genyodectes
Warrant Officer
I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Likes: 119
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Post by genyodectes on Jan 27, 2020 22:35:35 GMT
Alright, so I have a small outline for an Alternate US CW TL that I'll try to write ASAP if some help is possible.
Here are some of the things that are different from the get go.
1861) John C. Breckenridge is elected President of the CSA and has Howell Cobb as his Vice President; Jefferson Davis becomes a Corps Commander in the AoT; Fort Sumter/Bull Run still happens; Patrick Cleburne is placed under Davis' command; Fort Henry is never used; Fort Donnelson is supplied efficiently and giving enough men to last a lengthy siege; ASJ takes all remaining supplies out of Richmond and prepares to force a Union force to battle him in Mississippi; The Army of the Ohio floats down the Ohio and captures Memphis. Fort Sumter actually began with Northern Cannons, not Southern Cannons, opening fire, thus technically meaning the war was born from Northern Aggression. Most of WV decides to stay with VA, though the northernmost part leaves (and is incorporated into PA), KY and MO attempt to leave only for Linoln to sent in the troops. Same can be said for MA and DE. Montgomery remains CSA Capital.
1862) Really big changes here. ASJ defeats Buell in MS and destroys the AotO, events in VA happens p much similar to OTL, with Lincoln wanting to take Richmond in order to recapture VA; Lee invades MD as in OTL, though at Antietam, Lincoln dies, just like how George B. McClellan dies at Malvern Hill while Fitz John Porter is fired. Hannibal Hamlin turns out to be a horrible President for the War and an ineffective military leader. The CSA liberates MO and KY from USA occupation after the AotO's defeat and Grant's defeat. An attempt to land at Mobile Bay is repulsed by the Confederate Army of Southern Alabama, commanded by Jeff Davis (Polk gets his potistion).
1863) The CSA focuses on defending the territory they have, though there are occasional pushes to the North, with the biggest being something akins to Gettysburg. The battle proves to be a disaster and Lee decides to resign from his position as General. All other commanders of the AoNV refuse to become a general of the Army due to them beliving they aren't ready for a fulkl army of Command. Breckenridge decides to promote the exceptional SiC to AoSA General Jefferson Davis, Patrick Cleburne, to command the AoNV. He accepts and proves an exceptional commander as he forces the Union into many astounding defeats.
1864) The Union, desperate for victory, decides to launch a six sided martial push. The Armies of Iowa, Kansas, and West Illinois will strike Missouri, the Armies of Indiana and South Illinois strike Kentucky, the new Army of Ohio plus a reformed AotP, and a newly made Army of Maryland assaults Virginia, The Union Army of Alabama (Made up of Southerners who defected to the Union) launches an invasion of Alabama while the Army of Louisiana (same make-up of the AoA) is alucnhed to take Vicksburg. Finally, there is an attempt to take the city of Charleston. All major pushes fail, though the Push in KY and MO sees some success. DC, MD, and DE is left unguarded and all three quickly fall to the AoNV as the US Government flees to Philly. Hamlin loses 1864 in a landslide to Peace Democrats.
1865) Peace is finally negotiated with the CSA holding all the states they currently hold, as well as annexing DC into Virginia. Also, the Indian and Arizona Territories are to hold votes to decide their fates later in the year. The treaty is signed in Madrid, Spain and ends the War of Southern Independence, as it's called in this TL.
