lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 12, 2020 9:51:06 GMT
The 24 old 18" battleships (16 QE/Royal Sovereign BB, 8 King Alfred/Renown BC) were to be retained for second-line service. Would would second-line service be exactly.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 12, 2020 12:18:10 GMT
The intention was for them to be employed on escort duty, shore bombardment, deployments in the South Atlantic, Africa and Indian Ocean and similar missions. In the actual Second World War, they were used extensively in the Mediterranean, Atlantic and Home Fleet, with the more modern battleships serving in the Grand Fleet (at Home 1939-1941 and the Far East 1942-1945).
Essentially, the Royal Navy worked on the basis of 1st, 2nd and 3rd class battleships.
The 1st class ships were the new construction 24" super battleships of the 1930s, serving with the main fleet against the Germans, Italians (briefly) and Japanese.
The 2nd class ships were the 1920s 20" ships, which, whilst smaller, were still well armed and armoured enough to go up against modern ships. The eight Nelsons were the mainstay of the Home Fleet after the Grand Fleet went out east to Singapore and 1-2 were also deployed to the Mediterranean, whilst Hood and the St. Georges served in the Far East and the Pacific.
The 3rd class ships were the Queen Elizabeths and Royal Sovereigns and their accompanying battlecruisers, the Great War era 18" ships. They provided the numbers to knock out the Spanish and Turks, to support amphibious landings, to escort key convoys and to keep the Axis bottled up in the Mediterranean. It is important to note that the Royal Sovereigns/R class are not what they are in almost every other timeline or AH work - slow vessels inferior to the QEs, but fast, decent ships.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 12, 2020 12:50:28 GMT
They have an armoured deck, but their size is sufficient so that it does not impact on their air group size. The historical RN had the following plans: The RN Naval Standards of 1934–36 (Hyperwar, British War Production Chapter II) Naval strength required by 1942: A.) Naval strength 1934 B.) 'D.R.C. standard' 1934–35 (Defence Requirements Sub Committee) C.) 'Two-power standard' 1935–36 Capital ships A.) 15 B.) 15 C.) 20 Aircraft carriers A.) 5 B.) 8 C.) 15 Cruisers A.) 50 B.) 70 C.) 100 Flotillas of destroyers A.) 9 B.) 16 C.) 22 Submarines A.) 50 B.) 55 C.) 82 Escort vessels, minesweepers, etc. A.) 51 B.) 120 C.) 226 The historical Tentative Fleet Plan called for the following: 18 Battleships 8 Fleet Carriers 5 Trade Protection Carriers 8 Heavy Cruisers 37 Large Light Cruisers 18 Small Cruisers 2 Fast Minelayers 114 Destroyers 3 AA Sloops 37 MS Sloops 13 Coastal Sloops On Dark Earth, the baseline threat is significantly larger in the 1932-1934 period when the New Standard Fleet Plan is implemented: Japan: 5 + 2 CV, 20 + 4 BB/BC Germany: 8 + 4 BB/BC Italy: 1 + 2 CV, 15 + 4 BB/BC USSR: 12 BB The NSFP called for the following fleet by 1944: 24 Battleships (+ 8 Nelson BB, 1 Hood, 4 St. George BC) 16 Fleet Carriers (+ 4 Ark Royals, 2 Incomparable, 4 Courageous) 8 Trade Protection Carriers (+ 4 Hawkins CVL) 24 Heavy Cruisers (+ 32 County CAs) 64 Light Cruisers (+ 36 Emerald/Leander CLs) 6 Minelayers 240 Destroyers (+ 236 WW1 Destroyers and 34 Interwar/Standard Type DDs) 80 Frigates 70 Minesweeping Sloops 90 Submarines The 24 old 18" battleships (16 QE/Royal Sovereign BB, 8 King Alfred/Renown BC) were to be retained for second-line service. An extra for the Counties: Kents: 4 ordered in 1923/24, 4 in 1924/25 Londons: 4 ordered in 1925/26, 4 in 1926/27 Surreys: 4 ordered in 1927/28, 4 ordered in 1928/29 Essex: 4 ordered in 1930/31, 4 ordered in 1931/32
Thanks. Didn't realise that the OTL plans were in some cases that large. Assuming that the two power plan excluded the USN from consideration.
