ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 12:10:04 GMT
Alternate timelines introduction
I started writing this timeline around the middle of last year. Progress has been slow, but I thought that I might start re-posting it over here.
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ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 12:10:52 GMT
Introduction
What is this?
Thank you for asking. The general plan is that I might have another go at writing a TL after the last one rather ground to a halt (it was not very good anyway – a lot of people have written a lot better WW1 at sea TL than I can).
So what is the POD?
Well I still need to do some research, but the plan is that it will be at the Battle of the Marne…
So will the Germans win?
Bit rude to interrupt fictional person. No, though that might make sense I need the British to win due to personal reasons.
The British and the French one OTL?
Yes but they will win even better ITTL
If one has an idea, what should one do?
Tell me, if you write more than a sentence I may even make it official.
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ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 12:11:22 GMT
Battle of the Marne
So the POD is that the British and French troops are less excused after the Marne. OTL the Germans lost “11,717 prisoners, 30 field guns and 100 machine-guns to the French and 3,500 prisoners to the British before reaching the Aisne.”- Wikipedia
ITTL the Germans face disaster as the Anglo-French forces as push with their last strength, the Germans lose another 50,000 men, mostly taken prisoner. Furthermore, the German supply train comes under heavy attack, losing another 30 field guns and 50 machine-guns. This therefore brings the total causalities to 300,000 men.
Henceforth, the Germans had suffered a much worse disaster, especially considering that in the withdrawal many divisions were reduced below fighting strength, forcing them in the coming months to reorganise, reducing their combative effectiveness further. It was with good reason that Molke could report to the Kaiser that German had lost the war…
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ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 12:12:15 GMT
The war August - November
The Eastern front
The August Battle of Tannenberg was a critical defeat for the Russians. With the Russian Steam roller stopped, the temptation to move troops back out west must have been strong in the German high command. However, the decision was made to keep the Ninth army out east following up after Tannenberg, with the end goal of at least driving the Russians off German soil.
The Russians were general driven back, with both sides resorting to Trench warfare across a front down the middle of Poland. The Russians had a man power advantage, but their army was poorly equipped.
On the 24th, an offensive was launched to capture Warsaw, to attempt to give the Germans a better hand at any peace conference, despite the Kaiser continual resistance to this idea.
The Western front
The Germans were in retreat throughout the rest of September. Various attempts to entrench and hold ground were overwhelmed. On the 10th of October the Siege of Antwerp was broken by advancing British forces. From the 12th to the 20th the battle of the Meuse raged, with the Germans attempting to launch a successful offence, but ultimately the allies managed to hold off.
On the 21th, the French Forces capture Thornville after heavy fighting, denying the German forces much needed iron. Towards the beginning of November there were signs that the Germans might be able to use trench warfare to stabilise their front along their western boarder. The French prepared for an offensive at Savern, which took place on the 15th. Despite a hard defence, the German forces were running low on critical supplies, and by the 22nd, Strasbourg was “Liberated”. With French troops at the Rhine, the German high command advised the Kaiser to seek a negotiated peace, which he was extremely reluctant to do.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2020 12:35:17 GMT
ferd42 , Interesting idea but I'm doubtful that the French would have much success in the south given how fortified it was, - thinking of your reported fall of Strasbourg. It really needs more successful pressure on the retreating forces in the north. Both sides were exhausted after the allied retreat to the Marne and then marching back across the already war drained territory so its going to be difficult but might be possible to achieve a more dramatic success. I suspect that wouldn't be decisive in itself but possibly if you could liberate much of occupied France and say the northern half of Belgium that would be a big boost for the western allies. Its unlikely to get a negotiated peace but it would give the western powers a markedly better position with most of the French industrial centre regained and hence denied the Germans.
In terms of the sea possibly you could have Goeben intercepted, preferably by the I class 'BCs' before she reaches Constantinople. It probably wouldn't prevent the Ottoman joining the CP as a number of the main members of the regime were already heavily committed but, alone with better allied positions elsewhere might delay it and make the government more divided over it. Also if the battle while still a British victory sees a I class ship explode or nearly do so it might highlight questions on ammo handling - if it was being abused then which frankly I'm uncertain of.
On the eastern front I have been reading Lordroel WWI day by day thread which has a hell of a lot of data and could probably give you some good ideas. The German 9thA finally forced a withdrawal from Lodz but it was bloody close and at one point, as mentioned in that thread the Russians pulled back from not attacking withdrawing retiring German forces because of their numbers not realising the bulk of the men they could see were actually Russian POWs being escorted back from the front! Possibly changing that and the Germans suffer a clear defeat here with a good chunk of the army lost. Alternatively, although I think it was a little before this, the Russian brought a couple of armies north from where they were fighting the Austrians to fight in the battle around Lodz. Without this they might still have lost but given the poor communications and autumn rains those forces moved quite slowly and were short of supplies, restricting their impacts on the battle. If some of them had been kept in the south you could have seen an even greater crisis for the Austrians and possibly Russian forces getting through the Carpathians and onto the Hungarian plains.
