lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 19, 2020 15:31:11 GMT
So doe the Ottomans have a naval base in the Aegean Sea ore the Mediterranean Sea where the British can launch a Tarranto style attack on.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 19, 2020 15:48:37 GMT
They don't have one on the Aegean Sea, but they just got their two main Mediterranean ports hammered by the Fleet Air Arm.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 19, 2020 15:52:26 GMT
They don't have one on the Aegean Sea, but they just got their two main Mediterranean ports hammered by the Fleet Air Arm. And Cyprus. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 19, 2020 16:37:45 GMT
The Spanish, after seeing what happened to the Italians and Turks, are not going to sit and wait to be Copenhagened, but launch a daring operation to engage and defeat the Royal Navy Atlantic Fleet in February 1941, whilst they have a nominal numerial advantage over them. The danger that the Spaniards face is the French coming out from Mers El Kebir and Algiers to hit them from the flank, which requires a diversion...
Once the Spanish threat is resolved, the next occurence is the Battle of Cape Matapan, which seals matters in the Central Mediterranean and allows the process of the big move to Singapore to begin.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 19, 2020 16:40:05 GMT
They don't have one on the Aegean Sea, but they just got their two main Mediterranean ports hammered by the Fleet Air Arm. And Cyprus. Cyprus would have the capacity to be used as an offensive base against the Turks at a later stage, when airfields can be built and more aircraft deployed to the Middle East, particularly those acquired from the USA under Cash and Carry, the Aircraft for Bases Agreement and, later on, Lend Lease. As of early 1941, Cyprus is useful as a defensive rather than an offensive asset. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 19, 2020 16:40:12 GMT
The Spanish, after seeing what happened to the Italians and Turks, are not going to sit and wait to be Copenhagened, but launch a daring operation to engage and defeat the Royal Navy Atlantic Fleet in February 1941, whilst they have a nominal numerial advantage over them. The danger that the Spaniards face is the French coming out from Mers El Kebir and Algiers to hit them from the flank, which requires a diversion... Once the Spanish threat is resolved, the next occurence is the Battle of Cape Matapan, which seals matters in the Central Mediterranean and allows the process of the big move to Singapore to begin. The Spanish must now that they will be heavily outnumbered. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 19, 2020 16:41:54 GMT
"In the Western Mediterranean, the sole threat to the naval dominance of Britain and Free France came in the form of the Spanish Armada, which was concentrated in the Mediterranean. Spain had been embroiled in its own front of the wider conflict in the Spanish-Portuguese War since August 25th 1940, when 350,000 Spanish troops poured across the border and were stopped dead on the Braganca Line in the north, whilst making substantial advances in the south. Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill declared that the British Empire would honour Portugal's desperate plea for assistance, even as a German invasion of Britain seemed likely, and dispatched an expeditionary army to Portugal and southern Spain, which relieved the immediate pressure on the Portuguese and opened up the Andalusian Front. This was followed by Italian forces crossing the Pyrenees after Mussolini had declared that he would stand as the champion of Fascism in the Mediterranean, although the deepening winter made decisive advances by either side difficult. Free French and Polish troops reinforced the Allied bridgehead in the south, securing a deep perimeter inland from the vital base at Gibraltar supported by aircraft flying in from aerodromes in Morocco. The large Spanish naval base of Cadiz had been evacuated in the final days before British intervention and it was often felt that an opportunity was missed to engage and sink the Spanish squadron as it steamed through the Straits of Gibraltar on September 6th. Now, in 1941, the Armada was concentrated at the ports of Cartagena and Valencia, where 8 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 2 aircraft carriers, 13 cruisers, 25 destroyers, 19 torpedo boats and 11 submarines were poised within striking distance of French North Africa and the Allied lifeline through the Mediterranean. The experiences of the Italian and Turkish fleets at the hands of British carrier aircraft was a fresh and terrible one for the Spanish admiralty and there was a determination not to simply sit back and await destruction in darkness, but to strike out and engage the Royal Navy's Atlantic Fleet from a position of strength. At the end of January 1941, the latter, based at Tangiers and Gibraltar, consisted of the aircraft carriers Argus, Indomitable, Furious and Hermes, the battleships King George V, Duke of York, Black Prince, Collingwood, St. Vincent and the battlecruiser Hood, 10 cruisers and 28 destroyers; the French battlecruisers Dunkerque and Strasbourg, 2 cruisers and 8 destroyers were attached directly to the Royal Navy squadron, with the main Marine Royale fleet of 12 battleships and 3 carriers back at Mers El Kebir and Algiers to cover any Regia Marina sortie."