The DE version is of course a lot larger, as are the ships involved. I had to do a double take with the Essex class counties because of course my initial thoughts were of the USN CVs. 32 Counties are a hell of a force even without their greater size.
Good point on the R's that their not downgraded Queen's in DE.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 12, 2020 13:00:54 GMT
Cheers Steve
The OTL plans are quite interesting and served as the basis for my Dark Earth force size thinking in the early stages. They certainly didn't include the USN in the two power plan in the 1930s.
The Dark Earth ships are larger and there are more of them, based on the threat of Japan, Italy and Germany, with the Soviets having a fleet that needed to be taken into account. Additionally, the Spanish, Austrians and Turks all have smaller fleets in the Mediterranean that could combine with Italy to be something rather problematic.
The RN's strategy is straightforward - 1.) Give the Germans a very heavy blow as soon as possible so they can be bottled up. 2.) Wear down the Italian numbers, especially with a strike on Taranto. 3.) Defeat the Spanish and Turks in detail through sharp, decisive battles that neutralise their threat 4.) Bring the Italians to battle and defeat them decisively. 5.) Main fleet to Singapore as soon as possible, whilst residual forces keep the Germans pinned down from Britain and the French handle the Mediterranean.
The Fall of France complicates this, but the French Fleet joins the British from the beginning.
The Essex class Counties were designed to have that momentary disorienting impact. The number of Counties is large, but the RN has a lot of ocean to cover and the number is driven by foreign fleet threats.
Having the Rs as assets rather than liabilities really changes the strategic calculus of the naval war in 1939-1942, allowing the more modern ships to be concentrated where they are needed.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 23, 2020 14:27:00 GMT
Here is a little preview of the history of British aircraft carriers in the Second World War. This is the first ~10% to give a little taste:
At the outbreak of the Second World War on September 1st 1939, the Royal Navy was the largest and most powerful fleet in the world, deploying over 700 vessels and possessed of a vast global network of fortified bases to support its operations. It's major warships consisted of 32 battleships, 10 battlecruisers, 12 fleet and 4 light aircraft carriers, 102 cruisers, 280 destroyers, 121 escorts, 66 sloops and corvettes and 86 submarines, with its most substantial forces concentrated in the British Isles and the Mediterranean. It faced a complex threat in the form of the growing German Kriegsmarine and its Austro-Hungarian allies, spread between the North Sea and the Adriatic. The expectation that Fascist Italy would join Hitler in his war for global domination at some point required the maintenance of strong British and French forces in the Mediterranean, where they also kept a wary eye on the Spanish Armada and Imperial Ottoman Navy. The growing threat of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Far East required a strong force to be maintained at Singapore and Hong Kong as a deterrent and, in the event of war with Japan, the only means that the Admiralty considered capable of defeating their enemy was the deployment of the main fleet of the Royal Navy to Singapore.
Against Germany, the Royal Navy had a several key objectives. First and foremost, it had to defend the trade routes between Britain, the Empire and the rest of the world through the organisation of convoys and escorts to counter the anticipated threat of German U-Boats and surface raiders. Secondly, it had to maintain a distant blockade of Germany and its allies, interdict its trade with mines and submarines and starve the enemy of the necessary resources required for a modern industrial world war. Thirdly, it had to defend the coasts and approaches to the British Isles through minefields and aircraft and surface ship patrols. Fourthly, it would need to transport and protect the British Army, Commonwealth and Imperial forces as they deployed to France and the Middle East. Finally, the Royal Navy would have to take the fight directly to the enemy, attacking its ships, ports and dockyards, destroying its merchant shipping and harrying it in every way possible. This last approach was considered as an aggressive, necessary step, given the preponderance of seapower possessed by the British Empire and the lessons of the Great War regarding the efficacy of blockade. The reduced size of Hitler's Kriegsmarine compared to the High Seas Fleet of Kaiser Wilhelm gave the Admiralty a great deal of faith in their ability to defeat it in detail when it could be brought to battle at sea.
