lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 18, 2020 8:21:17 GMT
Mexico has a rather larger capacity than Brazil in @ or even Brazil on Dark Earth, yet it has chosen for a path of quality over quantity, deploying a corps sized unit (nominally) to Spain, with a further one to follow, eventually. A good choice it think, Mexican troops fighting in Spain, that is going to be epic. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 18, 2020 11:08:27 GMT
It is the circumstances that lead to that society that would be viewed as just as alien as the end result. On non-tangential matters, there is a host of little details contained in the total 1942 article which I'll outline later, but a few for initial consideration: - The South American powers and Mexico involved in the Mediterranean Theatre of Operations in 1942 would have a lot of causes, but quite a few more consequences - The Japanese are going to need some definite changes to last through until 1945; it will be interesting what others think they will be - Once Italy throws in the towel, then a lot of ships are going to be freed up from the Mediterranean for other duties, or at least, the central Mediterranean - What could be coming in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1943?
Good point. The idea of a semi-fascist set up after the rest of the world was defeated in a war with China wouldn't float at all in DE. Plus while DE is a lot more militaristic its also socially and politically more conservative so a story in which democracy is basically destroyed wouldn't go down very well.
Well as Lordroel said it will be interesting. Mexican forces have the advantage of a common language and some cultural similarities. Also the shared history but with a reversal- Mexican forces invading Spain - is going to cause a few comments at least. IIRC Mexico's emperor is descended from Maximilian, i.e. an Hapsburg rather than the Bourbon's in Spain but you could see the monarchy back in power earlier.
Definitely agree that Japan will need something to keep it afloat until 1945. Possibly some agreement with a faction in China? I think their main opponents are the KMT so could the way an imperial state is back in power in time to ally with the communists during the Korean war be because it makes a deal with the Japanese monarchy. That would get the imperial dynasty back in power and also free up a hell of a lot of Japanese forces. Or something magical happening which boosts either Japan or the Axis in general.
Alternatively it could be some major defeat for the western powers, or the transfer of resources to somewhere else, presumably the European theatre? There is already a substantial front in Iberia which is going to draw in forces on both sides. Although there are some military tensions in Latin America and I know one good TL when I was on AH where the Peru/Equador clash turned into a war involving most of S America. Which would distract a lot of effort.
As you say the clearing of N Africa and Italy surrendering will free up a lot of resources. Some extra units will be used in support of activities in Iberia but IIRC Constantinople is still fighting? If so there could be a move to liberate the rest of Greece and at least part of the Balkans. This would have the additional impact of opening up the best route to sending LL to Stalin, via the Black Sea. Also I can't remember is Turkey in the Axis here? If so they need to be sorted out to protect a lot of assets.
OTL 43 saw the turning point in the Atlantic and things should be even better here. Axis positions in Iberia will be a problem but their hopefully being removed and the allies have more forces here plus presumably the Iberian owned Atlantic islands.
Anyway initial ideas.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 18, 2020 14:50:41 GMT
Would the Project Habakkuk look like this simon darkshade .  Ore more like this.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 19, 2020 7:06:12 GMT
Lordroel, perhaps closer to the second, but not a direct facsimile of either. It certainly isn't going to carry what looks to be quadruple battleship turrets.
Steve,
- The reverse invasion will arouse comment, with the Imperial Mexican Army being one of several Latin American forces used in Spain and Portugal. The fascist Spanish government was toppled in a royalist coup as outlined, so the monarchists are definitely favoured by the Allies.
- Japan will encounter some more success in China due to the divided nature of its opposition; the Republicans are not the leading opposition there. Some of the big differences, however, will come at sea...
- Both the Spanish and Balkan fronts will be a large drain on troops and resources
- Ottoman Turkey was an Axis-aligned power, but dropped out of the war in early 1942 after the combination of defeats on land, the loss at sea and bombing of their cities pushed them over the edge. They are still a present threat, for the moment, as their action amounted to a ceasefire for complex political reasons. Therefore, there still needs to be a substantial field army maintained in Iraq and Syria, just in case.
