oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Aug 6, 2020 18:31:36 GMT
So instead of replacing a carrier the US replaces Atlantic Conveyor with Iwo Jima, would that efecht the war differently than OTL. I assume the British will send first the Iwo Jima to the United Kingdom to get new helicopters and maybe also a extra battalion of troops. Yes I think it does. The lack of helicopter lift certainly made the land campaign longer and bloodier. It was also one of the main reasons the Brit's decided to send Its Fleet Auxiliary ships to Bluff Cove. 56 British servicemen were killed, and 150 wounded in air attacks.
Speaking of Atlantic Conveyor and US help for the Brits in the Falklands. She was hurriedly convert being fitted with the US protoype ARAPAHO system, (the only one we had at the time) flight deck and hangar facilities.
The ARAPAHO program called for placing a helicopter and/or VSTOL force on commercial container ships during a national emergency or war. Using standardized, prefabricated container-size modules fitted together to provide living and operations-support facilities for the mission.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 6, 2020 18:37:04 GMT
So instead of replacing a carrier the US replaces Atlantic Conveyor with Iwo Jima, would that efecht the war differently than OTL. I assume the British will send first the Iwo Jima to the United Kingdom to get new helicopters and maybe also a extra battalion of troops. Yes I think it does. The lack of helicopter lift certainly made the land campaign longer and bloodier. It was also one of the main reasons the Brit's decided to send Its Fleet Auxiliary ships to Bluff Cove. 56 British servicemen were killed, and 150 wounded in air attacks.
Speaking of Atlantic Conveyor and US help for the Brits in the Falklands. She was hurriedly convert being fitted with the US protoype ARAPAHO system, (the only one we had at the time) flight deck and hangar facilities.
The ARAPAHO program called for placing a helicopter and/or VSTOL force on commercial container ships during a national emergency or war. Using standardized, prefabricated container-size modules fitted together to provide living and operations-support facilities for the mission.
Think she could have look like this: FALKLANDS REQUIREMENTS Ore if they had a bit more time like this.  |
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 6, 2020 18:55:20 GMT
So instead of replacing a carrier the US replaces Atlantic Conveyor with Iwo Jima, would that efecht the war differently than OTL. I assume the British will send first the Iwo Jima to the United Kingdom to get new helicopters and maybe also a extra battalion of troops. Yes I think it does. The lack of helicopter lift certainly made the land campaign longer and bloodier. It was also one of the main reasons the Brit's decided to send Its Fleet Auxiliary ships to Bluff Cove. 56 British servicemen were killed, and 150 wounded in air attacks.
Speaking of Atlantic Conveyor and US help for the Brits in the Falklands. She was hurriedly convert being fitted with the US protoype ARAPAHO system, (the only one we had at the time) flight deck and hangar facilities.
The ARAPAHO program called for placing a helicopter and/or VSTOL force on commercial container ships during a national emergency or war. Using standardized, prefabricated container-size modules fitted together to provide living and operations-support facilities for the mission.
This is something I haven't heard of before but wish I had. I could have used it in another war story! Interesting. Thank you. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Aug 6, 2020 23:59:45 GMT
Speaking of Atlantic Conveyor and US help for the Brits in the Falklands. She was hurriedly convert being fitted with the US protoype ARAPAHO system, (the only one we had at the time) flight deck and hangar facilities.
The ARAPAHO program called for placing a helicopter and/or VSTOL force on commercial container ships during a national emergency or war. Using standardized, prefabricated container-size modules fitted together to provide living and operations-support facilities for the mission.
Think she could have look like this: FALKLANDS REQUIREMENTS |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 7, 2020 23:39:11 GMT
This is something I haven't heard of before but wish I had. I could have used it in another war story! Interesting. Thank you. James, See HMS Reliant, A merchant conversion that extensively tested ARAPAHO for the RN. That page on RN helicopter ships is part of hazegray's carriers page
Regards, |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 7, 2020 23:40:30 GMT
From what I remember the ARAPAHO prototype was pretty austere. No ski ramp. Main deck outboard was lined with containers three high that provided berthing, maintenace shops, ammo storage, bare minimum C&C and protection (from weather and seas) for the embarked Helos and VSTOL. There was a landing pad forward and a high breakwater to shield it. There was also a landing pad aft. The drawings you provided are way too elaborate for the USN Prototype but the RN could have enhanced the concept.
Senior,
The Reliant I posted above corroborates your memory....
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2020 8:08:53 GMT
This is something I haven't heard of before but wish I had. I could have used it in another war story! Interesting. Thank you. James, See HMS Reliant, A merchant conversion that extensively tested ARAPAHO for the RN. That page on RN helicopter ships is part of hazegray's carriers page
Regards, Could a merchant like here have been modified quickly into a carrier for Harrier use ore would it be faster to loan Iwo jima from the United States. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 8, 2020 11:05:23 GMT
James, See HMS Reliant, A merchant conversion that extensively tested ARAPAHO for the RN. That page on RN helicopter ships is part of hazegray's carriers page
Regards, Could a merchant like here have been modified quickly into a carrier for Harrier use ore would it be faster to loan Iwo jima from the United States.
Are you talking about a continued Falkland's war or general NATO duty? I can't see either option being practical for the former although the RN did do some amazing things in getting facilities in service, such as the helicopter borne radar systems. So a merchant convert might be possible quickly, but the government would have to find Harriers and aircrew and the ship would still have to manage to reach the S Atlantic before winter so I'm doubtful. The Iwo Jima transfer would take longer and I'm doubtful that the US would approve it being used for the war. It is likely to be better for longer service in NATO, at least until another of the new carriers were completed and retained.
