Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 22, 2019 15:21:38 GMT
The Southern United States as of October 1st, 2012—comprised of Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia—gets sent fifty years back to October 1st, 1962. Washington, D.C. remains a downtimer area, leaving JFK & Co. alone and still there. This precise timing gives the uptimers a month to influence the 1962 midterms, not to mention veer US politics off-course from the ISOT onwards. What happens next? Here’s a map of the American South taken from Wikipedia:  Thank you in advance, Zyobot |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 22, 2019 17:27:32 GMT
The Southern United States as of October 1st, 2012—comprised of Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia—gets sent fifty years back to October 1st, 1962. Washington, D.C. remains a downtimer area, leaving JFK & Co. alone and still there. This precise timing gives the uptimers a month to influence the 1962 midterms, not to mention veer US politics off-course from the ISOT onwards. What happens next? Here’s a map of the American South taken from Wikipedia: Thank you in advance, Zyobot If you had waited one ore two more days than there would not be a Lee Harvey Oswald who was until then in Mexico and only came back to OTL United states on October 2nd 1962. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2019 18:49:18 GMT
The Southern United States as of October 1st, 2012—comprised of Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia and West Virginia—gets sent fifty years back to October 1st, 1962. Washington, D.C. remains a downtimer area, leaving JFK & Co. alone and still there. This precise timing gives the uptimers a month to influence the 1962 midterms, not to mention veer US politics off-course from the ISOT onwards. What happens next? Here’s a map of the American South taken from Wikipedia: Thank you in advance, Zyobot If you had waited one ore two more days than there would not be a Lee Harvey Oswald who was until then in Mexico and only came back to OTL United states on October 2nd 1962.
Now that sets up the old question again of can you legally do something about someone who hasn't committed a crime yet?
As well as the mid-terms, although would the new south get a vote as their not on the rolls - at least as far as 1962 US is concerned? Also there's likely to be a few people who now exist in two locations, as a child/youth in US62 and an older man in US19. What would be their legal position on voting and other matters.
Another big issue, as your day-by-day thread highlights, is that the Cuban missile crisis is just about to break out. Hopefully it will be handled as peacefully as OTL but with a far more militarily advanced south and also a conservative one there might be the chance of a more militant approach, since the OTL US did considering air attacks, which they would have more capability to do here. Alternatively how much are the USSR going to freak out on the appearance of a markedly more advanced southern US and also the news their going to lose the cold war. Still think its going to be handled peacefully but there is a danger of something going pear shaped.
One other issue, given the knowledge of the 19 south and how bitter US politics are nowadays, is how much is going to come out about President Kennedy? Such as his drug problems, his relationship with the recently deceased Marilyn Monroe and possibly even some of the conspiracy theories about possibly involvement with her death. True its the mid-terms and 62 US doesn't have the same access to instant news but it could discredit both the Democrats and also make Kennedy standing again in 64 unlikely.
Going to be a hell of a lot of people who's lives will be changed because of what the 2019 south can tell the world about them. Hopefully a lot of problems will be avoided but some new ones might be created. Also there's going to be a lot of economic disruption as plenty of 1962 assets have disappeared while the 2019 south is now cut off from all its trade, business and infrastructure links
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 22, 2019 18:54:31 GMT
Now that sets up the old question again of can you legally do something about someone who hasn't committed a crime yet? You are right, a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if he in the future might do something horrible, whether we like it ore not, this if Oswald stays in Mexico, then he will have nothing to fear, do not think he will be welcomed with open arms if he goes to 2012 Texas. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 22, 2019 19:08:47 GMT
If you had waited one ore two more days than there would not be a Lee Harvey Oswald who was until then in Mexico and only came back to OTL United states on October 2nd 1962.
Now that sets up the old question again of can you legally do something about someone who hasn't committed a crime yet?
As well as the mid-terms, although would the new south get a vote as their not on the rolls - at least as far as 1962 US is concerned? Also there's likely to be a few people who now exist in two locations, as a child/youth in US62 and an older man in US19. What would be their legal position on voting and other matters.