Upon the immediate outbreak of war, the Admiralty requisitioned 72 merchant liners for conversion to cruisers and auxiliary carriers based on peacetime. Whilst the majority of such ships were in the former category, eight large fast ships had been selected for conversion to trade protection carriers; the necessary balance between the protection of maritime trade and maximising the number of vessels dedicated to carrying said trade and supply erred more on the side of the Merchant Navy than the RN, given the relative paucity of suitable fast cargo liners. Windsor Castle, Edinburgh Castle, Campania, Cuba, Atlantic, Strathnaver, Lancastria and Gothic were converted in the National Shipyards and the ports of Haven, Cork and Pembroke Dock between November 1939 and September 1940. Their role, with their speeds of between 20 and 25 knots, would be to be attached as convoy protection ships to important routes on the Atlantic, where the U-Boat and surface raider threat was considered the most perilous. They would be equipped with the venerable yet still effective Fairey Shark torpedo bomber and Gloster Gauntlet fighter, with the biplanes proving more suitable for operations on slower ships designed for ocean escort. The conversions followed a generally similar format based on a relatively swift yet efficient conversion, carrying a total of between 20 and 30 aircraft, usually consisting of more Sharks due to their longer range and offensive capacity against submarines.
In September 1939, though, the prospects of a decisive fleet engagement in the immediate future were considered slim. The immediate tasks that confronted the Royal Navy at the start of the war were, the establishment of convoys and the blockade and the establishment of the Grand Fleet, the wartime formation combining the concentrated squadrons present in home waters. The escaped ships of the Polish Navy and the newly arrived units of the Royal Canadian Navy swelled the strength present at Scapa Flow to a decisive level in mid-September, allowing the deployment of four flying squadrons formed around aircraft carriers, battlecruisers and cruisers to sweep the German merchant navy from the seas and hunt down their elusive surface raiders. These initial operations did not meet with any great success in terms of finding and defeating any German warships, but did result in the capture of several German liners on the high seas. SS Potsdam was captured near the Faroes by Force D on September 25th, lead by HMS Renown and HMS Courageous, and SS Columbus was taken by HMS Hood in the West Indies on October 3rd, but the greatest prize was taken by Force A, lead by HMS Hero and HMS Fearless, which was the capture of the 68,000t SS Bremen in the Norwegian Sea on December 10th, 1939. All three would be converted into auxiliary aircraft carriers, named Hibernia, Caledonia and Rhodesia respectively. They would carry decidedly more aircraft than the British merchant aircraft carrier conversions, deploying 32, 46 and 84 aircraft respectively. Their conversion and refitting for active service was not completed until late August 1940, upon which time they were employed on the North Atlantic convoys in the case of Hibernia and Caledonia, whilst Rhodesia was mainly deployed in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans, until such time as it was assigned to duty as a support and maintenance carrier for the Grand Fleet when it moved east to Singapore.
