ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 9, 2021 16:27:36 GMT
But Indonesia while having suffered losses in both fighters and bombers did mange to destroy the Netherlands fighters and with that can claim air dominance.
Well that's Cas Baas viewpoint but he might be wrong. Given the chaos of the combat others could have survived or at least their pilots. Plus it sounds like not only did a number of enemy go down but the fight probably means a lot of their fighters as well as they probably will run out of fuel before they get home. Ditto for any Indonesian a/c which are damaged as they have a long flight home and many could be forced to ditch.
The runway is damaged but unless there's some sophisticated mines and the like and it didn't sounds like it repairs should be possible.
Furthermore come to think of it the fog of war comes into play. The attackers will get info from their survivors but especially in a desperate dogfight estimations are often overstated. As such they won't know for sure whether and for how long the airfield is inoperable or how many defending fighters remain. Another attack, especially if it finds no opposition will confirm success, at least until more opposing fighter arrive - which might not necessary be Dutch. [Can't remember the exact situation in the campaign but if the US, UK or Australia were to supply support its possibly a/c from them could be operational there fairly quickly, assuming support facilities can be arranged.]
Anyway great to see this back.
PS, ssgtc,- one small problem. Checking back to remind myself what's going on I see towards the end of page 43, two posts on 5th April it mentions 8 bombers taking off, being followed by the fighters. There seems to be a continually problem here unless they bred in mid-air or some more joined them as you had 12 bombers in the recent posts. If its just 8 then only 5 made it to bomb the a/c with one going down over it and probably doing as much damage as the bombs and hence only half the force started back. *Grumble, grumble* consider it retconned until I edit it |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 12, 2021 8:42:45 GMT
So ssgtc, i assume that the these guys station at Biak did not hit anything.  |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 12, 2021 19:45:15 GMT
So ssgtc, i assume that the these guys station at Biak did not hit anything. No, they didn't. The Beagles made their bomb run at high altitude, out of the effective range of light AA |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Sept 12, 2021 22:50:28 GMT
Glad to see you picking this story back up, as it has always been one of my favourites.
Sadly as the RAAF found out the Meteor was outclassed by the Mig 15 over Korea and, the situation would only be worse against a Mig 17 variant. Although I would have loved to have seen how Dutch F - 84s would have fared against the Indonesians, but that may still occur if they are ferried from the USA to Dutch New Guinea.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 13, 2021 0:30:20 GMT
Glad to see you picking this story back up, as it has always been one of my favourites. Sadly as the RAAF found out the Meteor was outclassed by the Mig 15 over Korea and, the situation would only be worse against a Mig 17 variant. Although I would have loved to have seen how Dutch F - 84s would have fared against the Indonesians, but that may still occur if they are ferried from the USA to Dutch New Guinea. Yeah, they only did as well as they did because they had the advantage of a radar guided intercept and significantly more training and experience. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 14, 2021 18:27:07 GMT
As we are nearing 1960, will the Royal Neterlands Navy look something like this as OTL.   |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 14, 2021 19:30:51 GMT
As we are nearing 1960, will the Royal Neterlands Navy look something like this as OTL. Yes and no. Eversteen has been sunk and whether the Dutch decide to retain carrier aviation or not could also affect the fleet composition. |
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Sept 15, 2021 2:49:42 GMT
Are you able to foreshadow how likely it is that the Dutch will retain their carrier aviation capability ITTL? I can certainly see them maintaining a SCS and the Brits operating CATOBAR carriers.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 15, 2021 3:11:03 GMT
As we are nearing 1960, will the Royal Neterlands Navy look something like this as OTL. Yes and no. Eversteen has been sunk and whether the Dutch decide to retain carrier aviation or not could also affect the fleet composition. Well i do hope you allow the Netherlands to retain some carriers, even if it are one ore two smaller Invincible-class aircraft carriers equipped with the Harrier jump jet. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 15, 2021 4:42:35 GMT
Are you able to foreshadow how likely it is that the Dutch will retain their carrier aviation capability ITTL? I can certainly see them maintaining a SCS and the Brits operating CATOBAR carriers. In honestly still up in the air over whether the Dutch will retain carrier aviation in the TL. It honestly could go either way. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Sept 15, 2021 4:43:46 GMT
Yes and no. Eversteen has been sunk and whether the Dutch decide to retain carrier aviation or not could also affect the fleet composition. Well i do hope you allow the Netherlands to retain some carriers, even if it are one ore two smaller Invincible-class aircraft carriers equipped with the Harrier jump jet. Assuming the Harrier even gets developed ITTL. Or if it does, that it gets seen as a useful naval aviation asset. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 15, 2021 9:02:23 GMT
Well i do hope you allow the Netherlands to retain some carriers, even if it are one ore two smaller Invincible-class aircraft carriers equipped with the Harrier jump jet. Assuming the Harrier even gets developed ITTL. Or if it does, that it gets seen as a useful naval aviation asset. True with more carriers in service the need for something like the Harrier might be lesser. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 18, 2021 20:59:51 GMT
Fine work ssgtc; nice to see the value of experienced and well trained pilots in apparently obsolete aircraft. Don't ever underestimate such. Am surely looking forward to developments.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 19, 2021 12:41:41 GMT
Assuming the Harrier even gets developed ITTL. Or if it does, that it gets seen as a useful naval aviation asset. True with more carriers in service the need for something like the Harrier might be lesser.
Possibly although there might still be uses in land based combat. The ability to operate from small patches of open ground makes it a lot more flexible in some ways and also harder to hit although of course is countered by the range and performance limitations imposed by SVTOL operation.
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 19, 2021 13:03:37 GMT
True with more carriers in service the need for something like the Harrier might be lesser.
Possibly although there might still be uses in land based combat. The ability to operate from small patches of open ground makes it a lot more flexible in some ways and also harder to hit although of course is countered by the range and performance limitations imposed by SVTOL operation.
The Harrier role was changed by Helicopters military use; in a world where Helo's develop differently - no Vietnam War? - the Harrier may still be accepted by WestGermany and US from the outset perhaps ending up as the P1154 - supersonic as the Germans wanted. |
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