lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 12, 2020 20:19:31 GMT
Map: The Roman Empire vs. The Mongol Empire At Their Respective Peaks
The map below shows how big the Roman and Mongol Empires were at their respective peaks. The Mongols had the world’s largest contiguous land based Empire in history (and the second largest overall after the British), but just how much bigger was it than Rome? Mongol Empire: 24 million km2 (9.27 million mi2), 17.81% of world land area in 1270 or 1309. Roman Empire: 5.0 million km2 (1.93 million mi2), 3.71% of world land area in 117. 
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 30, 2020 13:44:19 GMT
Impressive. I wonder who would’ve come out on top of the two empires had a dispute over who owns their overlapping lands, among other things.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 30, 2020 14:48:21 GMT
Impressive. I wonder who would’ve come out on top of the two empires had a dispute over who owns their overlapping lands, among other things. The Roman Empire and the Mongol Empire each have their own strength and weakness in battle. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2020 13:08:22 GMT
Impressive. I wonder who would’ve come out on top of the two empires had a dispute over who owns their overlapping lands, among other things.
It might depend on the status of each empire, what condition they were in, who was leading etc. By the time the Mongol empire reached the size shown it had already splintered. While Kublai Khan was officially recognised as the supreme Khan - after a bitter civil war - he had limited support from some of the other rulers and the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde were frequently clashing. Coupled with Kublai desire to secure the rest of China and the sheer distance its pretty much impossible to have the eastern Khanates help the western ones to any great degree. However even the two western ones, if they don't fight between themselves would be a huge challenge to even a well run Rome at its height.
Even so if the latter was strong and well governed I could see it survive and probably even 'win' the security of its eastern borders simply because the Mongols would have limited manpower, depending on how much they could recruit from their subject people. I can't see any chance of Roman forces marching to China however, or even into Central Asia while even any lasting conquest of say the Iran area could be beyond them.
Which does raise and issue with a pagan Roman empire and the Mongol western territories being largely occupied by Muslims and assorted Christians as to how they would interact.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 31, 2020 13:15:30 GMT
Impressive. I wonder who would’ve come out on top of the two empires had a dispute over who owns their overlapping lands, among other things. It might depend on the status of each empire, what condition they were in, who was leading etc. By the time the Mongol empire reached the size shown it had already splintered. While Kublai Khan was officially recognised as the supreme Khan - after a bitter civil war - he had limited support from some of the other rulers and the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde were frequently clashing. Coupled with Kublai desire to secure the rest of China and the sheer distance its pretty much impossible to have the eastern Khanates help the western ones to any great degree. However even the two western ones, if they don't fight between themselves would be a huge challenge to even a well run Rome at its height. Even so if the latter was strong and well governed I could see it survive and probably even 'win' the security of its eastern borders simply because the Mongols would have limited manpower, depending on how much they could recruit from their subject people. I can't see any chance of Roman forces marching to China however, or even into Central Asia while even any lasting conquest of say the Iran area could be beyond them.
Which does raise and issue with a pagan Roman empire and the Mongol western territories being largely occupied by Muslims and assorted Christians as to how they would interact.
I did some searching, do not know if the figures are correct, but the Roman Empire in 117 had a population of 50 to 90 million inhabitants while the Mongol Empire had some 110 million people living in it around the 1270 period. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2020 13:25:43 GMT
It might depend on the status of each empire, what condition they were in, who was leading etc. By the time the Mongol empire reached the size shown it had already splintered. While Kublai Khan was officially recognised as the supreme Khan - after a bitter civil war - he had limited support from some of the other rulers and the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde were frequently clashing. Coupled with Kublai desire to secure the rest of China and the sheer distance its pretty much impossible to have the eastern Khanates help the western ones to any great degree. However even the two western ones, if they don't fight between themselves would be a huge challenge to even a well run Rome at its height. Even so if the latter was strong and well governed I could see it survive and probably even 'win' the security of its eastern borders simply because the Mongols would have limited manpower, depending on how much they could recruit from their subject people. I can't see any chance of Roman forces marching to China however, or even into Central Asia while even any lasting conquest of say the Iran area could be beyond them.
