily operate as a secondary deterrent force.
The fleet, under the command of Admiral Vitaly Alekseyevich Fokin, would head to sea within seventy-two hours of the receipt of their orders. But more was needed.
In addition to the fleet heading to see, the 216th Fighter Aviation Regiment, part of the 1st Air Army, would be deployed to Jakarta as part of a "goodwill" tour. The MiG-19s of the Regiment would hopefully serve as an effective deterrent to the United States Nineteenth Air Force in the Philippines.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 8, 2021 4:03:42 GMT
The surface fleet would serve to keep the attention of the American's and British. And more importantly, they would bee too concerned with what the Red Fleet was doing to interfere in West New Guinea. Five submarines of the Project 613 and 633 types would also be deployed to operate in Indonesian waters. Though how to use the submarines was still being worked out. Several of the more militant members of the Politburo suggested that the submarines be "volunteered" into the Indonesian Navy and be allowed to sink Dutch shipping should it attempt to enter the waters around West New Guinea. Calmer heads prevailed however and the submarines would primarily operate as a secondary deterrent force. Seems cooler heads prevail where in OTL there where Soviet "volunteers" onboard Soviet Submarines serving with the Indonesian Navy and ready to sink Dutch ships if it came to war. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2021 9:17:01 GMT
By rights, his F-5s should have swept the skies clean of every Dutch fighter with minimal losses. The next time they met the Dutch in the air, things would be different. Maybe next time they meet Australians, British ore Americans.
Or even Dutch pilots with modern a/c.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2021 9:19:59 GMT
February 15, 1959
Moscow, Russian SFR, USSR
The Politburo spent the day in meetings to determine what the Soviet Union's response to the outbreak of war in Indonesia. They had of course been briefed on the upcoming operations by their personnel in Jakarta. But for political reasons, they could not be seen to react before the operation began. Radio intercepts, human intelligence and their own surveillance assets had suggested, and later confirmed, that the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom were all deploying significant combat forces into the theater. New Zealand had also moved to a higher state of alert. A strong naval and air presence was needed to restrain the Western powers. After a full day of discussion, it was decided that orders would be transmitted to Vladivostok ordering a fleet to sea. The fleet would be centered on the three Sverdlov class cruisers assigned to the Pacific fleet. Additionally, one of the Chapayev class cruisers would also be assigned to the fleet. Several Skory and Kotlin class destroyers would serve as the primary escorts. The surface fleet would serve to keep the attention of the American's and British. And more importantly, they would bee too concerned with what the Red Fleet was doing to interfere in West New Guinea. Five submarines of the Project 613 and 633 types would also be deployed to operate in Indonesian waters. Though how to use the submarines was still being worked out. Several of the more militant members of the Politburo suggested that the submarines be "volunteered" into the Indonesian Navy and be allowed to sink Dutch shipping should it attempt to enter the waters around West New Guinea. Calmer heads prevailed however and the submarines would primarily operate as a secondary deterrent force. The fleet, under the command of Admiral Vitaly Alekseyevich Fokin, would head to sea within seventy-two hours of the receipt of their orders. But more was needed. In addition to the fleet heading to see, the 216th Fighter Aviation Regiment, part of the 1st Air Army, would be deployed to Jakarta as part of a "goodwill" tour. The MiG-19s of the Regiment would hopefully serve as an effective deterrent to the United States Nineteenth Air Force in the Philippines.
That could back-fire since we're in the cold war. The Soviets are making pretty clear their backing Indonesian aggression so it might well push the US into a clear stance against their colonial aims.
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