- The bases are valuable against the U-Boats, but the entry into play of the Type XXIs will be a temporary setback.
Simon
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 8:54:45 GMT
L - The reverse invasion will arouse comment, with the Imperial Mexican Army being one of several Latin American forces used in Spain and Portugal. Simon So countries like Argentina are also involved. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2020 10:10:31 GMT
Lordroel, perhaps closer to the second, but not a direct facsimile of either. It certainly isn't going to carry what looks to be quadruple battleship turrets. Steve, - The reverse invasion will arouse comment, with the Imperial Mexican Army being one of several Latin American forces used in Spain and Portugal. The fascist Spanish government was toppled in a royalist coup as outlined, so the monarchists are definitely favoured by the Allies. - Japan will encounter some more success in China due to the divided nature of its opposition; the Republicans are not the leading opposition there. Some of the big differences, however, will come at sea... - Both the Spanish and Balkan fronts will be a large drain on troops and resources - Ottoman Turkey was an Axis-aligned power, but dropped out of the war in early 1942 after the combination of defeats on land, the loss at sea and bombing of their cities pushed them over the edge. They are still a present threat, for the moment, as their action amounted to a ceasefire for complex political reasons. Therefore, there still needs to be a substantial field army maintained in Iraq and Syria, just in case. - The bases are valuable against the U-Boats, but the entry into play of the Type XXIs will be a temporary setback. Simon
Thanks for the information. Had forgotten some of the details such as the royalist coup in Spain and the Ottoman ceasefire. Sounds like the Japanese will have a big success somewhere at sea however, possibly against a too ambitious US move. Could be an earlier and massed use of kamikazes?
So Germany gets the type XXI 2-3 years earlier than OTL. That will cause problems especially assuming their available in numbers and without all the flaws of the rushed design and construction of OTL.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 20, 2020 12:50:50 GMT
Lordroel,
Argentina, Brazil and Chile are all involved in 1942; others take longer.
Steve,
The Japanese success comes not so much in a decisive win at sea as a more significant success in their strategy, utilising more effective ASW, convoy escorts, rotating air crew and not losing their best in the Solomons/South Pacific war of attrition.
The Type XXIs will require a different approach to the earlier U Boats as well as the combination of new weapons and ships.
Simon
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 7:34:26 GMT
Lordroel, Argentina, Brazil and Chile are all involved in 1942; others take longer. Steve, The Japanese success comes not so much in a decisive win at sea as a more significant success in their strategy, utilising more effective ASW, convoy escorts, rotating air crew and not losing their best in the Solomons/South Pacific war of attrition. The Type XXIs will require a different approach to the earlier U Boats as well as the combination of new weapons and ships. Simon
You means basically the IJN actually use some common sense.  Although with the problems in SE Asia they might not have the same level of victory disease.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 21, 2020 8:12:36 GMT
Steve,
That is exactly what I mean. The impact of not having the direct triggers to victory disease from @ on top of the salutary lessons of taking part in the Great War on the Western Front makes for a very different Japanese military machine. In characteristic fashion, the process involves interservice violence, assassination and intrigue.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 31, 2020 16:04:46 GMT
The introduction to 1943:
"1943 marked the end of the period of deep war and saw the tide shift decisively in favour of the Allies, particularly as the awesome strength and productive capacity of the United States of America began to be felt across the world. The effective victory in the Battle of the Atlantic had allowed the flow of troops and supplies to Britain from the New World to be considerably increased, although new challenges would arise. Italy stood on the brink of defeat in the Mediterranean, seemingly opening up the vulnerable underbelly of Hitler's Fortress Europe and allowing the use of what Mussolini had once proudly declared to be Mare Nostrum for Allied convoys. Only the rump of the Kriegsmarine remained as a naval threat west of Suez, albeit one that had gradually grown with two years of gradual construction. The role of the aircraft carrier in the European war would now be primarily a weapon in support of operations on land rather than decisive action at sea. On the other side of the planet, the age of Japanese expansion had essentially drawn to a close, worn down by the battles of attrition in New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Malaya and Burma, but the IJN remained a capable and powerful force, despite being increasingly dwarfed by the vengeful United States Navy. Now the high tide of Japanese conquest would be repulsed and rolled back by two major assaults thousands of miles apart - the USN coming in from the east with mighty twin offensive drives in the Central and South Pacific and the Royal Navy pushing towards Indochina in the west.