Which does raise and issue with a pagan Roman empire and the Mongol western territories being largely occupied by Muslims and assorted Christians as to how they would interact.
I did some searching, do not know if the figures are correct, but the Roman Empire in 117 had a population of 50 to 90 million inhabitants while the Mongol Empire had some 110 million people living in it around the 1270 period.
That sounds a bit low for the Mongols considering the territory they control but then their initial occupation was often bloody. However if their accurate then I can't see the Mongols conquering Rome as too many of those people are several thousand miles away in E Asia as well as peasants who probably aren't too friendly to their Mongol overlords. There will be sizeable populations in Iran, Central Asia and also the eastern Anatolia area if they start off with that but how supportive those people would be if given a chance to escape Mongol rule once the latter's saw a check/defeat.
Again assuming that Rome is somewhere near its height, which would probably be ~117AD, although since its also when Trajan died it means that Hadrian is going to face a hell of a challenge.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 31, 2020 13:33:09 GMT
I did some searching, do not know if the figures are correct, but the Roman Empire in 117 had a population of 50 to 90 million inhabitants while the Mongol Empire had some 110 million people living in it around the 1270 period. That sounds a bit low for the Mongols considering the territory they control but then their initial occupation was often bloody. However if their accurate then I can't see the Mongols conquering Rome as too many of those people are several thousand miles away in E Asia as well as peasants who probably aren't too friendly to their Mongol overlords. There will be sizeable populations in Iran, Central Asia and also the eastern Anatolia area if they start off with that but how supportive those people would be if given a chance to escape Mongol rule once the latter's saw a check/defeat. Again assuming that Rome is somewhere near its height, which would probably be ~117AD, although since its also when Trajan died it means that Hadrian is going to face a hell of a challenge.
Did find this, ROMAN EMPIRE POPULATIONA Roman Army of 500,000 in size, spread across the empire, could they stop the Mongol Army, have checked and never topped above the 300,000 mark: Genghis Khan and 13th-Century AirLand Battle |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 31, 2020 14:30:18 GMT
That sounds a bit low for the Mongols considering the territory they control but then their initial occupation was often bloody. However if their accurate then I can't see the Mongols conquering Rome as too many of those people are several thousand miles away in E Asia as well as peasants who probably aren't too friendly to their Mongol overlords. There will be sizeable populations in Iran, Central Asia and also the eastern Anatolia area if they start off with that but how supportive those people would be if given a chance to escape Mongol rule once the latter's saw a check/defeat. Again assuming that Rome is somewhere near its height, which would probably be ~117AD, although since its also when Trajan died it means that Hadrian is going to face a hell of a challenge.
Did find this, ROMAN EMPIRE POPULATIONA Roman Army of 500,000 in size, spread across the empire, could they stop the Mongol Army, have checked and never topped above the 300,000 mark: Genghis Khan and 13th-Century AirLand Battle
Interesting, thanks. As it says the population figures are pretty vague for just about any period and in Rome early census were of citizens, [or possibly only adult males] only. However by say 117 AD its probable that after a couple of decades of relative internal peace and stability I suspect most of the population were relatively content, other than probably a lot of the slaves. There are still problems on the frontiers and Trajan has only recently conquered the Dacia region, which is a bit different to what's shown on your map- i.e. it is more of a salient towards the Carpathians splitting up steppe attacks towards the Danube, or at least that's been suggested as the intent.
The Mongols have smaller forces, albeit that neither side would be able to combine their entire forces for a single front, let alone a single battle. However as the link you gave said they sought to avoid pitched battle if they could and to use mobility and distraction to wear down any opponent. Plus they have some big tech advantages having access to the stirrup, advanced composite bows and rockets and probably other gunpowder weapons. If the Romans can inflict a couple of big defeats on the Mongols the latter could face serious problems but that's not going to be easy.
Given the way the Mongols prepared, which I had forgotten about and assuming that we have the Mongols places in say 117 AD their likely to want to gather information about their new neighbour(s) and possibly, especially for those forces in the east, attacking other neighbours 1st. - If Rome was brought to say ~1260AD their going to have more immediate problems with the areas of Christian Europe - who will want to know what happened to the Pope and be very hostile to those pagan replacements with similar problems in parts of the south which are now Muslim.
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