Another big issue, as your day-by-day thread highlights, is that the Cuban missile crisis is just about to break out. Hopefully it will be handled as peacefully as OTL but with a far more militarily advanced south and also a conservative one there might be the chance of a more militant approach, since the OTL US did considering air attacks, which they would have more capability to do here. Alternatively how much are the USSR going to freak out on the appearance of a markedly more advanced southern US and also the news their going to lose the cold war. Still think its going to be handled peacefully but there is a danger of something going pear shaped.
One other issue, given the knowledge of the 19 south and how bitter US politics are nowadays, is how much is going to come out about President Kennedy? Such as his drug problems, his relationship with the recently deceased Marilyn Monroe and possibly even some of the conspiracy theories about possibly involvement with her death. True its the mid-terms and 62 US doesn't have the same access to instant news but it could discredit both the Democrats and also make Kennedy standing again in 64 unlikely.
Going to be a hell of a lot of people who's lives will be changed because of what the 2019 south can tell the world about them. Hopefully a lot of problems will be avoided but some new ones might be created. Also there's going to be a lot of economic disruption as plenty of 1962 assets have disappeared while the 2019 south is now cut off from all its trade, business and infrastructure links
All in all, interesting points you've made. However, it's the 2012 Southern US getting sent back to 1962, not its 2019 counterpart. As such, even though there's bound to be some level of political turmoil in uptimer lands (i.e. the Tea Party and Obama Derangement Syndrome, among other things), I don't think it's quite as bad as nowadays. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2019 19:11:32 GMT
Now that sets up the old question again of can you legally do something about someone who hasn't committed a crime yet?
As well as the mid-terms, although would the new south get a vote as their not on the rolls - at least as far as 1962 US is concerned? Also there's likely to be a few people who now exist in two locations, as a child/youth in US62 and an older man in US19. What would be their legal position on voting and other matters.
Another big issue, as your day-by-day thread highlights, is that the Cuban missile crisis is just about to break out. Hopefully it will be handled as peacefully as OTL but with a far more militarily advanced south and also a conservative one there might be the chance of a more militant approach, since the OTL US did considering air attacks, which they would have more capability to do here. Alternatively how much are the USSR going to freak out on the appearance of a markedly more advanced southern US and also the news their going to lose the cold war. Still think its going to be handled peacefully but there is a danger of something going pear shaped.
One other issue, given the knowledge of the 19 south and how bitter US politics are nowadays, is how much is going to come out about President Kennedy? Such as his drug problems, his relationship with the recently deceased Marilyn Monroe and possibly even some of the conspiracy theories about possibly involvement with her death. True its the mid-terms and 62 US doesn't have the same access to instant news but it could discredit both the Democrats and also make Kennedy standing again in 64 unlikely.
Going to be a hell of a lot of people who's lives will be changed because of what the 2019 south can tell the world about them. Hopefully a lot of problems will be avoided but some new ones might be created. Also there's going to be a lot of economic disruption as plenty of 1962 assets have disappeared while the 2019 south is now cut off from all its trade, business and infrastructure links
All in all, interesting points you've made. However, it's the 2012 Southern US getting sent back to 1962, not its 2019 counterpart. As such, even though there's bound to be some level of political turmoil in uptimer lands (i.e. the Tea Party and Obama Derangement Syndrome, among other things), I don't think it's quite as bad as nowadays.
Duh. Sorry. must READ the actual OP/thread title!!
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 23, 2019 15:51:06 GMT
I suppose that in addition to the obvious shock of time travel, the Southern US has gone from a once-Democratic stronghold to an arch-Republican bastion and the biggest voting bloc in the country with, what, over 117 million people as of 2012 figures? That compares to a downtimer US population of about 191 million (?), minus a large portion of it being lost with the downtimer South vanishing. Needless to repeat, midterms should turn out much differently than was true IOTL ‘62.
Ironically enough, however, the South is also arguably more (socially) liberal than the rest of the country, probably to the point where handing over control over their TV, internet, and other modern innovations to Washington, D.C. seems...unlikely, if you ask me. Plus, odds are that uptimer Republicans will push for civil rights legislation a couple of years early—not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because it might sway then-oppressed minorities to its side (which would benefit the GOP at the ballot box).
