lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 2, 2020 9:16:29 GMT
Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleships (Project 23)
 Posted on Twitter on June 26th 2020 on the Alternate-Timelines official Twitter account showing a image taken 79 years ago by a Luftwaffe aerial reconnaissance plane photo of the Ordzhinikidze Yard (Shipyard 189), Leningrad, showing the battleship Sovetsky Soyuz (top) and cruiser Chkalov under construction, June 26th 1941. In the spring of 1937, the Soviet Union leadership found out that Germany and Japan had initiated the construction of new battleships. The ships, with an estimated displacement of at least 50,000 tons, seemed much stronger than the Type "A" battleship project. With that in mind, the Shipbuilding Bureau suggested that the design bureaus rework the project within three months, buffing it up to a displacement of 55,000 tons and a speed of 29.5 knots, with no reference whatsoever to any contractual limitations. In November 1937, Variant III of Technical Project 23 was worked out. By that time, tests of the ship's trial compartments for resistance to aerial bomb hits had finished, and the project was sent back for a follow-on revision. Variant IIIu of Technical Project 23 was finished by March 1938, and in May a decision was made to lay down the first warship on July 15, 1938. At the same time, further tweaks to the project continued to be made even after construction of the ship had already commenced. It was only on July 13, 1939, that all elements of Project 23 were finally approved. Under the original plans, eight Type "A" battleships were to be built under Project 23, four of which would be handed over to the Navy in 1941. But these plans turned out to be overly optimistic. Having assumed a more balanced approach towards their own assets and capabilities, the Committee for Defense authorized the construction of four ships. Two battleships were laid down in 1938: one in Leningrad at Shipyard No. 189 (Baltic Works), and the other in Nikolaev at the Andre Marti Shipyard (No.198). Between 1939-1940, two more battleships were laid down in Molotovsk Dockyard No. 402. However, the construction of one of them was canceled due to technical reasons. According to plans at the time, the battleships were to be launched in 1943 and commissioned in 1945. But with the outbreak of war, those plans met their doom. Battleship Sovetsky Soyuz was laid down on July 15, 1938 at Ordzhonikidze Shipyard No. 189. The outbreak of World War II, and later the Great Patriotic War, disrupted many foreign orders for elements of the propulsion unit and armor. With the Leningrad blockade, the construction of the lead ship was brought to a standstill at 21% overall completion. When the war was over, construction didn’t resume, and on May 29, 1948, the decision was made to dismantle the ship's hull. YouTube (Naval Legends: Sovetsky Soyuz | World of Warships)
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 2, 2020 10:09:21 GMT
Assuming no WWII then some of those might have been completed. Although the article mentions one of the 4 initially laid down had already been cancelled prior to the German attack.
They would have been large and powerful ships but given the lack of experience of constructing battleships of any size plus the problems in a totalitarian system - where its often healthier to hide problems than admit to them, let alone tell the great leader what he wants is impractical - I suspect they would have significant problems and shortcomings. Also they would be a substantial drain on the Soviet navy in terms of manpower, dockyard support etc and due to inexperience at all levels of the crew are likely to preform relatively poorly in combat. Plus of course the Soviets, especially if only restricted to their 1939-40 imperial gains still have huge problems simply because of geography. Such ships would have to get past the Danish straits and then a probably hostile Britain to get to the ocean from the Baltic and via the Turkish straits and then a British dominated Med from the Black Sea. As such they seem unlikely to be worthwhile units for the SU, other than possibly as prestige items.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 2, 2020 10:19:40 GMT
Assuming no WWII then some of those might have been completed. Although the article mentions one of the 4 initially laid down had already been cancelled prior to the German attack.
They would have been large and powerful ships but given the lack of experience of constructing battleships of any size plus the problems in a totalitarian system - where its often healthier to hide problems than admit to them, let alone tell the great leader what he wants is impractical - I suspect they would have significant problems and shortcomings. Also they would be a substantial drain on the Soviet navy in terms of manpower, dockyard support etc and due to inexperience at all levels of the crew are likely to preform relatively poorly in combat. Plus of course the Soviets, especially if only restricted to their 1939-40 imperial gains still have huge problems simply because of geography. Such ships would have to get past the Danish straits and then a probably hostile Britain to get to the ocean from the Baltic and via the Turkish straits and then a British dominated Med from the Black Sea. As such they seem unlikely to be worthwhile units for the SU, other than possibly as prestige items. Steve
Even if the Sovetsky Soyuz-class would have been completed and rivaling the Imperial Japanese Yamato class and America's planned Montana class in size, the failure of the Soviets to be able to build cemented armor plates thicker than 230 millimeters would have negated any advantages from the Sovetsky Soyuz class's, thicker armor in combat. Thus this class will looking impressive would not be good armored i guess. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 2, 2020 11:16:07 GMT
Assuming no WWII then some of those might have been completed. Although the article mentions one of the 4 initially laid down had already been cancelled prior to the German attack.