A lot might depend on what sort of allied victory your after. A relatively quick and limited one where Germany and Austria come to terms say in late 1914 or a longer slog before their defeated more clearly than OTL Anyway an interesting start and hope the above helps.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2020 12:42:14 GMT
Alternate timelines introduction
I started writing this timeline around the middle of last year. Progress has been slow, but I thought that I might start re-posting it over here. Nice to see your TL here ferd42. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2020 13:31:16 GMT
Alternate timelines introduction
I started writing this timeline around the middle of last year. Progress has been slow, but I thought that I might start re-posting it over here. Nice to see your TL here ferd42 .
Duh, sorry. Misread your 1st post - getting impatient for my lunch and didn't realise you were new here. Welcome aboard  and the thread I mentioned is in the Off Topic section under the General Historical Discussion heading. Lordroel has put a number of very interesting and informative threads like this together and it might be of interest for your current TL.
Steve
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ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 14:31:02 GMT
ferd42 , Interesting idea but I'm doubtful that the French would have much success in the south given how fortified it was, - thinking of your reported fall of Strasbourg. It really needs more successful pressure on the retreating forces in the north. Both sides were exhausted after the allied retreat to the Marne and then marching back across the already war drained territory so its going to be difficult but might be possible to achieve a more dramatic success. I suspect that wouldn't be decisive in itself but possibly if you could liberate much of occupied France and say the northern half of Belgium that would be a big boost for the western allies. Its unlikely to get a negotiated peace but it would give the western powers a markedly better position with most of the French industrial centre regained and hence denied the Germans.
In terms of the sea possibly you could have Goeben intercepted, preferably by the I class 'BCs' before she reaches Constantinople. It probably wouldn't prevent the Ottoman joining the CP as a number of the main members of the regime were already heavily committed but, alone with better allied positions elsewhere might delay it and make the government more divided over it. Also if the battle while still a British victory sees a I class ship explode or nearly do so it might highlight questions on ammo handling - if it was being abused then which frankly I'm uncertain of.
On the eastern front I have been reading Lordroel WWI day by day thread which has a hell of a lot of data and could probably give you some good ideas. The German 9thA finally forced a withdrawal from Lodz but it was bloody close and at one point, as mentioned in that thread the Russians pulled back from not attacking withdrawing retiring German forces because of their numbers not realising the bulk of the men they could see were actually Russian POWs being escorted back from the front! Possibly changing that and the Germans suffer a clear defeat here with a good chunk of the army lost. Alternatively, although I think it was a little before this, the Russian brought a couple of armies north from where they were fighting the Austrians to fight in the battle around Lodz. Without this they might still have lost but given the poor communications and autumn rains those forces moved quite slowly and were short of supplies, restricting their impacts on the battle. If some of them had been kept in the south you could have seen an even greater crisis for the Austrians and possibly Russian forces getting through the Carpathians and onto the Hungarian plains.
A lot might depend on what sort of allied victory your after. A relatively quick and limited one where Germany and Austria come to terms say in late 1914 or a longer slog before their defeated more clearly than OTL Anyway an interesting start and hope the above helps.
Steve
Thank you for your feedback. That bit could have been better done. It may just have to stand now, sorry. I have not really thought about the naval combat side very much, I might act upon what you say about Gobben. On the other hand, I feel that there are far better British Naval timelines out there and I feel any attempt I make at this would be a failure in comparison. I will look into it for the next chapter. The goal is to try an get a negotiated peace, as the title suggests. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2020 14:37:03 GMT
ferd42 , Interesting idea but I'm doubtful that the French would have much success in the south given how fortified it was, - thinking of your reported fall of Strasbourg. It really needs more successful pressure on the retreating forces in the north. Both sides were exhausted after the allied retreat to the Marne and then marching back across the already war drained territory so its going to be difficult but might be possible to achieve a more dramatic success. I suspect that wouldn't be decisive in itself but possibly if you could liberate much of occupied France and say the northern half of Belgium that would be a big boost for the western allies. Its unlikely to get a negotiated peace but it would give the western powers a markedly better position with most of the French industrial centre regained and hence denied the Germans. In terms of the sea possibly you could have Goeben intercepted, preferably by the I class 'BCs' before she reaches Constantinople. It probably wouldn't prevent the Ottoman joining the CP as a number of the main members of the regime were already heavily committed but, alone with better allied positions elsewhere might delay it and make the government more divided over it. Also if the battle while still a British victory sees a I class ship explode or nearly do so it might highlight questions on ammo handling - if it was being abused then which frankly I'm uncertain of.