Now, would anyone be interested in assisting me in this TL as I might need some help in it? You would be credited for the help, of course.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Jan 28, 2020 11:32:18 GMT
Alright, so I have a small outline for an Alternate US CW TL that I'll try to write ASAP if some help is possible. Here are some of the things that are different from the get go. 1861) John C. Breckenridge is elected President of the CSA and has Howell Cobb as his Vice President; Jefferson Davis becomes a Corps Commander in the AoT; Fort Sumter/Bull Run still happens; Patrick Cleburne is placed under Davis' command; Fort Henry is never used; Fort Donnelson is supplied efficiently and giving enough men to last a lengthy siege; ASJ takes all remaining supplies out of Richmond and prepares to force a Union force to battle him in Mississippi; The Army of the Ohio floats down the Ohio and captures Memphis. Fort Sumter actually began with Northern Cannons, not Southern Cannons, opening fire, thus technically meaning the war was born from Northern Aggression. Most of WV decides to stay with VA, though the northernmost part leaves (and is incorporated into PA), KY and MO attempt to leave only for Linoln to sent in the troops. Same can be said for MA and DE. Montgomery remains CSA Capital. 1862) Really big changes here. ASJ defeats Buell in MS and destroys the AotO, events in VA happens p much similar to OTL, with Lincoln wanting to take Richmond in order to recapture VA; Lee invades MD as in OTL, though at Antietam, Lincoln dies, just like how George B. McClellan dies at Malvern Hill while Fitz John Porter is fired. Hannibal Hamlin turns out to be a horrible President for the War and an ineffective military leader. The CSA liberates MO and KY from USA occupation after the AotO's defeat and Grant's defeat. An attempt to land at Mobile Bay is repulsed by the Confederate Army of Southern Alabama, commanded by Jeff Davis (Polk gets his potistion). 1863) The CSA focuses on defending the territory they have, though there are occasional pushes to the North, with the biggest being something akins to Gettysburg. The battle proves to be a disaster and Lee decides to resign from his position as General. All other commanders of the AoNV refuse to become a general of the Army due to them beliving they aren't ready for a fulkl army of Command. Breckenridge decides to promote the exceptional SiC to AoSA General Jefferson Davis, Patrick Cleburne, to command the AoNV. He accepts and proves an exceptional commander as he forces the Union into many astounding defeats. 1864) The Union, desperate for victory, decides to launch a six sided martial push. The Armies of Iowa, Kansas, and West Illinois will strike Missouri, the Armies of Indiana and South Illinois strike Kentucky, the new Army of Ohio plus a reformed AotP, and a newly made Army of Maryland assaults Virginia, The Union Army of Alabama (Made up of Southerners who defected to the Union) launches an invasion of Alabama while the Army of Louisiana (same make-up of the AoA) is alucnhed to take Vicksburg. Finally, there is an attempt to take the city of Charleston. All major pushes fail, though the Push in KY and MO sees some success. DC, MD, and DE is left unguarded and all three quickly fall to the AoNV as the US Government flees to Philly. Hamlin loses 1864 in a landslide to Peace Democrats. 1865) Peace is finally negotiated with the CSA holding all the states they currently hold, as well as annexing DC into Virginia. Also, the Indian and Arizona Territories are to hold votes to decide their fates later in the year. The treaty is signed in Madrid, Spain and ends the War of Southern Independence, as it's called in this TL. Now, would anyone be interested in assisting me in this TL as I might need some help in it? You would be credited for the help, of course.
Damn it made a post then had some finger problems.
You have a number of POD here, including the north firing 1st at Ft Summer, Lincoln dying, the north being the 1st to breach the neutrality of Kentucky, as well as Breckenridge being selected as CSA President rather than Davis and the capital staying in Montgomery. A few questions and points please? a) Does the south avoid the easy loss of New Orleans, which would be a big boost to them.
b) How do they manage with a tightening blockade which will cause a fair amount of problems in terms of funds and equipment shortages as well as strain on internal communications.
c) If Lee did decide to resign like that after a disastrous defeat then I'm not sure that his subordinates would all refuse an offer to take over. Or that it would then go to a relatively low level figure like Cleburne who, IIRC 1st volunteered as a private, albeit his earlier experience in the British army and competence saw him promoted pretty quickly. More likely someone like Davis - who would probably have made a markedly better general than president - would have been given the role. Are you prompting Cleburne because his OTL willingness to arm slaves might be the basis for an early move to end slavery in the south. With it doing so much better I suspect any such proposal is unlikely to occur here and if it did to be rejected quickly.
d) Also Cleburne would have a big job simply rebuilding the AoNV if it suffered that bad a defeat. If he introduced British training methods and had the time and resources to implement them even in a small proportion of units that would help considerably however.