This strategy was served by the sheer scale of Allied production and shipbuilding. The herculean achievements of American industry were only just yielding fruit, whereas British shipyards were now turning out the last major vessels of their earlier great armament. Eight light and six escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers, seventy-four destroyers and over two hundred and fifty escorts were commissioned by the Royal Navy over the course of 1943, along with considerable production from the Commonwealth and invaluable Lend Lease ships from the United States, which included 19 escort carriers. The attritional losses of the battles of 1942 had bit deeply into the capacity of Britain to support the Grand Fleet and her other widely dispersed squadrons and the immense logistical burden of supporting a huge fleet in the Far East sorely taxed even the considerable resources of the British Empire. One of the particular ways this manifested itself in 1943 was the draw down of Commonwealth naval forces in the South Pacific as Japan was pushed back to the north."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 31, 2020 16:16:46 GMT
The introduction to 1943: "1943 marked the end of the period of deep war and saw the tide shift decisively in favour of the Allies, particularly as the awesome strength and productive capacity of the United States of America began to be felt across the world. The effective victory in the Battle of the Atlantic had allowed the flow of troops and supplies to Britain from the New World to be considerably increased, although new challenges would arise. Italy stood on the brink of defeat in the Mediterranean, seemingly opening up the vulnerable underbelly of Hitler's Fortress Europe and allowing the use of what Mussolini had once proudly declared to be Mare Nostrum for Allied convoys. Only the rump of the Kriegsmarine remained as a naval threat west of Suez, albeit one that had gradually grown with two years of gradual construction. The role of the aircraft carrier in the European war would now be primarily a weapon in support of operations on land rather than decisive action at sea. On the other side of the planet, the age of Japanese expansion had essentially drawn to a close, worn down by the battles of attrition in New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Malaya and Burma, but the IJN remained a capable and powerful force, despite being increasingly dwarfed by the vengeful United States Navy. Now the high tide of Japanese conquest would be repulsed and rolled back by two major assaults thousands of miles apart - the USN coming in from the east with mighty twin offensive drives in the Central and South Pacific and the Royal Navy pushing towards Indochina in the west. This strategy was served by the sheer scale of Allied production and shipbuilding. The herculean achievements of American industry were only just yielding fruit, whereas British shipyards were now turning out the last major vessels of their earlier great armament. Eight light and six escort aircraft carriers, eight cruisers, seventy-four destroyers and over two hundred and fifty escorts were commissioned by the Royal Navy over the course of 1943, along with considerable production from the Commonwealth and invaluable Lend Lease ships from the United States, which included 19 escort carriers. The attritional losses of the battles of 1942 had bit deeply into the capacity of Britain to support the Grand Fleet and her other widely dispersed squadrons and the immense logistical burden of supporting a huge fleet in the Far East sorely taxed even the considerable resources of the British Empire. One of the particular ways this manifested itself in 1943 was the draw down of Commonwealth naval forces in the South Pacific as Japan was pushed back to the north." So by 1943 the Germans where no longer a threat in the Atlantic. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 31, 2020 17:51:25 GMT
At the beginning of 1943, the Allied perception was that the Battle of the Atlantic was won. This changed over the course of the year with the debut of the Type XXI, but this too was countered in due course.
The German surface fleet was boxed in and contained. There will be details of a battle that occurs during 1943.