They have a small edge in some respects, but will be relying on land-based air cover to counteract the RN edge in carriers.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2020 9:47:05 GMT
"In the Western Mediterranean, the sole threat to the naval dominance of Britain and Free France came in the form of the Spanish Armada, which was concentrated in the Mediterranean. Spain had been embroiled in its own front of the wider conflict in the Spanish-Portuguese War since August 25th 1940, when 350,000 Spanish troops poured across the border and were stopped dead on the Braganca Line in the north, whilst making substantial advances in the south. Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill declared that the British Empire would honour Portugal's desperate plea for assistance, even as a German invasion of Britain seemed likely, and dispatched an expeditionary army to Portugal and southern Spain, which relieved the immediate pressure on the Portuguese and opened up the Andalusian Front. This was followed by Italian forces crossing the Pyrenees after Mussolini had declared that he would stand as the champion of Fascism in the Mediterranean, although the deepening winter made decisive advances by either side difficult. Free French and Polish troops reinforced the Allied bridgehead in the south, securing a deep perimeter inland from the vital base at Gibraltar supported by aircraft flying in from aerodromes in Morocco. The large Spanish naval base of Cadiz had been evacuated in the final days before British intervention and it was often felt that an opportunity was missed to engage and sink the Spanish squadron as it steamed through the Straits of Gibraltar on September 6th. Now, in 1941, the Armada was concentrated at the ports of Cartagena and Valencia, where 8 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 2 aircraft carriers, 13 cruisers, 25 destroyers, 19 torpedo boats and 11 submarines were poised within striking distance of French North Africa and the Allied lifeline through the Mediterranean. The experiences of the Italian and Turkish fleets at the hands of British carrier aircraft was a fresh and terrible one for the Spanish admiralty and there was a determination not to simply sit back and await destruction in darkness, but to strike out and engage the Royal Navy's Atlantic Fleet from a position of strength. At the end of January 1941, the latter, based at Tangiers and Gibraltar, consisted of the aircraft carriers Argus, Indomitable, Furious and Hermes, the battleships King George V, Duke of York, Black Prince, Collingwood, St. Vincent and the battlecruiser Hood, 10 cruisers and 28 destroyers; the French battlecruisers Dunkerque and Strasbourg, 2 cruisers and 8 destroyers were attached directly to the Royal Navy squadron, with the main Marine Royale fleet of 12 battleships and 3 carriers back at Mers El Kebir and Algiers to cover any Regia Marina sortie." They have a small edge in some respects, but will be relying on land-based air cover to counteract the RN edge in carriers.
They will have a small edge in terms of numbers, except in CV so they will need that land based air support, although it also restricts them somewhat as coordination with the fleet will be awkward.
I would expect the RN to have a qualitative edge. For one thing given the much smaller Spanish economy I would expect their capital ships to be smaller and less modern, for instance do they have radar for either air protection or gunnery. Also I doubt they would have the same level of practical experience as the Andrew, which has been operating around the world and seen combat for the best part of a year before Spain entered the conflict.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2020 10:29:40 GMT
Steve,
The Spanish have 4 modern battleships to 3, but their battlecruisers are at a disadvantage compared to Hood, Dunkerque and Strasbourg; Hood effectively counts as a battleship in real terms. The Spanish ships do not have radar and do lack in practical experience.
Coordination with land based air cover will have some degree of difficulty; fighter cover is easier than offensive cover.