e) That is a very big CSA and I would expect the Indian Territory to go with the south although less knowledgeable about Arizona. Expect also that the north, which would still have greater population and industrial resources, although likely to be markedly damaged by the result to be a serious threat for some time to come, especially in the key border states.
f) Will you be looking at longer term results and events elsewhere in the world? Not sure what would happen with Mexico and the French intervention. Given the earlier butterflies do they even still pick Maximilian as a puppet emperor? If the CSA seeks to expand slavery or say take Cuba as some of the hotheads were arguing for they are likely to fail badly because Britain and depending on the circumstances the US are going to oppose such a move. There will be greater butterflies of course, especially depending on what happens in the rump north. It will have less resources and higher military spending so its OTL economic development will be delayed somewhat, possibly quite a lot if the wrong decisions are made. As such Alaska, Hawaii and Cuba are unlikely to see American control in TTL.
Do you know of the USCW site? It has a small AH site although no real TLs at the moment but plenty of people who know a hell of a lot about the conflict.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Steve
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genyodectes
Warrant Officer
I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
Posts: 226
Likes: 119
|
Post by genyodectes on Jan 28, 2020 14:28:05 GMT
Alright, so I have a small outline for an Alternate US CW TL that I'll try to write ASAP if some help is possible. Here are some of the things that are different from the get go. 1861) John C. Breckenridge is elected President of the CSA and has Howell Cobb as his Vice President; Jefferson Davis becomes a Corps Commander in the AoT; Fort Sumter/Bull Run still happens; Patrick Cleburne is placed under Davis' command; Fort Henry is never used; Fort Donnelson is supplied efficiently and giving enough men to last a lengthy siege; ASJ takes all remaining supplies out of Richmond and prepares to force a Union force to battle him in Mississippi; The Army of the Ohio floats down the Ohio and captures Memphis. Fort Sumter actually began with Northern Cannons, not Southern Cannons, opening fire, thus technically meaning the war was born from Northern Aggression. Most of WV decides to stay with VA, though the northernmost part leaves (and is incorporated into PA), KY and MO attempt to leave only for Linoln to sent in the troops. Same can be said for MA and DE. Montgomery remains CSA Capital. 1862) Really big changes here. ASJ defeats Buell in MS and destroys the AotO, events in VA happens p much similar to OTL, with Lincoln wanting to take Richmond in order to recapture VA; Lee invades MD as in OTL, though at Antietam, Lincoln dies, just like how George B. McClellan dies at Malvern Hill while Fitz John Porter is fired. Hannibal Hamlin turns out to be a horrible President for the War and an ineffective military leader. The CSA liberates MO and KY from USA occupation after the AotO's defeat and Grant's defeat. An attempt to land at Mobile Bay is repulsed by the Confederate Army of Southern Alabama, commanded by Jeff Davis (Polk gets his potistion). 1863) The CSA focuses on defending the territory they have, though there are occasional pushes to the North, with the biggest being something akins to Gettysburg. The battle proves to be a disaster and Lee decides to resign from his position as General. All other commanders of the AoNV refuse to become a general of the Army due to them beliving they aren't ready for a fulkl army of Command. Breckenridge decides to promote the exceptional SiC to AoSA General Jefferson Davis, Patrick Cleburne, to command the AoNV. He accepts and proves an exceptional commander as he forces the Union into many astounding defeats. 1864) The Union, desperate for victory, decides to launch a six sided martial push. The Armies of Iowa, Kansas, and West Illinois will strike Missouri, the Armies of Indiana and South Illinois strike Kentucky, the new Army of Ohio plus a reformed AotP, and a newly made Army of Maryland assaults Virginia, The Union Army of Alabama (Made up of Southerners who defected to the Union) launches an invasion of Alabama while the Army of Louisiana (same make-up of the AoA) is alucnhed to take Vicksburg. Finally, there is an attempt to take the city of Charleston. All major pushes fail, though the Push in KY and MO sees some success. DC, MD, and DE is left unguarded and all three quickly fall to the AoNV as the US Government flees to Philly. Hamlin loses 1864 in a landslide to Peace Democrats. 1865) Peace is finally negotiated with the CSA holding all the states they currently hold, as well as annexing DC into Virginia. Also, the Indian and Arizona Territories are to hold votes to decide their fates later in the year. The treaty is signed in Madrid, Spain and ends the War of Southern Independence, as it's called in this TL. Now, would anyone be interested in assisting me in this TL as I might need some help in it? You would be credited for the help, of course.
