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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 25, 2020 4:13:34 GMT
The Plantagenet dynasty was famous for its extremely long reign, from its rise to the English throne in 1154 until its dissolution in 1485, when Richard III died in Bosworth Field and the rise of Henry VII of the House of Tudor. Unfortunately, the House of Tudor had its problems with longevity, as its last reigning monarch was Elizabeth I, who never married and had subsequently been succeeded by James I (who also held the crown as King of Scotland as James VI).
So how can the House of Tudor become as powerful as its Plantagenet predecessor? Could the House of Tudor have gotten as lucky as their Plantagenet predecessor?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2020 15:35:08 GMT
The Plantagenet dynasty was famous for its extremely long reign, from its rise to the English throne in 1154 until its dissolution in 1485, when Richard III died in Bosworth Field and the rise of Henry VII of the House of Tudor. Unfortunately, the House of Tudor had its problems with longevity, as its last reigning monarch was Elizabeth I, who never married and had subsequently been succeeded by James I (who also held the crown as King of Scotland as James VI). So how can the House of Tudor become as powerful as its Plantagenet predecessor? Could the House of Tudor have gotten as lucky as their Plantagenet predecessor?
Possibly if Edward VI had been more sturdy and survive to live a long life, marrying and having children of his own? Or if say Elizabeth had been born a boy rather than a girl. There was an excellent TL on AH back when I was active there which had this happen and Anne Boleyn survives to have a number of other children with him, helps to moderate his more extreme activities and outlives him. Damn that distracted me to go back to AH, 1st time I've logged on in years and locating it. By Space Oddity called "Now Blooms the Tudor Rose". Been closed down for a while now but a massive TL with a hell of a lot of detail. Possibly might end up going back and reading it again some time.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 25, 2020 22:40:55 GMT
I would go with Edward VI as the best route. It avoids the Queen Mary / Elizabeth I route.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 26, 2020 2:25:01 GMT
I would go with Edward VI as the best route. It avoids the Queen Mary / Elizabeth I route. Edward VI would have been a good ruler, though his illness was the main obstacle. Also, Anne Boleyn also had given birth to three stillborn sons, so it would have been a major PoD for one or even two of them to survive. In a timeline that I did on AH.com a while back (it was a second rewrite of the TL that soon became the main project that I'm trying to rebuild and complete), one of the stillborn sons survived and I named him Richard, who became Richard IV. As a result, his older sister Elizabeth ends up betrothed to the future Ivan IV of Russia. I could see more internal development in Wales and other parts of England on the part of the Tudor kings, and even possibly giving up their claim on the title of King of France a lot sooner than they did IOTL (in fact, the same guy who presided over the loss of the Thirteen Colonies in the American Revolution also gave up the old English claim on the title of King of France). |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 26, 2020 12:44:21 GMT
I would go with Edward VI as the best route. It avoids the Queen Mary / Elizabeth I route. Edward VI would have been a good ruler, though his illness was the main obstacle. Also, Anne Boleyn also had given birth to three stillborn sons, so it would have been a major PoD for one or even two of them to survive. In a timeline that I did on AH.com a while back (it was a second rewrite of the TL that soon became the main project that I'm trying to rebuild and complete), one of the stillborn sons survived and I named him Richard, who became Richard IV. As a result, his older sister Elizabeth ends up betrothed to the future Ivan IV of Russia. I could see more internal development in Wales and other parts of England on the part of the Tudor kings, and even possibly giving up their claim on the title of King of France a lot sooner than they did IOTL (in fact, the same guy who presided over the loss of the Thirteen Colonies in the American Revolution also gave up the old English claim on the title of King of France).
I think after Henry VIII that claim was in name only but give him a male heir who survives and it could be pursued longer, at least unless and until England needs an alliance with France. Or since under either Edward or a son of Anne England is probably going to become clearly Protestant sooner, rather than have the wobble under Mary what you might see if the English monarchy dropping the claim to rule all France but giving more and more open support for the French Protestants [Huguenots ] who I think were mainly in the old region of Aquitaine so reviving the English claim to that area. Although that could be difficult if Spain rises to super-power status as OTL as its hard line Catholic and would oppose a Protestant state so close to it.
Of course without two female monarchs and then a foreign [i.e. Scottish] dynasty the monarchy might stay pretty absolute longer and take an even bloodier civil war at some stage to restrict its powers, or this could fail to occur totally. 