Theirs is something of a difficult task, as it would be for any comparable fleet taking on the largest navy in the world at the time; they are the equivalent of 50% of the Regia Marina from @.
Simon
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2020 10:41:25 GMT
Steve, The Spanish have 4 modern battleships to 3, but their battlecruisers are at a disadvantage compared to Hood, Dunkerque and Strasbourg; Hood effectively counts as a battleship in real terms. The Spanish ships do not have radar and do lack in practical experience. Coordination with land based air cover will have some degree of difficulty; fighter cover is easier than offensive cover. Theirs is something of a difficult task, as it would be for any comparable fleet taking on the largest navy in the world at the time; they are the equivalent of 50% of the Regia Marina from @. Simon
Simon
They may be as modern but are they as large and powerful? I would have thought not as Spain is unlikely to have the same experience and infrastructure for constructing and operating such large ships as the UK has. OTL the only dreadnoughts the Spanish built were the three Espana class, with assistance from Britain and France, which were the smallest dreadnoughts built by any country. Here I would expects ships to be much larger but probably still overall dwarfed by the RN ones, especially the modern units. Unless their got significant assistance from another major power that has basically built them for Spain. That's what I'm thinking anyway simply on account of economic constraints.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2020 12:54:43 GMT
Steve,
They aren't quite as large as the RN ships, although they carry a broadly similar calibre of main armament; the RN ships are bigger by ~25,000t. Spain isn't on the level of France or Britain, but is broadly equivalent to Italy in naval capacity and industrialisation. They did not have quite the same 19th century nadir, nor have they had a particularly bad 20th century until the Fascist coup of 1938. Spain up until the late 1930s was supported and encouraged by both Britain and France, both in efforts to counterbalance Italy and also to counterbalance each other.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2020 18:39:23 GMT
On the night of February 4th 1941, 87 Spanish Air Force Savoia-Marchetti SM.82s bombed Mers El Kebir, inflicting minor damage but substantive disruption, providing cover for the laying of multiple minefields by Spanish submarines in the approaches to the port. The Spanish battlefleet sortied early on the next morning, proceeding along the coast under heavy fighter cover from inland airbases, being detected by the submarine HMS Unseen at 1034 hours. Admiral Sir James Somerville took his fleet to sea out from Gibraltar, veering down towards the Moroccan coast to maximise its distance from the Spanish airfields around Granada. The first stage of the action took place south of Alboran Island, as 65 Spanish bombers escorted by 72 Hispano HA-1109s struck at the British fleet in conjunction with a carrier strike by 38 Stukas and 40 Arado torpedo bombers, detected by Hood's powerful RDF over 125nm away. They were met 20 miles north of the fleet by a strong CAP of 52 Supermarine Eagles and 50 Hawker Fireflies from the carriers and a land-based force of 48 Royal Service Aeronautique Dewoitine D.520s and 36 RAF Hawker Hurricanes flying from Oran and Tangiers. The following aerial melee was one of the most vicious in the Battle of the Mediterranean to date, with the performance advantages of the Fleet Air Arm fighters neutralised by the confused close-quarter dogfights. 38 Spanish SM.82s and 36 carrier aircraft managed to get through the Allied fighter screen, with 42 of the Hispano fighters being shot down in exchange for 12 Eagles, 15 Fireflies, 13 D.520s and 10 Hurricanes, before being hit by a further wave of 24 Eagles as they approached the British fleet, losing a further 10 carrier planes and 11 SM.82s. The remaining Spanish aircraft pushed home their attack on the Atlantic Fleet, suffering so greatly from the RDF-guided gunfire of the new anti-aircraft cruisers Dido and Astraea and the three modern super battleships that only 12 SM.82s and 14 Stukas and Arados managed to strike the RN vessels. Collingwood was hit by two torpedoes, Black Prince by three bombs and St. Vincent by a single bomb which destroyed one of its 4.7" secondary battery turrets, whilst the light cruiser Southampton was hit by a torpedo and had to retire back on Gibraltar and two destroyers were crippled. Crucially, none of the British carriers were damaged, having been held back closer to the North African shore.