As far as economic legislation goes, I’m aware that the modern US gets a rap for being much more right-wing than its counterpart from forty, fifty years ago—especially the GOP-dominated South of modern times. However, I’m also of the impression that in some ways, there was markedly less government intervention in pre-‘80s America as well; Medicare hasn’t been implemented yet, copyright terms are shorter, and federal student loan assistance doesn’t look to be as big of a deal in 1962. Moreover, those ninety-something-percent tax rates on the wealthy were a) marginal rates and b) counterbalanced by the various deductions, loopholes and outright tax shelters that have since been rescinded by the time that OTL 2012 has rolled around.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 23, 2019 18:19:20 GMT
I suppose that in addition to the obvious shock of time travel, the Southern US has gone from a once-Democratic stronghold to an arch-Republican bastion and the biggest voting bloc in the country with, what, over 117 million people as of 2012 figures? That compares to a downtimer US population of about 191 million (?), minus a large portion of it being lost with the downtimer South vanishing. Needless to repeat, midterms should turn out much differently than was true IOTL ‘62. Ironically enough, however, the South is also arguably more (socially) liberal than the rest of the country, probably to the point where handing over control over their TV, internet, and other modern innovations to Washington, D.C. seems...unlikely, if you ask me. Plus, odds are that uptimer Republicans will push for civil rights legislation a couple of years early—not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because it might sway then-oppressed minorities to its side (which would benefit the GOP at the ballot box). As far as economic legislation goes, I’m aware that the modern US gets a rap for being much more right-wing than its counterpart from forty, fifty years ago—especially the GOP-dominated South of modern times. However, I’m also of the impression that in some ways, there was markedly less government intervention in pre-‘80s America as well; Medicare hasn’t been implemented yet, copyright terms are shorter, and federal student loan assistance doesn’t look to be as big of a deal in 1962. Moreover, those ninety-something-percent tax rates on the wealthy were a) marginal rates and b) counterbalanced by the various deductions, loopholes and outright tax shelters that have since been rescinded by the time that OTL 2012 has rolled around.
Good point. Assuming agreement can be sorted out on elections, which could be a problem, the south on its own would just about match the entire US62 population. Although isn't there a difference in the age allowance, between minimum age of 21 in 1962 and 18 in 2012? Plus how quickly would the 62US accept the actual 12US population figures, which could seem a drastic change to them and the resultant change in the allocation of Congressional seats?
I think if say it was 6 months or a year before the elections things could be handled but this close to the election there's likely to be a lot of disputes between the two groups and how that is resolved, or the implications of its not being I don't know.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 24, 2019 15:58:21 GMT
I suppose that in addition to the obvious shock of time travel, the Southern US has gone from a once-Democratic stronghold to an arch-Republican bastion and the biggest voting bloc in the country with, what, over 117 million people as of 2012 figures? That compares to a downtimer US population of about 191 million (?), minus a large portion of it being lost with the downtimer South vanishing. Needless to repeat, midterms should turn out much differently than was true IOTL ‘62. Ironically enough, however, the South is also arguably more (socially) liberal than the rest of the country, probably to the point where handing over control over their TV, internet, and other modern innovations to Washington, D.C. seems...unlikely, if you ask me. Plus, odds are that uptimer Republicans will push for civil rights legislation a couple of years early—not just because it's the right thing to do, but also because it might sway then-oppressed minorities to its side (which would benefit the GOP at the ballot box). As far as economic legislation goes, I’m aware that the modern US gets a rap for being much more right-wing than its counterpart from forty, fifty years ago—especially the GOP-dominated South of modern times. However, I’m also of the impression that in some ways, there was markedly less government intervention in pre-‘80s America as well; Medicare hasn’t been implemented yet, copyright terms are shorter, and federal student loan assistance doesn’t look to be as big of a deal in 1962. Moreover, those ninety-something-percent tax rates on the wealthy were a) marginal rates and b) counterbalanced by the various deductions, loopholes and outright tax shelters that have since been rescinded by the time that OTL 2012 has rolled around.
Good point. Assuming agreement can be sorted out on elections, which could be a problem, the south on its own would just about match the entire US62 population. Although isn't there a difference in the age allowance, between minimum age of 21 in 1962 and 18 in 2012? Plus how quickly would the 62US accept the actual 12US population figures, which could seem a drastic change to them and the resultant change in the allocation of Congressional seats?
I think if say it was 6 months or a year before the elections things could be handled but this close to the election there's likely to be a lot of disputes between the two groups and how that is resolved, or the implications of its not being I don't know.