The pursuit of German surface raiders and anti-submarine patrols had rather less initial success in September and October, as the three Kriegsmarine pocket battleships and the two auxiliary cruisers Ruprecht and Albrecht caused considerable consternation amongst the Allied and neutral shipping in the North Atlantic. These five ships, along with the limited numbers of long range U-Boats that could reach the trade routes, drew the attentions of over one hundred and fifty British and French men of war, either escorting convoys or engaging in long patrols of the vast oceans. The role of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers in this process was quite invaluable, as three of the Hawkins class light carriers, Fearless, Furious and Arion were assigned to the various hunting squadrons spread out across the Atlantic, extending their patrol range and vision considerably. Hawkins operated in the West Indies out of Port Royal, Raleigh from Bermuda and Effingham from Freetown, whilst Furious and Fearless were assigned to North Atlantic Command at Gibraltar and Arion to South Atlantic Command at Caerleon in Prydain. The first major success came just two days after the capture of SS Bremen at the Battle of the River Plate, where the German pocket battlehip Admiral Graf Spee was caught and badly damaged by HMS Exeter, HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles, before being sunk the next day by the combined gunfire of the Royal Navy cruisers and the aircraft of the newly arrived Arion, which delivered the coup de grace with a strike by her Fairey Swordfish torpedo bombers. The victory at the River Plate was followed by the sinking of the Deutschland by HMS Hood northwest of the Azure Islands on December 23rd. It was a testament to the growing importance of the aircraft carrier that the Mighty Hood was able to catch the elusive German raider thanks to the wide-ranging aerial reconnaissance supplied by Raleigh and Hawkins; Hitler's reaction to the Christmas news was said to be particularly expressive, even by his own standards.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 23, 2020 14:32:06 GMT
Here is a little preview of the history of British aircraft carriers in the Second World War. This is the first ~10% to give a little taste: At the outbreak of the Second World War on September 1st 1939, the Royal Navy was the largest and most powerful fleet in the world, deploying over 700 vessels and possessed of a vast global network of fortified bases to support its operations. It's major warships consisted of 32 battleships, 10 battlecruisers, 12 fleet and 4 light aircraft carriers, 102 cruisers, 280 destroyers, 121 escorts, 66 sloops and corvettes and 86 submarines, with its most substantial forces concentrated in the British Isles and the Mediterranean. It faced a complex threat in the form of the growing German Kriegsmarine and its Austro-Hungarian allies, spread between the North Sea and the Adriatic. The expectation that Fascist Italy would join Hitler in his war for global domination at some point required the maintenance of strong British and French forces in the Mediterranean, where they also kept a wary eye on the Spanish Armada and Imperial Ottoman Navy. The growing threat of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Far East required a strong force to be maintained at Singapore and Hong Kong as a deterrent and, in the event of war with Japan, the only means that the Admiralty considered capable of defeating their enemy was the deployment of the main fleet of the Royal Navy to Singapore. Nice preview of what is coming simon darkshade, i assume by the end of the Second World War the Royal Navy will become the second largest carrier operator in the Darkearth verse.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 23, 2020 14:40:36 GMT
The USN will be bigger than them, yes, but the Royal Navy is quite large. There are a few little developments detailed in the 1939 section that will give some hints.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 24, 2020 3:31:47 GMT
The major differences from that snippet are:
- 12 fleet carriers compared to 7 in service, allowing for the older vessels to cover trade protection and the newer ships to be grouped at home and in the Mediterranean. - Prewar plans for conversion of auxiliary carriers occur. In conjunction with the captured German ships, they provide a boost in late 1940/early 1941 just as the escort carriers are entering production. - Two German pocket battleships are sunk in 1939 rather than one, with some flow on effects. - Aircraft delivering the final blow at the Battle of the River Plate. - Indications that the RN is planning for an early aggressive blow at the Germans.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 9:22:10 GMT
- Indications that the RN is planning for an early aggressive blow at the Germans. I do hoop its a RN carrier attack against, Wilhelmshaven.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 24, 2020 10:29:06 GMT