Damn it made a post then had some finger problems.
You have a number of POD here, including the north firing 1st at Ft Summer, Lincoln dying, the north being the 1st to breach the neutrality of Kentucky, as well as Breckenridge being selected as CSA President rather than Davis and the capital staying in Montgomery. A few questions and points please? a) Does the south avoid the easy loss of New Orleans, which would be a big boost to them.
b) How do they manage with a tightening blockade which will cause a fair amount of problems in terms of funds and equipment shortages as well as strain on internal communications.
c) If Lee did decide to resign like that after a disastrous defeat then I'm not sure that his subordinates would all refuse an offer to take over. Or that it would then go to a relatively low level figure like Cleburne who, IIRC 1st volunteered as a private, albeit his earlier experience in the British army and competence saw him promoted pretty quickly. More likely someone like Davis - who would probably have made a markedly better general than president - would have been given the role. Are you prompting Cleburne because his OTL willingness to arm slaves might be the basis for an early move to end slavery in the south. With it doing so much better I suspect any such proposal is unlikely to occur here and if it did to be rejected quickly.
d) Also Cleburne would have a big job simply rebuilding the AoNV if it suffered that bad a defeat. If he introduced British training methods and had the time and resources to implement them even in a small proportion of units that would help considerably however.
e) That is a very big CSA and I would expect the Indian Territory to go with the south although less knowledgeable about Arizona. Expect also that the north, which would still have greater population and industrial resources, although likely to be markedly damaged by the result to be a serious threat for some time to come, especially in the key border states.
f) Will you be looking at longer term results and events elsewhere in the world? Not sure what would happen with Mexico and the French intervention. Given the earlier butterflies do they even still pick Maximilian as a puppet emperor? If the CSA seeks to expand slavery or say take Cuba as some of the hotheads were arguing for they are likely to fail badly because Britain and depending on the circumstances the US are going to oppose such a move. There will be greater butterflies of course, especially depending on what happens in the rump north. It will have less resources and higher military spending so its OTL economic development will be delayed somewhat, possibly quite a lot if the wrong decisions are made. As such Alaska, Hawaii and Cuba are unlikely to see American control in TTL.
Do you know of the USCW site? It has a small AH site although no real TLs at the moment but plenty of people who know a hell of a lot about the conflict.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Steve
a) The South avoids the loss of New Orleans for at least the first two years of the war, which helps them quite well enough. b) Considering they lasted over four years IOTL even with a tightened Blockade, in this TL they would likely last just the same and loot Union Armories for supplies. c) Alright, I said it in the post that he was Davis' Second in Command in the Army of Southern Alabama after he proved himself in the MS, TN, KY, and MO campaigns. Davis was more comfortable serving as leader of the AoSA (considering he was defending the Nation's capital AND his home state) then leading the AoNV, Longstreet and Jackson both know their limits (Both men knew that their tactics and strategy only worked on the brigade/corps level and they wouldn't be able to command an Army because of that. They actually reccomend Cleburne do to his actions having made him somewhat of an Icon in the west. Cleburne never makes the Slave for soldiers comments since when he said IOTL, the South was losing really badly while here, their doing great. d) He does indeed invite British training method and even brings along a few regiments that he commanded/served in to better bolster the army. e) Yeah, the Union will be a major threat, though it'll have it's own troubles following the War (There would be a lot of other regional cries for independence after such a humiliating defeat). f) I will be looking at the longer term results and will be writing about them once this TL is over. I actually have the 1861 and 1867 CSA Presidential Elections done as Infoboxes. I'll post them relatively shortly. Besides that, no spoilers. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try anf get people to help me from there. |
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