Somerville now launched his own strike, launching 236 aircraft (85 Swordfish, 75 Buccaneers, 36 Eagles and 40 Fireflies) at the advancing Spanish fleet, whilst leading his own eight capital ships towards them at 30 knots. The British aircraft were intercepted by 56 HA-1109s and 54 Bf-109s from the Spanish carriers, which shot down 10 Eagles and 12 Fireflies in addition to 15 Swordfish and 14 Buccaneers in exchange for the loss of 52 Spanish fighters and largely breaking up the cohesion of the air strike. Nevertheless, enough British aircraft were able to get through to the Spanish fleet to inflict serious damage, with the carriers Hernando Cortez and Francisco Pizarro both hit by a pair of torpedoes, the battlecruisers Santo Domingo and San Carlos struck by three and four bombs respectively and set afire, the battleship Jaime I hit by three torpedoes and two bombs and the cruiser Canarias destroyed by a direct bomb strike to its main magazine. The sheer volume of anti-aircraft fire coming from the four modern Spanish battleships prevented the British aircraft from inflicting any decisive damage on them, even if much of it was ineffective in terms of shooting down enemy planes.
The subsequent surface action began at 1732 hours, as the British battleline opened fire at a range of 64,000 yards, with their 20" and 24" guns directed by powerful magically enhanced fire control systems, well outside of the accurate range of the Spanish ships. In the opening minutes of the engagement, St. Vincent scored seven hits from twelve salvos on the old Santiago, knocking out two turrets and destroying its bridge, Collingwood hit Lepanto five times, damaging her steering gear and slowing her to 18 knots and Hood hit Isabel la Católica ten times, penetrating her aft deck on the last shot and exploding her aft magazine, causing a catastrophic explosion that destroyed the ship. King George V hit Principe de Asturias on her sixth salvo and scored nine hits, blowing off her bow and jamming her A turret; Prince of Wales hit España with her eighth salvo, knocking out her X turret and penetrating her armour belt in two locations, starting serious fires, Duke of York hit Emperador Carlos V on her fifth salvo and scored eleven hits, predominantly on her superstructure and secondary armament amidships; and Black Prince hit Santissima Trinidad seven times from ten salvos, reducing her speed to 24 knots and starting a huge fire on her aft superstructure and aircraft hanger. The Spanish battlefleet seemed in peril of destruction even as they began to bring the British ships under fire and began to break off the battle at the direction of Admiral Don Juan Sanchez de Alvarez, who himself had been mortally wounded by a shell splinter aboard his flagship Santissima Trinidad, but even this seemed to be a vain effort as shells continued to rain around them. It was only the intervention of El Campeón Escarlata, the great wyrm Xeldroso, Spain's mightiest dragon, who sacrificed his life to allow the fleet to escape, that enabled the four Principe de Asturias class battleships to break away. Santiago was pounded into a burning wreck in the process and Lepanto blew up under the concentrated fire of King George V and Prince of Wales. Admiral Somerville launched an initial pursuit of the retreating Spanish as night began to fall, but St. Vincent was severely damaged by a daring torpedo attack by Spanish destroyers acting as a desperate rearguard at 1926. Faced with potential damage to his remaining capital ships, he withdrew back to Oran to temporarily refit and repair his ships, but the Spanish minefield outside the French port was to claim the damaged Collingwood, breaking her back and forcing her to be grounded; she would later be considered a total constructive loss.