You are quite correct.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 10:35:24 GMT
Nice. Well i was thinking about Kiel before picking Wilhelmshaven, as attacking Kiel means British aircraft have to fly over German territory which makes them targets for German fighters and Flak, also i assume Kiel is the main German submarine base.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 24, 2020 11:01:37 GMT
Here is a little preview of the history of British aircraft carriers in the Second World War. This is the first ~10% to give a little taste: At the outbreak of the Second World War on September 1st 1939, the Royal Navy was the largest and most powerful fleet in the world, deploying over 700 vessels and possessed of a vast global network of fortified bases to support its operations. It's major warships consisted of 32 battleships, 10 battlecruisers, 12 fleet and 4 light aircraft carriers, 102 cruisers, 280 destroyers, 121 escorts, 66 sloops and corvettes and 86 submarines, with its most substantial forces concentrated in the British Isles and the Mediterranean. It faced a complex threat in the form of the growing German Kriegsmarine and its Austro-Hungarian allies, spread between the North Sea and the Adriatic. The expectation that Fascist Italy would join Hitler in his war for global domination at some point required the maintenance of strong British and French forces in the Mediterranean, where they also kept a wary eye on the Spanish Armada and Imperial Ottoman Navy. The growing threat of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Far East required a strong force to be maintained at Singapore and Hong Kong as a deterrent and, in the event of war with Japan, the only means that the Admiralty considered capable of defeating their enemy was the deployment of the main fleet of the Royal Navy to Singapore. Against Germany, the Royal Navy had a several key objectives. First and foremost, it had to defend the trade routes between Britain, the Empire and the rest of the world through the organisation of convoys and escorts to counter the anticipated threat of German U-Boats and surface raiders. Secondly, it had to maintain a distant blockade of Germany and its allies, interdict its trade with mines and submarines and starve the enemy of the necessary resources required for a modern industrial world war. Thirdly, it had to defend the coasts and approaches to the British Isles through minefields and aircraft and surface ship patrols. Fourthly, it would need to transport and protect the British Army, Commonwealth and Imperial forces as they deployed to France and the Middle East. Finally, the Royal Navy would have to take the fight directly to the enemy, attacking its ships, ports and dockyards, destroying its merchant shipping and harrying it in every way possible. This last approach was considered as an aggressive, necessary step, given the preponderance of seapower possessed by the British Empire and the lessons of the Great War regarding the efficacy of blockade. The reduced size of Hitler's Kriegsmarine compared to the High Seas Fleet of Kaiser Wilhelm gave the Admiralty a great deal of faith in their ability to defeat it in detail when it could be brought to battle at sea. Upon the immediate outbreak of war, the Admiralty requisitioned 72 merchant liners for conversion to cruisers and auxiliary carriers based on peacetime. Whilst the majority of such ships were in the former category, eight large fast ships had been selected for conversion to trade protection carriers; the necessary balance between the protection of maritime trade and maximising the number of vessels dedicated to carrying said trade and supply erred more on the side of the Merchant Navy than the RN, given the relative paucity of suitable fast cargo liners. Windsor Castle, Edinburgh Castle, Campania, Cuba, Atlantic, Strathnaver, Lancastria and Gothic were converted in the National Shipyards and the ports of Haven, Cork and Pembroke Dock between November 1939 and September 1940. Their role, with their speeds of between 20 and 25 knots, would be to be attached as convoy protection ships to important routes on the Atlantic, where the U-Boat and surface raider threat was considered the most perilous. They would be equipped with the venerable yet still effective Fairey Shark torpedo bomber and Gloster Gauntlet fighter, with the biplanes proving more suitable for operations on slower ships designed for ocean escort. The conversions followed a generally similar format based on a relatively swift yet efficient conversion, carrying a total of between 20 and 30 aircraft, usually consisting of more Sharks due to their longer range and offensive capacity against submarines. In September 1939, though, the prospects of a decisive fleet engagement in the immediate future were considered slim. The immediate tasks that confronted the Royal Navy at