However, at the beginning of the year, the Germans could give themselves the temporary delusion that the Kriegsmarine had the capacity for a breakout, having a strength of the following major vessels:
7 Battleships (1st Rates)
Hindenburg: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm 72 x 40mm, 32kts
Friedrich der Große:135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts
Grossdeutschland: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm 32kts
Mackensen: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts
Tirpitz: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts
Moltke: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts
Derrflinger: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts
3 Battleships (2nd Rate)
Scharnhorst: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts
Goeben: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts
Yorck: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts
2 Battleships (3rd Rates)
Sachsen: 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts
Baden : 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts
5 Battlecruisers
Thor
Arminius
Heimdall
Wotan
5 Aircraft Carriers
Graf Zeppelin
Otto Lilienthal
Friedrich Metzing
Werner Voss
Oswald Boelcke
On initial examination, that seems like a strong fleet and it is one of the strongest in the world. The problem is that it is up against the three stronger Allied navies, the Soviets, the RAF and the USAF. Whilst running low on oil supplies. And the Italians being neutralised, allowing the bulk of the fleet from there to be redeployed.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 31, 2020 20:33:13 GMT
At the beginning of 1943, the Allied perception was that the Battle of the Atlantic was won. This changed over the course of the year with the debut of the Type XXI, but this too was countered in due course. The German surface fleet was boxed in and contained. There will be details of a battle that occurs during 1943. However, at the beginning of the year, the Germans could give themselves the temporary delusion that the Kriegsmarine had the capacity for a breakout, having a strength of the following major vessels: 7 Battleships (1st Rates) Hindenburg: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm 72 x 40mm, 32kts Friedrich der Große:135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts Grossdeutschland: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm 32kts Mackensen: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts Tirpitz: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts Moltke: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts Derrflinger: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts 3 Battleships (2nd Rate) Scharnhorst: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts Goeben: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts Yorck: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts 2 Battleships (3rd Rates) Sachsen: 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts Baden : 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts 5 Battlecruisers Thor Arminius Heimdall Wotan 5 Aircraft Carriers Graf Zeppelin Otto Lilienthal Friedrich Metzing Werner Voss Oswald Boelcke On initial examination, that seems like a strong fleet and it is one of the strongest in the world. The problem is that it is up against the three stronger Allied navies, the Soviets, the RAF and the USAF. Whilst running low on oil supplies. And the Italians being neutralised, allowing the bulk of the fleet from there to be redeployed. I came late to this topic.
Simon am I missing something?
Those displacement tonnages are huge. Those guns are huge.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 31, 2020 20:35:00 GMT
At the beginning of 1943, the Allied perception was that the Battle of the Atlantic was won. This changed over the course of the year with the debut of the Type XXI, but this too was countered in due course. The German surface fleet was boxed in and contained. There will be details of a battle that occurs during 1943. However, at the beginning of the year, the Germans could give themselves the temporary delusion that the Kriegsmarine had the capacity for a breakout, having a strength of the following major vessels: 7 Battleships (1st Rates) Hindenburg: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm 72 x 40mm, 32kts Friedrich der Große:135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts Grossdeutschland: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm 32kts Mackensen: 135,000t, 8 x 600mm, 12 x 240mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 72 x 40mm, 32kts Tirpitz: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts Moltke: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts Derrflinger: 125,000t, 8 x 600mm, 24 x 128mm, 32 x 88mm, 56 x 40mm, 80 x 20mm, 32kts 3 Battleships (2nd Rate) Scharnhorst: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts Goeben: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts Yorck: 96,000t, 9 x 510mm, 16 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 48 x 37mm, 64 x 20mm, 33kts 2 Battleships (3rd Rates) Sachsen: 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts Baden : 69,000t, 8 x 480mm, 12 x 150mm, 20 x 105mm, 28.5kts 5 Battlecruisers Thor Arminius Heimdall Wotan 5 Aircraft Carriers Graf Zeppelin Otto Lilienthal Friedrich Metzing Werner Voss Oswald Boelcke On initial examination, that seems like a strong fleet and it is one of the strongest in the world. The problem is that it is up against the three stronger Allied navies, the Soviets, the RAF and the USAF. Whilst running low on oil supplies. And the Italians being neutralised, allowing the bulk of the fleet from there to be redeployed. I came late to this topic.