Steve
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archibald
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Post by archibald on Aug 8, 2020 12:02:59 GMT
There were lots of Iwo Jima (7, from memory) and they were scattered all over the world.
I would pick the Iwo Jima closest from Great Britain as of early May 1982. Let's say the POD is either Invincible or Hermes eat two Exocets on May 4, 1982 instead of Sheffield. From this moment, the "Iwo Jima class" race is on. Send it to Great Britain, replace the US sailors by British sailors, load it to the brim with helicopters. Load the US veterans and contractors into a 747. Once they are onboard, sail full speed toward the Falklands. Problem with the Iwo Jima, they were sloooow... 18 to 20 kt. Will take some time for the ship to get into place. Next "opportunity" for the Iwo Jima to shine is Atlantic Conveyor sinking, May 25. So, can an Iwo Jima race from Britain to Ascension to Falklands in three weeks ?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2020 12:20:56 GMT
There were lots of Iwo Jima (7, from memory) and they were scattered all over the world.
I would pick the Iwo Jima closest from Great Britain as of early May 1982. Let's say the POD is either Invincible or Hermes eat two Exocets on May 4, 1982 instead of Sheffield. From this moment, the "Iwo Jima class" race is on. Send it to Great Britain, replace the US sailors by British sailors, load it to the brim with helicopters. Load the US veterans and contractors into a 747. Once they are onboard, sail full speed toward the Falklands. Problem with the Iwo Jima, they were sloooow... 18 to 20 kt. Will take some time for the ship to get into place. Next "opportunity" for the Iwo Jima to shine is Atlantic Conveyor sinking, May 25. So, can an Iwo Jima race from Britain to Ascension to Falklands in three weeks ?
What about USS Lexington (CV-16), she was a training carrier at the time, could she not be used. just asking. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 8, 2020 18:04:55 GMT
Are you talking about a continued Falkland's war or general NATO duty? I can't see either option being practical for the former although the RN did do some amazing things in getting facilities in service, such as the helicopter borne radar systems. So a merchant convert might be possible quickly, but the government would have to find Harriers and aircrew and the ship would still have to manage to reach the S Atlantic before winter so I'm doubtful. The Iwo Jima transfer would take longer and I'm doubtful that the US would approve it being used for the war. It is likely to be better for longer service in NATO, at least until another of the new carriers were completed and retained.
Steve
I agree. I don't think the RN has that kind of time to get one in service before the end of the war.
Getting something for NATO service, as has been brought up, Argus or Reliant would fit the bill, but they're a bit more helicopter carriers with the option of operating Harriers VTOL.
My thoughts,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2020 18:09:15 GMT
Are you talking about a continued Falkland's war or general NATO duty? I can't see either option being practical for the former although the RN did do some amazing things in getting facilities in service, such as the helicopter borne radar systems. So a merchant convert might be possible quickly, but the government would have to find Harriers and aircrew and the ship would still have to manage to reach the S Atlantic before winter so I'm doubtful. The Iwo Jima transfer would take longer and I'm doubtful that the US would approve it being used for the war. It is likely to be better for longer service in NATO, at least until another of the new carriers were completed and retained. Steve
I agree. I don't think the RN has that kind of time to get one in service before the end of the war. Also depends on how long the war will last. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 8, 2020 18:10:38 GMT
There were lots of Iwo Jima (7, from memory) and they were scattered all over the world.
I would pick the Iwo Jima closest from Great Britain as of early May 1982. Let's say the POD is either Invincible or Hermes eat two Exocets on May 4, 1982 instead of Sheffield. From this moment, the "Iwo Jima class" race is on. Send it to Great Britain, replace the US sailors by British sailors, load it to the brim with helicopters. Load the US veterans and contractors into a 747. Once they are onboard, sail full speed toward the Falklands. Problem with the Iwo Jima, they were sloooow... 18 to 20 kt. Will take some time for the ship to get into place. Next "opportunity" for the Iwo Jima to shine is Atlantic Conveyor sinking, May 25. So, can an Iwo Jima race from Britain to Ascension to Falklands in three weeks ?
I would think Iwo Jima would be sent south with her American crew, some RN engineering personnel helicoptered aboard as she passes Gibraltar to familiarize themselves with the power plant. Then swap the crews at Ascension via chartered airliners, and have her continue south with a Royal Navy crew, and American 'advisors'.
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2020 18:13:01 GMT
I would think Iwo Jima would be sent south with her American crew, some RN engineering personnel helicoptered aboard as she passes Gibraltar to familiarize themselves with the power plant. Then swap the crews at Ascension via chartered airliners, and have her continue south with a Royal Navy crew, and American 'advisors'. Would the helicopters and Harriers also be borrowed and painted in RN colors. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 8, 2020 18:13:06 GMT
What about USS Lexington (CV-16), she was a training carrier at the time, could she not be used. just asking.
I would think Lexington would be available, but she's a manpower-intensive unit. I think RN would have trouble finding enough sailors.
That said, the Goshawks can carry Sidewinders and other ordnance, IIRC, so if she could be manned, she could operate as a CTOL carrier, and not just helicopter/Harriers carrier.
My thoughts,
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