genyodectes
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I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Feb 24, 2020 17:17:20 GMT
In 1783, there was an attempt by the military to remove Congress and replace it with a military dictatorship hopefully headed by Washington. In OTL, this attempt failed, but what if ITTL this succeeded. Obviously, no one would dare oppose Washington considering many saw him as a hero of the revolution, but after he dies, what comes next? Would Adams, Hamilton, and Burr practically rip the nation apart via election oligarchy until Andrew Jackson ends Democracy altogether, does Thomas Jefferson successfully end the dictatorship without problems, or does something else happen?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 17:22:51 GMT
In 1783, there was an attempt by the military to remove Congress and replace it with a military dictatorship hopefully headed by Washington. In OTL, this attempt failed, but what if ITTL this succeeded. Obviously, no one would dare oppose Washington considering many saw him as a hero of the revolution, but after he dies, what comes next? Would Adams, Hamilton, and Burr practically rip the nation apart via election oligarchy until Andrew Jackson ends Democracy altogether, does Thomas Jefferson successfully end the dictatorship without problems, or does something else happen? A civil War maybe. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 24, 2020 17:24:30 GMT
In 1783, there was an attempt by the military to remove Congress and replace it with a military dictatorship hopefully headed by Washington. In OTL, this attempt failed, but what if ITTL this succeeded. Obviously, no one would dare oppose Washington considering many saw him as a hero of the revolution, but after he dies, what comes next? Would Adams, Hamilton, and Burr practically rip the nation apart via election oligarchy until Andrew Jackson ends Democracy altogether, does Thomas Jefferson successfully end the dictatorship without problems, or does something else happen? From my (limited) understanding of the politics of the time, I find this not likely but not impossible. There was no history of democracies such as the US surviving like that. Just look at France in the same time period. The democracy which lasted could have just been an historical anomaly. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 17:31:45 GMT
In 1783, there was an attempt by the military to remove Congress and replace it with a military dictatorship hopefully headed by Washington. In OTL, this attempt failed, but what if ITTL this succeeded. Obviously, no one would dare oppose Washington considering many saw him as a hero of the revolution, but after he dies, what comes next? Would Adams, Hamilton, and Burr practically rip the nation apart via election oligarchy until Andrew Jackson ends Democracy altogether, does Thomas Jefferson successfully end the dictatorship without problems, or does something else happen? From my (limited) understanding of the politics of the time, I find this not likely but not impossible. There was no history of democracies such as the US surviving like that. Just look at France in the same time period. The democracy which lasted could have just been an historical anomaly. Well what about the early Roman Republic ore the Dutch Republic. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 25, 2020 12:39:24 GMT
From my (limited) understanding of the politics of the time, I find this not likely but not impossible. There was no history of democracies such as the US surviving like that. Just look at France in the same time period. The democracy which lasted could have just been an historical anomaly. Well what about the early Roman Republic ore the Dutch Republic.
Good point. After the Roman republic overthrew the monarchy it lasted for several centuries before becoming an imperial state again. With the Dutch republic I don't think it every totally replaced the monarchy other than the puppet state in the French revolutionary period but it had significant successes for a while and seems to have swung backwards and forwards between a limited constitutional monarchy and a fairly autocratic one before the latter option came out on top.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on May 24, 2020 15:54:56 GMT
From my (limited) understanding of the politics of the time, I find this not likely but not impossible. There was no history of democracies such as the US surviving like that. Just look at France in the same time period. The democracy which lasted could have just been an historical anomaly. Well what about the early Roman Republic ore the Dutch Republic.
I have to agree with James G. A longstanding Democratic Republic was a real long shot.
There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it."
Actually, I am surprised we have lasted this long. No doubt in my single malt marinated 20th century Neanderthal mind some sort of divine intervention is at work.
FWIW, the last time I was an E-1 Seaman Recruit was January 1967.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 24, 2020 16:03:39 GMT
Well what about the early Roman Republic ore the Dutch Republic. There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it."
The Dutch had a Stadholder but i doubt it would work for the United States, king Washington ore whoever they picked to be a king of a United Kingdom of America is something i do not see working. |
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James G
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Post by James G on May 24, 2020 18:35:39 GMT
There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it."