Simon am I missing something?
Those displacement tonnages are huge. Those guns are huge.
Welcome to the Darkearth verse as i call it where everything is bigger than what we are used to in OTL. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 1, 2020 4:28:45 GMT
It isn't just a matter of size. The first and foremost issue is that it is a completely different parallel universe, not simply an alternate history version of Earth.
Ship size and armament are two sides of the same coin.
The simple version is:
1.) They start off slightly larger due to a larger Dreadnought design from the get go.
2.) They grow at a steady rate between 1903 and 1943, without experiencing the circumstances of the WNT limitation.
Dreadnought comes into service in 1904 and displaces 25,000t compared to 18,000-19,000t due to an extra inch on the belt, increased range, an extra 12" main battery turret, superfiring guns and a few other changes.
In the British case, each subsequent class of 12" and 13.5" dreadnought and 15" superdreadnought is incrementally larger. By 1912, the Iron Dukes are 42,000t, 8 x 15", 20 x 6", 25kt ships with a 13.5" belt as compared to 30,000t, 10 x 13.5", 12 x 6", 21kt ships with a 12" belt. This represents a rise of 17,000t over 10 years as compared to 12,000t in @.
The next jump comes in the form of the Queen Elizabeths, which are 18" ships. The drivers for the jump from 15" to 18" were Russian and Japanese moves towards 16" ships, German plans for 16.5" and French and US developments in the same direction. The need to stay ahead of the development curve is always a big driver.
Superdreadnought Is
These are the first generation of larger ships that succeed the initial dreadnought classes for various nations. They ranged in size from 35,000t-42,000t and were armed with 14" or 15" guns. They all entered service before the Great War. The majority of the British, American, Japanese and French vessels of this type were decommissioned by 1930, although some did hang on for limited service in WW2.
Superdreadnought IIs
These vessels entered service during the first half of the Great War and represented the next advance forward in capability. They typically ranged in size from 45,000t-58,000t and were armed with 16" (Russia), 16.5" (Italy, Austria-Hungary) or 18" (USA, Britain, Japan, France, Germany) guns. Only the 18" ships were of any utility in the Second World War, and then essentially as Third Rates.
Superdreadnought IIIs
This type of ship was the product of late Great War design incorporating post Jutland lessons. Britain, the USA and Japan built 8, France 5, Italy 3, Spain 2; Austria's two ships came in the mid 1920s. These were the 20" generation and displaced between 64,000t and 72,000t, commissioning between 1920 and 1929 under the auspices of the Paris Naval Agreement. Their sizes aren't really different from the Tillmans.
Superdreadnought IVs
Completely unrestricted 24" ships built in a new arms race. 100,000t-125,000t initially, with the jump in displacement coming from the larger armament + additional range + additional protection + additional speed. Their displacements come from extrapolation from the fast 106,000t version of the Montanas, the ultimate versions of the Lion class design, the H class studies and Japanese projects, scaled up for the 24". That calibre was mooted in a USN design study from 1934 in @ and represents the largest practicable gun that could go to sea on Dark Earth in the 1930s.
This is for battleships; the big jump in carrier displacement occurs in late WW2 and the postwar supercarrier years.
There are a number of consequences to larger guns:
1.) Battlecruisers don't really keep up with the jump in sizes and the development of the fast battleship, but become a separate type for the top navies, albeit temporarily.
2.) Battleships with 14" and 15" guns can't even begin to compete. Even the few 16" ships still around are not suitable.
3.) Armour and gun technology continues considerable development between the wars.
4.) Larger ships can take more damage, resulting in the development of larger aerial weapons.
5.) Some doctrinal/strategic development occcurs differently.
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Although with the problems in SE Asia they might not have the same level of victory disease.