Oh, yeah; I almost forgot about the different minimum ages between the two Americas. Maybe they’ll come to a temporary compromise with Capitol Hill stipulating that while uptimers don’t have to serve (since there's still conscription in 1962), those that don’t will still need to be twenty-one to vote in national (though probably not state) elections. Those that do serve, however, may be eligible to vote in both if they’re over eighteen. That said, there might also be something about greatly limiting—if not halting—military operations in Vietnam and other areas in Southeast Asia at this time. Discounting actual agreements between the 2012 South and rest of the country, though, the fact that uptimers can vote at just eighteen may give the downtimer youth some ideas of their own, much to their elders’ inevitable chagrin. Once modern media--namely TV and the online kind--makes it to downtimer lands, which I'm guessing that the South would want to keep laxly regulated as per business-friendly uptimer norms, well...you get the idea. All in all, while I can't determine how both sides will respond to the game-changing electoral changes brought upon by this ISOT, I anticipate a sort of “one country, two systems” arrangement between the 2012 South and rest of the United States—with the former standing in for Hong Kong, and the latter standing in for mainland China. Except, of course, for the fact that the South can’t exactly be bullied or bludgeoned into submission due to its sheer size and fifty years’ worth of further cultural, economic and technological advancements. So if Washington, D.C. is looking to impose its will on some uppity uptimers...yeah, they won’t get nearly as far as they’d like to with that approach. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 16, 2019 19:29:36 GMT
Now I’m wondering how the uptimer South might initially accommodate and reintegrate downtimers who were elsewhere when the ISOT took place, only to come back to a place fifty years into the future. Somehow, I’m guessing that a sizable number of ’60s southerners—though surely not all of them—who return there will cause quite the trouble upon arrival if not properly screened first. And even then, a few potential rabble-rousers are likely to make it past those measures.
Furthermore, how might they react to the fact that their beloved South is now an arch-Republican bastion, compared to the Democratic stronghold it was mere days and weeks before? Downtimer congressmen who represent Southern states will probably be hard to deal with in this regard, especially since there’s now dispute over whether uptimers or downtimers represent the states in question due to the fifty-year ISOT that has taken place.
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Post by lordroel on Nov 16, 2019 20:11:28 GMT
Now I’m wondering how the uptimer South might initially accommodate and reintegrate downtimers who were elsewhere when the ISOT took place, only to come back to a place fifty years into the future. Somehow, I’m guessing that a sizable number of ’60s southerners—though surely not all of them—who return there will cause quite the trouble upon arrival if not properly screened first. And even then, a few potential rabble-rousers are likely to make it past those measures. Furthermore, how might they react to the fact that their beloved South is now an arch-Republican bastion, compared to the Democratic stronghold it was mere days and weeks before? Downtimer congressmen who represent Southern states will probably be hard to deal with in this regard, especially since there’s now dispute over whether uptimers or downtimers represent the states in question due to the fifty-year ISOT that has taken place. Would 1950 people who live in the South want to live in 2012 South, also can they successfully integrate there. |
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 16, 2019 20:16:16 GMT
Now I’m wondering how the uptimer South might initially accommodate and reintegrate downtimers who were elsewhere when the ISOT took place, only to come back to a place fifty years into the future. Somehow, I’m guessing that a sizable number of ’60s southerners—though surely not all of them—who return there will cause quite the trouble upon arrival if not properly screened first. And even then, a few potential rabble-rousers are likely to make it past those measures. Furthermore, how might they react to the fact that their beloved South is now an arch-Republican bastion, compared to the Democratic stronghold it was mere days and weeks before? Downtimer congressmen who represent Southern states will probably be hard to deal with in this regard, especially since there’s now dispute over whether uptimers or downtimers represent the states in question due to the fifty-year ISOT that has taken place. Would 1950 people who live in the South want to live in 2012 South, also can they successfully integrate there. That’s a good question. Though it’ll inevitably vary from person to person, I’m guessing that most ‘62 people—aside from maybe the more impressionable young people of the era—would say no. Again, civil rights—which was obviously contested in 1960s America—is mostly treated as axiomatically right in the uptimer South. Plus, there’s the social liberalism that downtimers may find off-putting, as well as right-wing economic policies that could garner mixed reactions as well. Downtimer minorities, however, may be an exception since the uptimers will treat them decently (for the most part, anyway). |
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2019 11:01:40 GMT
Would 1950 people who live in the South want to live in 2012 South, also can they successfully integrate there. That’s a good question. Though it’ll inevitably vary from person to person, I’m guessing that most ‘62 people—aside from maybe the more impressionable young people of the era—would say no. Again, civil rights—which was obviously contested in 1960s America—is mostly treated as axiomatically right in the uptimer South. Plus, there’s the social liberalism that downtimers may find off-putting, as well as right-wing economic policies that could garner mixed reactions as well. Downtimer minorities, however, may be an exception since the uptimers will treat them decently (for the most part, anyway).