The Battle of Alboran was a decisive defeat for the Armada Real, losing three battleships to one of the Royal Navy, but the decisive initial role had once again been played by airpower. Spanish coordination of land and sea-based airpower had been less than optimal, but had still succeeded in inflicting heavy losses on the carrier planes of the Royal Navy, demonstrating that a determined attack could break through their defences. It would lead to further critical thinking and debate by the Fleet Air Arm on the optimal formations and tactics for large carrier engagements, whilst some criticised Somerville for his choices before and during the battle. Ultimately, the main impact of the battle would be both strategic and political. The Spanish Navy would limp back to port and subsequently relocate its capital ships to Barcelona and Valencia for repair; it would never be risked at sea again for the remainder of the war. The sheer scale of the defeat and its psychological impact significantly damaged the image of the Fascist regime as it slowly became public knowledge over the coming months and played a significant role in providing the impetus for the Royalist counter-coup of April that would transform the Iberian campaign.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2020 18:45:51 GMT
On the night of February 4th 1941, 87 Spanish Air Force Savoia-Marchetti SM.82s bombed Mers El Kebir, inflicting minor damage but substantive disruption, providing cover for the laying of multiple minefields by Spanish submarines in the approaches to the port. The Spanish battlefleet sortied early on the next morning, proceeding along the coast under heavy fighter cover from inland airbases, being detected by the submarine HMS Unseen at 1034 hours. Admiral Sir James Somerville took his fleet to sea out from Gibraltar, veering down towards the Moroccan coast to maximise its distance from the Spanish airfields around Granada. The first stage of the action took place south of Alboran Island, as 65 Spanish bombers escorted by 72 Hispano HA-1109s struck at the British fleet in conjunction with a carrier strike by 38 Stukas and 40 Arado torpedo bombers, detected by Hood's powerful RDF over 125nm away. They were met 20 miles north of the fleet by a strong CAP of 52 Supermarine Eagles and 50 Hawker Fireflies from the carriers and a land-based force of 48 Royal Service Aeronautique Dewoitine D.520s and 36 RAF Hawker Hurricanes flying from Oran and Tangiers. The following aerial melee was one of the most vicious in the Battle of the Mediterranean to date, with the performance advantages of the Fleet Air Arm fighters neutralised by the confused close-quarter dogfights. 38 Spanish SM.82s and 36 carrier aircraft managed to get through the Allied fighter screen, with 42 of the Hispano fighters being shot down in exchange for 12 Eagles, 15 Fireflies, 13 D.520s and 10 Hurricanes, before being hit by a further wave of 24 Eagles as they approached the British fleet, losing a further 10 carrier planes and 11 SM.82s. The remaining Spanish aircraft pushed home their attack on the Atlantic Fleet, suffering so greatly from the RDF-guided gunfire of the new anti-aircraft cruisers Dido and Astraea and the three modern super battleships that only 12 SM.82s and 14 Stukas and Arados managed to strike the RN vessels. Collingwood was hit by two torpedoes, Black Prince by three bombs and St. Vincent by a single bomb which destroyed one of its 4.7" secondary battery turrets, whilst the light cruiser Southampton was hit by a torpedo and had to retire back on Gibraltar and two destroyers were crippled. Crucially, none of the British carriers were damaged, having been held back closer to the North African shore. Somerville now launched his own strike, launching 236 aircraft (85 Swordfish, 75 Buccaneers, 36 Eagles and 40 Fireflies) at the advancing Spanish fleet, whilst leading his own eight capital ships towards them at 30 knots. The British aircraft were intercepted by 56 HA-1109s and 54 Bf-109s from the Spanish carriers, which shot down 10 Eagles and 12 Fireflies in addition to 15 Swordfish and 14 Buccaneers in exchange for the loss of 52 Spanish fighters and largely breaking up the cohesion of the air strike. Nevertheless, enough British aircraft were able to get through to the Spanish fleet to inflict serious damage, with the carriers Hernando Cortez and Francisco Pizarro both hit by a pair of torpedoes, the battlecruisers Santo Domingo and San Carlos struck by three and four bombs respectively and set afire, the battleship Jaime I hit by three torpedoes and two bombs and the cruiser Canarias destroyed by a direct bomb strike to its main magazine. The sheer volume of anti-aircraft fire coming from the four modern Spanish battleships prevented the British aircraft from inflicting any decisive damage on them, even if much of it was ineffective in terms of shooting down enemy planes. The subsequent surface action began at 1732 hours, as the British battleline opened fire at a range of 64,000 yards, with their 20" and 24" guns directed by