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 4, 2020 4:39:36 GMT
What about a healthier Arthur Tudor, oldest son of Henry VII? I don't know how he ended up sick, but had he survived, would we see a stronger alliance between England and Spain? Considering that he's married to Katherine of Aragon, Prince Henry (OTL Henry VIII) would either marry another foreign noblewoman, or he could either marry a local English noblewoman (Mary or Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth Blount, or some other random woman)
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 4, 2020 12:29:18 GMT
What about a healthier Arthur Tudor, oldest son of Henry VII? I don't know how he ended up sick, but had he survived, would we see a stronger alliance between England and Spain? Considering that he's married to Katherine of Aragon, Prince Henry (OTL Henry VIII) would either marry another foreign noblewoman, or he could either marry a local English noblewoman (Mary or Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth Blount, or some other random woman)
That could be another option, although again Catherine failed to produce a son with Henry so might the same occur with Arthur?
On wiki it says
Possibly hence he might just catch whatever it was that killed him. Also as the assigned heir from birth he might not have been as insecure as Henry seemed to be at times and hence less erratic. For instance, while he was waging war in France - without great military success - Catherine organised the army that inflicted a crippling defeat on the invading Scots at Flodden Field and when she compared it with his own 'successes' he's supposed by some sources to have reacted rather sourly.
Mind you if both 'King Arthur' and Prince Henry are alive he might be taking charge at Flodden so could be butterflies there.
If nothing else Arthur living and Henry no doubt marrying someone else there are two males in that generation who could produce heirs so even if Arthur and Catherine failed to produce a male heir Henry might do so, although that would lead to tension and possibly even civil war.
An Arthur/Catherine union that produces at least one son is likely to mean that England stays in the Catholic camp, at least for quite a while. Henry is unlikely to marry Anne Bolyn or any other prominent Protestant but find a 'good' Catholic bride, either a foreign wife for political advantage or a safe English bride.
Anyway initial thoughts on that possibility.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 4, 2020 23:25:05 GMT
I suspect that Arthur Tudor might have a compromised immune system if he was able to catch something that any regular civilian would have been able to heal himself or herself from.
With butterflies from a surviving Arthur Tudor, we might see a different route that butterflies the War of the Holy League, depending on whether or not France has staged an invasion of northern Italy, triggering the Italian Wars in the first place.
I could also see Henry being given another fief to rule by Arthur (Ireland would be most likely) if he remained alive, though Henry as King of Ireland might or might not be popular with the Irish lords. Most likely, Henry's alternate bride might be an Irish noblewoman whose family would be keen to gain his favor.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2020 12:55:32 GMT
I suspect that Arthur Tudor might have a compromised immune system if he was able to catch something that any regular civilian would have been able to heal himself or herself from. With butterflies from a surviving Arthur Tudor, we might see a different route that butterflies the War of the Holy League, depending on whether or not France has staged an invasion of northern Italy, triggering the Italian Wars in the first place. I could also see Henry being given another fief to rule by Arthur (Ireland would be most likely) if he remained alive, though Henry as King of Ireland might or might not be popular with the Irish lords. Most likely, Henry's alternate bride might be an Irish noblewoman whose family would be keen to gain his favor.
That last is an interesting idea, although could make things even bloodier is, as likely Henry stays Catholic in this scenario but a Protestant England still develops.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 5, 2020 17:42:14 GMT
There's plenty of time between OTL Arthur Tudor's death and the Protestant Reformation, much of which would have been butterflied. That being said, an alternate Protestant Reformation might happen on a similar scenario.
Also, I would love to see how Arthur Tudor would handle a possible attempt at a Yorkist restoration.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 6, 2020 9:21:58 GMT
There's plenty of time between OTL Arthur Tudor's death and the Protestant Reformation, much of which would have been butterflied. That being said, an alternate Protestant Reformation might happen on a similar scenario. Also, I would love to see how Arthur Tudor would handle a possible attempt at a Yorkist restoration.
Not sure about this as I think there was growing pressure for some sort of reform of the church by this date so even if Luther's actions were butterflied I suspect there would be other people and groups clashing with the Papacy.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 7, 2020 1:54:45 GMT
There's plenty of time between OTL Arthur Tudor's death and the Protestant Reformation, much of which would have been butterflied. That being said, an alternate Protestant Reformation might happen on a similar scenario. Also, I would love to see how Arthur Tudor would handle a possible attempt at a Yorkist restoration.
Not sure about this as I think there was growing pressure for some sort of reform of the church by this date so even if Luther's actions were butterflied I suspect there would be other people and groups clashing with the Papacy.
Steve
Almost forgot about that. The sales of indulgences was becoming a hot topic among the reformers, so that might become a major issue for Arthur Tudor to handle. I also had another idea about the fate of the male pretenders of the House of York: suppose they took up service in another country, while at the same time building up their power base for the eventuality of retaking the English throne back from the House of Tudor, but that would kill the idea of the House of Tudor supplanting the Plantagenets. It might also help if Arthur's younger brothers who died too early survive well into adulthood. |
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