the start of the war were, the establishment of convoys and the blockade and the establishment of the Grand Fleet, the wartime formation combining the concentrated squadrons present in home waters. The escaped ships of the Polish Navy and the newly arrived units of the Royal Canadian Navy swelled the strength present at Scapa Flow to a decisive level in mid-September, allowing the deployment of four flying squadrons formed around aircraft carriers, battlecruisers and cruisers to sweep the German merchant navy from the seas and hunt down their elusive surface raiders. These initial operations did not meet with any great success in terms of finding and defeating any German warships, but did result in the capture of several German liners on the high seas. SS Potsdam was captured near the Faroes by Force D on September 25th, lead by HMS Renown and HMS Courageous, and SS Columbus was taken by HMS Hood in the West Indies on October 3rd, but the greatest prize was taken by Force A, lead by HMS Hero and HMS Fearless, which was the capture of the 68,000t SS Bremen in the Norwegian Sea on December 10th, 1939. All three would be converted into auxiliary aircraft carriers, named Hibernia, Caledonia and Rhodesia respectively. They would carry decidedly more aircraft than the British merchant aircraft carrier conversions, deploying 32, 46 and 84 aircraft respectively. Their conversion and refitting for active service was not completed until late August 1940, upon which time they were employed on the North Atlantic convoys in the case of Hibernia and Caledonia, whilst Rhodesia was mainly deployed in the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans, until such time as it was assigned to duty as a support and maintenance carrier for the Grand Fleet when it moved east to Singapore. The pursuit of German surface raiders and anti-submarine patrols had rather less initial success in September and October, as the three Kriegsmarine pocket battleships and the two auxiliary cruisers Ruprecht and Albrecht caused considerable consternation amongst the Allied and neutral shipping in the North Atlantic. These five ships, along with the limited numbers of long range U-Boats that could reach the trade routes, drew the attentions of over one hundred and fifty British and French men of war, either escorting convoys or engaging in long patrols of the vast oceans. The role of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers in this process was quite invaluable, as three of the Hawkins class light carriers, Fearless, Furious and Arion were assigned to the various hunting squadrons spread out across the Atlantic, extending their patrol range and vision considerably. Hawkins operated in the West Indies out of Port Royal, Raleigh from Bermuda and Effingham from Freetown, whilst Furious and Fearless were assigned to North Atlantic Command at Gibraltar and Arion to South Atlantic Command at Caerleon in Prydain. The first major success came just two days after the capture of SS Bremen at the Battle of the River Plate, where the German pocket battlehip Admiral Graf Spee was caught and badly damaged by HMS Exeter, HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles, before being sunk the next day by the combined gunfire of the Royal Navy cruisers and the aircraft of the newly arrived Arion, which delivered the coup de grace with a strike by her Fairey Swordfish torpedo bombers. The victory at the River Plate was followed by the sinking of the Deutschland by HMS Hood northwest of the Azure Islands on December 23rd. It was a testament to the growing importance of the aircraft carrier that the Mighty Hood was able to catch the elusive German raider thanks to the wide-ranging aerial reconnaissance supplied by Raleigh and Hawkins; Hitler's reaction to the Christmas news was said to be particularly expressive, even by his own standards.
Very interesting, thanks. That RN is a bit light on destroyers given the number of demands on then, protecting both fleet units and convoys. However the greater use of CVs and converted escort carriers definitely make for a quicker coverage of important areas to a/c albeit there is a lot more sea to cover.
I hadn't realised that the Ottoman empire survived WWI. How big is it in 1939 please? Does it still have most of its Arabic lands or is it still largely limited to Anatolia?
Taking out two PBS earlier is definitely good. The key issue in the longer term of course will be the U boats in the Atlantic and what happens in the Far East. Although with Italians, Austrians and Ottomans its going to be very busy in the Med come to think of it. Also when Barbarossa starts off that suggests a 3rd front for the Soviets in the Caucaus region which could be very dangerous for them if the Axis can deny them Baku's oil, even if they can't take it themselves. Hopefully with a larger and faster fleet the RN can remove a lot of the opponents in the Med before they have to head east.