powerful magically enhanced fire control systems, well outside of the accurate range of the Spanish ships. In the opening minutes of the engagement, St. Vincent scored seven hits from twelve salvos on the old Santiago, knocking out two turrets and destroying its bridge, Collingwood hit Lepanto five times, damaging her steering gear and slowing her to 18 knots and Hood hit Isabel la Católica ten times, penetrating her aft deck on the last shot and exploding her aft magazine, causing a catastrophic explosion that destroyed the ship. King George V hit Principe de Asturias on her sixth salvo and scored nine hits, blowing off her bow and jamming her A turret; Prince of Wales hit España with her eighth salvo, knocking out her X turret and penetrating her armour belt in two locations, starting serious fires, Duke of York hit Emperador Carlos V on her fifth salvo and scored eleven hits, predominantly on her superstructure and secondary armament amidships; and Black Prince hit Santissima Trinidad seven times from ten salvos, reducing her speed to 24 knots and starting a huge fire on her aft superstructure and aircraft hanger. The Spanish battlefleet seemed in peril of destruction even as they began to bring the British ships under fire and began to break off the battle at the direction of Admiral Don Juan Sanchez de Alvarez, who himself had been mortally wounded by a shell splinter aboard his flagship Santissima Trinidad, but even this seemed to be a vain effort as shells continued to rain around them. It was only the intervention of El Campeón Escarlata, the great wyrm Xeldroso, Spain's mightiest dragon, who sacrificed his life to allow the fleet to escape, that enabled the four Principe de Asturias class battleships to break away. Santiago was pounded into a burning wreck in the process and Lepanto blew up under the concentrated fire of King George V and Prince of Wales. Admiral Somerville launched an initial pursuit of the retreating Spanish as night began to fall, but St. Vincent was severely damaged by a daring torpedo attack by Spanish destroyers acting as a desperate rearguard at 1926. Faced with potential damage to his remaining capital ships, he withdrew back to Oran to temporarily refit and repair his ships, but the Spanish minefield outside the French port was to claim the damaged Collingwood, breaking her back and forcing her to be grounded; she would later be considered a total constructive loss. The Battle of Alboran was a decisive defeat for the Armada Real, losing three battleships to one of the Royal Navy, but the decisive initial role had once again been played by airpower. Spanish coordination of land and sea-based airpower had been less than optimal, but had still succeeded in inflicting heavy losses on the carrier planes of the Royal Navy, demonstrating that a determined attack could break through their defences. It would lead to further critical thinking and debate by the Fleet Air Arm on the optimal formations and tactics for large carrier engagements, whilst some criticised Somerville for his choices before and during the battle. Ultimately, the main impact of the battle would be both strategic and political. The Spanish Navy would limp back to port and subsequently relocate its capital ships to Barcelona and Valencia for repair; it would never be risked at sea again for the remainder of the war. The sheer scale of the defeat and its psychological impact significantly damaged the image of the Fascist regime as it slowly became public knowledge over the coming months and played a significant role in providing the impetus for the Royalist counter-coup of April that would transform the Iberian campaign. Nice update as always simon darkshade. Will the Free French in responds to the attack on Mers El Kebir launch a attack against a Spanish port. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2020 18:52:48 GMT
Lordroel, you raise an interesting point. To what extent can the French act independently at this stage and to what extent are they an extension of Britain?
An independent French attack in response makes sense and also provides a further reason for the Spanish withdrawal to Barcelona. It wouldn’t be a carrier attack, as the French carrier fleet is one of their vital assets to retain, but something like the historical Operation Grog could work, albeit targeted on Cartagena rather than Genoa.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2020 19:00:23 GMT
Lordroel, you raise an interesting point. To what extent can the French act independently at this stage and to what extent are they an extension of Britain? An independent French attack in response makes sense and also provides a further reason for the Spanish withdrawal to Barcelona. It wouldn’t be a carrier attack, as the French carrier fleet is one of their vital assets to retain, but something like the historical Operation Grog could work, albeit targeted on Cartagena rather than Genoa. Do the Free French have bombers in North Africa that can hit Spain. |
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