The Dutch had a Stadholder but i doubt it would work for the United States, king Washington ore whoever they picked to be a king of a United Kingdom of America is something i do not see working. Without looking it up, just remembering, the Netherlands had a monarchy (an elected/chosen one), then was a republic and is now a kingdom again. Was the republican period only under French rule or am I getting that wrong? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 24, 2020 18:44:44 GMT
The Dutch had a Stadholder but i doubt it would work for the United States, king Washington ore whoever they picked to be a king of a United Kingdom of America is something i do not see working. Without looking it up, just remembering, the Netherlands had a monarchy (an elected/chosen one), then was a republic and is now a kingdom again. Was the republican period only under French rule or am I getting that wrong? Here is the Wikipedia article related to Stadtholder, interesting enough stadtholderate was taken as a political model by the Founding Fathers of the United States with regard to the executive powers – Oliver Ellsworth for example arguing that without its influence in the United Provinces, “their machine of government would no more move than a ship without wind. |
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Post by eurowatch on May 24, 2020 20:06:20 GMT
I should bring up that Washington was not really all that interested in ruling. He voluntarily walked away from his seat as president, which allegedy caused King George III to ask "he can do that?"
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 25, 2020 9:49:35 GMT
I should bring up that Washington was not really all that interested in ruling. He voluntarily walked away from his seat as president, which allegedy caused King George III to ask "he can do that?"
I would agree that its unlikely that Washington would support such a coup attempt. Possibly you would need either his death before then or some other figure emerges as the primary hero of the revolution who might be more willing.
If something like that was attempted, even if it didn't succeed the important fact might be the sheer size of the infant US. As such its likely you would see a reaction against a strong military and probably even a strong central government greater than OTL and soon or later at least some states breaking away. This might need some fighting if a coup succeeded in holding power in the central states or part of.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on May 25, 2020 20:33:46 GMT
I should bring up that Washington was not really all that interested in ruling. He voluntarily walked away from his seat as president, which allegedy caused King George III to ask "he can do that? "Right you are eurowatch. GW told his former Continental Army comrade Henry Knox, that his “movements to the chair of government will be accompanied with feelings not unlike those of a culprit who is going to the place of his execution.” His “peaceful abode” at Mount Vernon, his fears that he lacked the requisite skills for the presidency, the “ocean of difficulties” facing the country—all gave him pause. In a letter to his friend Edward Rutledge, he made it seem as if the presidency was little short of a death sentence and that, in accepting it, he had given up “all expectations of private happiness in this world.” After two terms in office, he was 65 years old and had been serving the US almost continuously for over two decades. He was also cognizant of the fact that the country needed to set a precedent for an orderly transfer of power; much of the model for our Republic was the old Roman one, and Washington understood that the Roman Republic’s failure occurred when ambitious men refused to respect the need for a peaceful and orderly transfer of power. By voluntarily stepping down and passing the reins of government to John Adams, he set one more example that was followed. |
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James G
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Post by James G on May 27, 2020 17:14:08 GMT
An example I was thinking of what that of Cromwell.
He led the civil war fighting in England, oversaw the execution of the King and declared himself Lord Protector.
He was a king though, complete with his son succeeding him. George Washington (even without a succession) would have been compared to him at the time and by history had he sat on a throne as a king without the title after getting rid of one (without the head chopping).
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 27, 2020 21:25:47 GMT
I suppose another factor that might affect this could be if the new US felt threatened, which meant maintaining larger military forces and spending and the need for a powerful defensive installation. James has a good example with Cromwell perhaps.
Possibly either Britain does somewhat better and keeps say Florida/Georgia and S Canada - i.e. between the Ohio and the Mississippi and relations with Loyalists are worse. Or possibly the British position collapses completely and France regains Canada, especially if it keeps the southern region as well. Coupled with Spain regaining Florida as OTL and the close links between the two Bourbon monarchies that could leave the new US feeling distinctly encircled and threatened. Especially if butterflies means that the French revolution starts but is quickly and successfully repressed.
In that case there might be pressure for a markedly stronger military and its commander, who may not be Washington even before his death, decides he needs to step in to prevent either an external threat or serious internal disorder.
Steve
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on May 28, 2020 8:11:25 GMT
I agree with Steve, such a situation would probably require a reason for a strong army beyond what was seen OTL. Otherwise, I could easily see the whole thing just falling apart to infighting as many expected to happen at the time.
But, if Washington were to form a dictatorship around himself, and he would die (without sons as OTL), it could be possible that someone had already been groomed to succeed him. If that hadn't happened, the country might have fallen apart, either into separate states or conglomerations of them formed around powerful central states. From there, you could have them reunite at some point or stay separate. Another option, depending on how long Washington lasts, might be that there are several powerful people who would fight it out among themselves. With a strong external threat that might have been kept within closed doors, but generally, it comes down to who has most of the army to back him.
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