Steve
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Feb 24, 2020 14:24:35 GMT
Lordroel,
The idea of striking Wilhelmshaven is to minimise the warning time and flight over land as you rightly point out.
Steve On destroyers: A.) The Royal Navy has 280 destroyers (160 Standards, 24 Tribals and 96 V/Ws) B.) Plus the 42 in service with the various Commonwealth navies (16 RCN, 8 RAN, 6 RSAN, 4 RNZN, 4 RNAN, 4 RIN) C.) There are also 72 ships under construction (8 Tribals, 64 Standards) and a further 8 Commonwealth destroyers D.) 84 R/S class destroyers of the Great War are being returned to service from reserve
1930s British Naval Construction
1930: 8 Leander class CL; 16 C class DD; 8 Oberon class SS 1931: 4 Town class CL; 16 D class DD; 4 Nautilus class SS, 8 S class SS 1932: 6 Town class CL; 16 E class DD; 12 S class SS 1933: 2 Ark Royal class CV, 6 Town class CL; 16 F class DD; 12 S class SS 1934: 2 Ark Royal class CV, 6 KGV class BB; 6 Town class CL; 8 Tribals; 16 G class DD; 16 Grimsby SL; 16 S class SS 1935: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Lion class BB; 6 Town class CL; 8 Tribals, 16 H class DD; 16 Kingfisher SL; 9 River class FF; 12 Skylark class DE; 16 S class SS 1936: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Vanguard class BB; 4 Hero class CA; 4 Crown Colony class CL; 4 Dido class CLAA; 8 Tribals; 16 I class DD; 12 Dance class DE; 9 River class FF; 12 Black Swan SL; 16 T class SS 1937: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Superb class BB; 2 Leopard class PBB; 4 Hero class CA; 6 Crown Colony class CL; 6 Dido class CLAA; 8 Tribals; 16 J class DD; 12 Hunt class DE; 12 River class FF; 12 Black Swan SL; 24 T class SS 1938: 4 Illustrious class CV; 2 Leopard class PBB; 4 Orion class BC; 4 Theseus class CVL; 6 Crown Colony class CL; 6 Dido class CLAA; 32 K/L class DD; 12 Hunt class DE; 12 River class FF; 18 Black Swan SL; 16 Flower class CR; 24 T class SS 1939: 4 Theseus class CVL, 4 Roberts class MN; 8 Tiger class CA; 4 Crown Colony class CL; 8 Defiance CLAA; 32 M/N class DD, 24 Hunt class DE; 24 River class FF; 24 Black Swan SL; 32 Flower class CR; 24 U class SS
On the Turks:
They survive the Great War as a rump Anatolian state with a great deal of revanchism.
General Points: - 2 PBB down and 2 to go, but the Germans also have some handy battlecruisers which present a threat until a certain point. - The U-Boat battle in the Atlantic will be utterly vital. - In the Far East, war clouds are clearly gathering and have been since 1938/1939. The Admiralty knows that it will have to send the fleet east at some stage, which drives its construction and strategy. Knocking out the low hanging fruit is their first, aggressive objective. Austria can be contained by geography, but the Turks and Spanish present threats to the key flanks of the Mediterranean. They need to be dealt with first and then the Italian threat either contained or eliminated. The role of the French is key to this calculation. - Some strategists suggest that the British Empire would only have a maximum of two years/24 months to deal with their European naval threats before having to go east. - The Turkish threat to Soviet oil isn't seen as an entirely bad thing while the Soviets are still potential enemies, but to those observers who see that Britain and France will need to get the involvement of the Soviet Union and United States in any potential war, it is a problem.