On the eastern front I have been reading Lordroel WWI day by day thread which has a hell of a lot of data and could probably give you some good ideas. The German 9thA finally forced a withdrawal from Lodz but it was bloody close and at one point, as mentioned in that thread the Russians pulled back from not attacking withdrawing retiring German forces because of their numbers not realising the bulk of the men they could see were actually Russian POWs being escorted back from the front! Possibly changing that and the Germans suffer a clear defeat here with a good chunk of the army lost. Alternatively, although I think it was a little before this, the Russian brought a couple of armies north from where they were fighting the Austrians to fight in the battle around Lodz. Without this they might still have lost but given the poor communications and autumn rains those forces moved quite slowly and were short of supplies, restricting their impacts on the battle. If some of them had been kept in the south you could have seen an even greater crisis for the Austrians and possibly Russian forces getting through the Carpathians and onto the Hungarian plains. A lot might depend on what sort of allied victory your after. A relatively quick and limited one where Germany and Austria come to terms say in late 1914 or a longer slog before their defeated more clearly than OTL Anyway an interesting start and hope the above helps. Steve
Thank you for your feedback. That bit could have been better done. It may just have to stand now, sorry. I have not really thought about the naval combat side very much, I might act upon what you say about Gobben. On the other hand, I feel that there are far better British Naval timelines out there and I feel any attempt I make at this would be a failure in comparison. I will look into it for the next chapter. The goal is to try an get a negotiated peace, as the title suggests. Well its going to have a nice name, the Christmas Peace Deal. |
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ferd42
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Post by ferd42 on Jan 17, 2020 14:44:38 GMT
Thank you for your feedback. That bit could have been better done. It may just have to stand now, sorry. I have not really thought about the naval combat side very much, I might act upon what you say about Gobben. On the other hand, I feel that there are far better British Naval timelines out there and I feel any attempt I make at this would be a failure in comparison. I will look into it for the next chapter. The goal is to try an get a negotiated peace, as the title suggests. Well its going to have a nice name, the Christmas Peace Deal. Christmas Armistice maybe. A treaty will take far longer than 24 days. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2020 14:48:27 GMT
Well its going to have a nice name, the Christmas Peace Deal. Christmas Armistice maybe. A treaty will take far longer than 24 days. A Armistice can have a lot of effect, even if it last only a month. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 17, 2020 15:34:53 GMT
ferd42 , Interesting idea but I'm doubtful that the French would have much success in the south given how fortified it was, - thinking of your reported fall of Strasbourg. It really needs more successful pressure on the retreating forces in the north. Both sides were exhausted after the allied retreat to the Marne and then marching back across the already war drained territory so its going to be difficult but might be possible to achieve a more dramatic success. I suspect that wouldn't be decisive in itself but possibly if you could liberate much of occupied France and say the northern half of Belgium that would be a big boost for the western allies. Its unlikely to get a negotiated peace but it would give the western powers a markedly better position with most of the French industrial centre regained and hence denied the Germans.
In terms of the sea possibly you could have Goeben intercepted, preferably by the I class 'BCs' before she reaches Constantinople. It probably wouldn't prevent the Ottoman joining the CP as a number of the main members of the regime were already heavily committed but, alone with better allied positions elsewhere might delay it and make the government more divided over it. Also if the battle while still a British victory sees a I class ship explode or nearly do so it might highlight questions on ammo handling - if it was being abused then which frankly I'm uncertain of.
On the eastern front I have been reading Lordroel WWI day by day thread which has a hell of a lot of data and could probably give you some good ideas. The German 9thA finally forced a withdrawal from Lodz but it was bloody close and at one point, as mentioned in that thread the Russians pulled back from not attacking withdrawing retiring German forces because of their numbers not realising the bulk of the men they could see were actually Russian POWs being escorted back from the front! Possibly changing that and the Germans suffer a clear defeat here with a good chunk of the army lost. Alternatively, although I think it was a little before this, the Russian brought a couple of armies north from where they were fighting the Austrians to fight in the battle around Lodz. Without this they might still have lost but given the poor communications and autumn rains those forces moved quite slowly and were short of supplies, restricting their impacts on the battle. If some of them had been kept in the south you could have seen an even greater crisis for the Austrians and possibly Russian forces getting through the Carpathians and onto the Hungarian plains.
A lot might depend on what sort of allied victory your after. A relatively quick and limited one where Germany and Austria come to terms say in late 1914 or a longer slog before their defeated more clearly than OTL Anyway an interesting start and hope the above helps.
Steve
Thank you for your feedback. That bit could have been better done. It may just have to stand now, sorry. I have not really thought about the naval combat side very much, I might act upon what you say about Gobben. On the other hand, I feel that there are far better British Naval timelines out there and I feel any attempt I make at this would be a failure in comparison. I will look into it for the next chapter. The goal is to try an get a negotiated peace, as the title suggests.
Definitely not on form today. Should have noticed the actual TL title!! Too much haste today.
Anyway, depending on the circumstances of the treaty it could make for an interesting post-1914 period. Germany will be defeated but still the most powerful nation in Europe and I suspect both sides will expect/fear a rematch. Although with the apparent rise of Russia there could be political changes in a few years. All depends on how things work but definitely and interesting world and provided there's not another big war soon a lot more people living longer in Europe especially.
Steve
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and the thread I mentioned is in the Off Topic section under the General Historical Discussion heading. Lordroel has put a number of very interesting and informative threads like this together and it might be of interest for your current TL.