Would agree, especially with the last bit. Although they would miss the families their lost a lot of 62 blacks especially are likely to want to 'return' to the new south once the initial economic disruption passed. Both because of the fact they would avoid the racial discrimination and because the south would offer much better salaries and working conditions - albeit at higher costs as well I would assume given 50 years of inflation. The south might attract a lot of whites as well for economic reasons once it starts rolling but the incomers would have to accept the social values of the new south. This would apply to blacks as well as many were socially conservative at the time.
One other thing would be assorted laws on many aspects, such as the environment, health and safety, abortion [of course] etc. Even through there have been periodic roll backs since Reagan for instance I suspect that rules on pollution levels are tighter in the new south than in the old US and would it also have problems with things like old US cars not meeting safety levels for instance?
Think your right that there would have to be some sort of one US two systems at least for a while. It might still end up in a divorce if the differences are going to be too wide.
Not sure there will be less involvement in the Vietnam war but might be a wiser one.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 17, 2019 15:22:53 GMT
That’s a good question. Though it’ll inevitably vary from person to person, I’m guessing that most ‘62 people—aside from maybe the more impressionable young people of the era—would say no. Again, civil rights—which was obviously contested in 1960s America—is mostly treated as axiomatically right in the uptimer South. Plus, there’s the social liberalism that downtimers may find off-putting, as well as right-wing economic policies that could garner mixed reactions as well. Downtimer minorities, however, may be an exception since the uptimers will treat them decently (for the most part, anyway).
Would agree, especially with the last bit. Although they would miss the families their lost a lot of 62 blacks especially are likely to want to 'return' to the new south once the initial economic disruption passed. Both because of the fact they would avoid the racial discrimination and because the south would offer much better salaries and working conditions - albeit at higher costs as well I would assume given 50 years of inflation. The south might attract a lot of whites as well for economic reasons once it starts rolling but the incomers would have to accept the social values of the new south. This would apply to blacks as well as many were socially conservative at the time.
One other thing would be assorted laws on many aspects, such as the environment, health and safety, abortion [of course] etc. Even through there have been periodic roll backs since Reagan for instance I suspect that rules on pollution levels are tighter in the new south than in the old US and would it also have problems with things like old US cars not meeting safety levels for instance?
Think your right that there would have to be some sort of one US two systems at least for a while. It might still end up in a divorce if the differences are going to be too wide.
Not sure there will be less involvement in the Vietnam war but might be a wiser one.
Again, good points to have made. To clarify some ambiguities, Washington D.C. remains downtimer land, meaning that President Obama & Company don’t join in for the ride. Which, of course, leaves the 1962 White House, Congress and Supreme Court left over in the midst of a South from fifty years into the future. Regarding the map itself, there seems to be a correlation between black population and darker coloration of certain states, though I don’t know if that’s the intent for sure. For some more questions on what the ISOT entails, I wonder where downtimer Congressmen will go if and when they’ve been replaced by their uptimer counterparts. Somehow, I bet that most of them will be poorly received upon arrival in the uptimer South (due to antiquated social stances and political views). Also, could the downtimer SCOTUS have some new cases on its hands with the uptimer South vying for autonomy? If they don’t rule in the uptimers’ favor on a large number of disputes, the South might just ignore them and do their own thing (which the Justices are probably smart enough to understand). Either way, they’d have to at least address future cases that haven’t been deciding during or prior to 1962, i.e. Roe V. Wade. |
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Post by lordroel on Nov 17, 2019 15:27:48 GMT
. For some more questions on what the ISOT entails, I wonder where downtimer Congressmen will go They will most likely establish a congress in exile for the 1962 states who are now gone. |
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