Simon
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 24, 2020 14:27:25 GMT
They survive the Great War as a rump Anatolian state with a great deal of revanchism. Simon So instead of a Wiemar-Germany we have Anatolian-Turkey bent on reclaiming its lost territory.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 24, 2020 14:36:23 GMT
Lordroel, The idea of striking Wilhelmshaven is to minimise the warning time and flight over land as you rightly point out. Steve On destroyers: A.) The Royal Navy has 280 destroyers (160 Standards, 24 Tribals and 96 V/Ws) B.) Plus the 42 in service with the various Commonwealth navies (16 RCN, 8 RAN, 6 RSAN, 4 RNZN, 4 RNAN, 4 RIN) C.) There are also 72 ships under construction (8 Tribals, 64 Standards) and a further 8 Commonwealth destroyers D.) 84 R/S class destroyers of the Great War are being returned to service from reserve 1930s British Naval Construction 1930: 8 Leander class CL; 16 C class DD; 8 Oberon class SS 1931: 4 Town class CL; 16 D class DD; 4 Nautilus class SS, 8 S class SS 1932: 6 Town class CL; 16 E class DD; 12 S class SS 1933: 2 Ark Royal class CV, 6 Town class CL; 16 F class DD; 12 S class SS 1934: 2 Ark Royal class CV, 6 KGV class BB; 6 Town class CL; 8 Tribals; 16 G class DD; 16 Grimsby SL; 16 S class SS 1935: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Lion class BB; 6 Town class CL; 8 Tribals, 16 H class DD; 16 Kingfisher SL; 9 River class FF; 12 Skylark class DE; 16 S class SS 1936: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Vanguard class BB; 4 Hero class CA; 4 Crown Colony class CL; 4 Dido class CLAA; 8 Tribals; 16 I class DD; 12 Dance class DE; 9 River class FF; 12 Black Swan SL; 16 T class SS 1937: 4 Illustrious class CV, 6 Superb class BB; 2 Leopard class PBB; 4 Hero class CA; 6 Crown Colony class CL; 6 Dido class CLAA; 8 Tribals; 16 J class DD; 12 Hunt class DE; 12 River class FF; 12 Black Swan SL; 24 T class SS 1938: 4 Illustrious class CV; 2 Leopard class PBB; 4 Orion class BC; 4 Theseus class CVL; 6 Crown Colony class CL; 6 Dido class CLAA; 32 K/L class DD; 12 Hunt class DE; 12 River class FF; 18 Black Swan SL; 16 Flower class CR; 24 T class SS 1939: 4 Theseus class CVL, 4 Roberts class MN; 8 Tiger class CA; 4 Crown Colony class CL; 8 Defiance CLAA; 32 M/N class DD, 24 Hunt class DE; 24 River class FF; 24 Black Swan SL; 32 Flower class CR; 24 U class SS On the Turks: They survive the Great War as a rump Anatolian state with a great deal of revanchism. General Points: - 2 PBB down and 2 to go, but the Germans also have some handy battlecruisers which present a threat until a certain point. - The U-Boat battle in the Atlantic will be utterly vital. - In the Far East, war clouds are clearly gathering and have been since 1938/1939. The Admiralty knows that it will have to send the fleet east at some stage, which drives its construction and strategy. Knocking out the low hanging fruit is their first, aggressive objective. Austria can be contained by geography, but the Turks and Spanish present threats to the key flanks of the Mediterranean. They need to be dealt with first and then the Italian threat either contained or eliminated. The role of the French is key to this calculation. - Some strategists suggest that the British Empire would only have a maximum of two years/24 months to deal with their European naval threats before having to go east. - The Turkish threat to Soviet oil isn't seen as an entirely bad thing while the Soviets are still potential enemies, but to those observers who see that Britain and France will need to get the involvement of the Soviet Union and United States in any potential war, it is a problem. Simon
OK thanks for expanding on that. Assuming that's are dates laid down but 4 Arks and 12 Illustrious CVs are definitely used. Sounds like Spain is also in the Axis here, which makes it even more difficult with the western Med closed and very likely Gib lost. Although the Canaries would make a useful RN/RAF base and we have the Azures here.
Steve
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