They would have been large and powerful ships but given the lack of experience of constructing battleships of any size plus the problems in a totalitarian system - where its often healthier to hide problems than admit to them, let alone tell the great leader what he wants is impractical - I suspect they would have significant problems and shortcomings. Also they would be a substantial drain on the Soviet navy in terms of manpower, dockyard support etc and due to inexperience at all levels of the crew are likely to preform relatively poorly in combat. Plus of course the Soviets, especially if only restricted to their 1939-40 imperial gains still have huge problems simply because of geography. Such ships would have to get past the Danish straits and then a probably hostile Britain to get to the ocean from the Baltic and via the Turkish straits and then a British dominated Med from the Black Sea. As such they seem unlikely to be worthwhile units for the SU, other than possibly as prestige items.
Steve
If completed ahead of June 1941, the Soviets might have tried to get them out to sea via the Danish Straits. A U-boat captain could certainly get lucky if the Luftwaffe nor German surface ships didn't beat them to the punch. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 2, 2020 11:32:39 GMT
Assuming no WWII then some of those might have been completed. Although the article mentions one of the 4 initially laid down had already been cancelled prior to the German attack.
They would have been large and powerful ships but given the lack of experience of constructing battleships of any size plus the problems in a totalitarian system - where its often healthier to hide problems than admit to them, let alone tell the great leader what he wants is impractical - I suspect they would have significant problems and shortcomings. Also they would be a substantial drain on the Soviet navy in terms of manpower, dockyard support etc and due to inexperience at all levels of the crew are likely to preform relatively poorly in combat. Plus of course the Soviets, especially if only restricted to their 1939-40 imperial gains still have huge problems simply because of geography. Such ships would have to get past the Danish straits and then a probably hostile Britain to get to the ocean from the Baltic and via the Turkish straits and then a British dominated Med from the Black Sea. As such they seem unlikely to be worthwhile units for the SU, other than possibly as prestige items.
Steve
If completed ahead of June 1941, the Soviets might have tried to get them out to sea via the Danish Straits. A U-boat captain could certainly get lucky if the Luftwaffe nor German surface ships didn't beat them to the punch.
Very true as once the war between Germany and Russia starts their basically trapped in an enclosed sea increasingly under German control. Suppose there is the chance that a Baltic Soyuz might clash with the Bismarck which could be an interesting battle but their more likely to be crippled/killed by aircraft, subs or mines. Or most like trapped in Leningrad and probably bombed there as the Soviets would use them as artillery units against the German forces.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 2, 2020 14:32:33 GMT
If completed ahead of June 1941, the Soviets might have tried to get them out to sea via the Danish Straits. A U-boat captain could certainly get lucky if the Luftwaffe nor German surface ships didn't beat them to the punch. Very true as once the war between Germany and Russia starts their basically trapped in an enclosed sea increasingly under German control. Suppose there is the chance that a Baltic Soyuz might clash with the Bismarck which could be an interesting battle but their more likely to be crippled/killed by aircraft, subs or mines. Or most like trapped in Leningrad and probably bombed there as the Soviets would use them as artillery units against the German forces.
I assume Bismarck would win on the assumption that the Germans have far more experience in building battleships and training. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2020 14:33:03 GMT
Very true as once the war between Germany and Russia starts their basically trapped in an enclosed sea increasingly under German control. Suppose there is the chance that a Baltic Soyuz might clash with the Bismarck which could be an interesting battle but their more likely to be crippled/killed by aircraft, subs or mines. Or most like trapped in Leningrad and probably bombed there as the Soviets would use them as artillery units against the German forces.
I assume Bismarck would win on the assumption that the Germans have far more experience in building battleships and training.
It always depends on who gets the 1st critical hit and the Soyuz is a bit bigger and has 9x16" compared to 8x15" guns but I would suspect your right on a German victory. Assuming a battle between just those two ships with nothing else being involved and neither ship having a significant positional advantage. Plus thinking about it the Germans would have radar and I doubt the Soviets would.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2020 14:34:17 GMT
I assume Bismarck would win on the assumption that the Germans have far more experience in building battleships and training. It always depends on who gets the 1st critical hit and the Soyuz is a bit bigger and has 9x16" compared to 8x15" guns but I would suspect your right on a German victory. Assuming a battle between just those two ships with nothing else being involved and neither ship having a significant positional advantage. Plus thinking about it the Germans would have radar and I doubt the Soviets would.
The Germans also would have air support i guess. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 5, 2020 16:03:40 GMT
They would have been large and powerful ships but given the lack of experience of constructing battleships of any size plus the problems in a totalitarian system - where its often healthier to hide problems than admit to them, let alone tell the great leader what he wants is impractical - I suspect they would have significant problems and shortcomings. Also they would be a substantial drain on the Soviet navy in terms of manpower, dockyard support etc and due to inexperience at all levels of the crew are likely to preform relatively poorly in combat. Plus of course the Soviets, especially if only restricted to their 1939-40 imperial gains still have huge problems simply because of geography. Such ships would have to get past the Danish straits and then a probably hostile Britain to get to the ocean from the Baltic and via the Turkish straits and then a British dominated Med from the Black Sea. As such they seem unlikely to be worthwhile units for the SU, other than possibly as prestige items.
Steve,
I'm of the opinion they would have been a very inefficient use of tonnage, exceeding even Bismarck. For their armament, they're approaching Montana/Yamato displacement with the firepower of Rodney or South Dakota.
My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 5, 2020 16:24:36 GMT
displacement with the firepower of Rodney or South Dakota. That sounds less than what you want with a battleship of here tonnage. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 11, 2020 11:51:26 GMT
They were a very inefficient use of tonnage, but they weren't the largest of Stalin's desired ships. Many years ago, I shelled out a pretty penny for Russian & Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin and the Pr.24s were just a bit oversized.
If they are built, then they run into the classic problem of Russia/the USSR in the modern era: geographical bottlenecks. The Baltic and the Black Sea, their two primary fleets, are locked up. The Northern and Pacific Fleets are widely separated from each other and from operational areas. They are already at a disadvantage due to that, certainly compared to the British, Americans or French.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2020 14:57:10 GMT
They were a very inefficient use of tonnage, but they weren't the largest of Stalin's desired ships. Many years ago, I shelled out a pretty penny for Russian & Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin and the Pr.24s were just a bit oversized. If they are built, then they run into the classic problem of Russia/the USSR in the modern era: geographical bottlenecks. The Baltic and the Black Sea, their two primary fleets, are locked up. The Northern and Pacific Fleets are widely separated from each other and from operational areas. They are already at a disadvantage due to that, certainly compared to the British, Americans or French. Well i have read about Project 24 (1950), think that is the last of the Soviet battleships designs if i am correct.  What started as a refinement of the Project 23 Sovetsky Soyuz battleship design became a new successor battleship designed called Project 24. In the years 1944-1945, Project 24 was designed with information of the Montana-class that were planned for construction in the USA. Later, when it became known about the cancellation of the order for the Montana as far back as 1943, the only opponent of the new battleship could be only be American Iowa-class which drove the subsequent development of the project was 24, though periodically in as opponents, the Montana would reappear. In 1948, work on the Project 24 (together with a group of specialists headed by the acting chief designer FE Bespolov) were transferred from CDB-17 to the newly formed TsKB-L (from the end of 1949 - TsKB-16), where, together with the Design Bureau of the Central Research Institute of the VK, the development of variants of the pre-project project, on the basis of which the requirements were compiled, and the development of various particular issues, continued. As of January 25, 1949, 483,000 rubles were spent on the development of the Project 24. The design was mostly finalized by 1950 with the XIII proposal chosen. With the death of Stalin, the continuing the design and construction of heavy artillery ships ceased to be relevant to the leadership of the fleet and industry, and when adjusting the plans for military shipbuilding in April 1953 all the work in this area, including the Project 24, was closed. Displacement:72,950 metric tons standard 81,150 metric tons full Length: 282 m Beam: 40.4 m Draft: 11.5 m Propulsion: 280,000 SHP, 4 shafts Speed: 30 knots Armament:3x3 406 mm L/50 main guns 8x2 130 mm L/58 dual-purpose secondaries Armor: Belt: 450-410 mm at 20 degrees Deck:60 mm weather deck 165 mm main armor deck 20 mm splinter deck Traverse bulkheads: 400 mm front and rear Barbettes: 500-415 mm Turrets:600 mm front 230 mm side 230 mm roof TDS: 6.2 m depth |
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 15, 2020 0:31:31 GMT
Yes, not a very efficient use of tonnage in terms of armament.
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