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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 21, 2019 18:36:25 GMT
Tabacalera Muerte
This TL explores the scenario of the Spanish Tabacco Monopoly failing due to the Pagans surviving and thriving..
Infidel Recovery
On the mid 18th century after the famine in the late 17th century and the eruption of Taal, the Pagan and Crypto Muslim populations in Luzon would start to flourish again, the Pagans would be said to dominate the Upper Reaches of the Cagayan and Pampanga river watersheds and the population of the Lower Cagayan river watersheds and Lower Pampanga river watersheds and Lower Agno watersheds would be lessened by the earlier famine, in the case of Cagayan the decimation of the Irraya and the case of Pampanga it would be the case of the natives of Tondo and Bulacan.
The Taal volcano would spew Ash on the lands of Kumintang destroying the ports of Kumintang and the Pansipit.
The Spanish would not feel the death toll of their loyal supporters on the Island, the Pagans would recover from the famine in the 17th to early 18th century and the Spanish would not know what would happen with the land that they are in until it was too late, the Pagans don’t acknowledge the Spanish.
On Kumintang repeated revolts would happen and there would be both Crypto Muslim population in Kumintang which would recover from the Famine and they would recover and are still existing in the present day.
During that time the Spanish under Charles III would have issues against Napoleon as Napoleon would have tried to attack Spain, the Spanish led by Charles III would not seem to notice that parts of Luzon that they are occupying are now lessen in the Northern half of that Island, the Spanish would have issues in the South but they would have issues in the North as well.
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 21, 2019 18:38:26 GMT
Pagan revival
On the latter part of the late 18th century the Pagans would start to replace the population that have been decimated by the prior famine in the Agno, Cagayan and Pampanga basin further destroying the plans of the Spanish in their area in the early 19th century they would have replaced the decimated populations in the Agno, Cagayan and Pampanga river basins and due to that, the Spanish are more disadvantaged in their rule in Luzon or Saludong.
The Pagans in Luzon or rather Saludong would not recognize the Spanish and the Spanish would have lost their control in the farmlands in Upper Cagayan and Upper Pampanga as the Pagans would have attacked the Spanish and it did not help that the Christians in the areas are less loyal to the Spanish.
During the time when Pagans became the majority of the Middle of Cagayan Basin and Pampanga basin was the time when Novales Revolt and Basi revolts happened and the Pagans being numerous would have meant that the Spanish controlling Luzon would have been a net loss to the Spanish.
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 21, 2019 18:39:46 GMT
The Inevitable End
The Pagans would have caused the Spanish to lose interest in their colony and the failure of the Tabacco Monopoly due to the Pagans of Saludong but during 1810’s the Spanish have been discussing the transfer and the sale the Island to the British which was finalized in 1820 in the reign of George III of Great Britain as some of the Spanish have discussed the Spanish abandoning the Philippines altogether but they decided that it is time to dispose of a useless colony.
During that point in time the remnants of the Silang and Palaris revolt would have also started the nationalism in Saludong.
The Chaos in Luzon or Saludong and the failure of the Tabacco Monopoly would have forced the Spanish under Ferdinand VII to bow to the Inevitable, it has been discussed for a long time about the sale of the Philippines for the British but the Spanish would want to sell or cede only Luzon or Saludong to British as the Spanish would have wanted to keep the Loyal areas under the Spanish, the Spanish would have Ceded Luzon to the British in 1820 in exchange for 5000 pounds, under the reign of King George III of Great Britain, he would have given both the Pagans and Christians rights and the other Christians aside from Ilocanos would gradually convert to Anglicanism.
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 21, 2019 18:42:05 GMT
Thomas Brooke
King George IV would make Thomas Brooke[1] as the governor of Saludong or Luzon on 1820, as he have planned, Thomas Brooke would have been a good governor of that land and it has been recovering from mistreatment and now the Christians and Pagans would have been treated with fairness by its new master and George IV and the British would call the island as New Albion and the colonial maps would reflect this.
And the Hindu Indian migrants would go to Saludong or Luzon as immigrants in the island, the earlier Indian immigrants would have assimilated to the population and there would be good relations between the island and India.
During his term, the Pagans would continue to Ameliorate that would make the Pagans the half of the population of Saludong or Luzon and he would give them their self determination and he would rule the Christian lands.
During that point in time the two-common language of that island the Tagalos and Tagarug/Tagalog/Iraya language would have begun to form, both languages would be ambiguously called as Tagalog as the people of the island are called.[2]
On 1832 borders between the British ruled Saludong and the Spanish ruled Philippines and it had been settled with the Spanish and the British and the Criolo and Insulares inhabitants of Saludong would migrate to the areas still controlled by the Spanish, during at that point the Spanish would have called the British held Luzon as Pais Tagala.
After the cession the Spanish would create a deal to retain Intramuros temporarily for 50 years and establishing the borders of British ruled Saludong years after they ceded the island completely.
1. Father of James Brooke, OTL ruler of Sarawak.
2. The language Tagarug/Tagalog is based on Gaddang with some influence of southern tagalos and Ilocano language due to the settlers in the tabacco monopoly, the Tagalos language is a language closely related to Visayan.
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 21, 2019 23:26:44 GMT
Marcelo Azcarraga
Marcelo Azcarraga’s family would be the victims of the slow purge of the people related to the Spanish regime in the British controlled Saludong or Luzon, which would force them to transfer to Manila and parts that are still in Spanish control and they would learn the fact that Manila would remain under Spanish control for half a century once the borders of the British controlled Luzon or Saludong or Pais Tagala have been finalized, this would have an effect on his life and how he would interact with the British regarding the status of Intramuros which is slowly and slowly being ceded.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2019 9:58:52 GMT
Marcelo Azcarraga
Marcelo Azcarraga’s family would be the victims of the slow purge of the people related to the Spanish regime in the British controlled Saludong or Luzon, which would force them to transfer to Manila and parts that are still in Spanish control and they would learn the fact that Manila would remain under Spanish control for half a century once the borders of the British controlled Luzon or Saludong or Pais Tagala have been finalized, this would have an effect on his life and how he would interact with the British regarding the status of Intramuros which is slowly and slowly being ceded.
On 1868, On the deposal of Queen Isabella II, he returned to spain and hastened the restoration of the Bourbon rule in Spain and became the Lieutenant General on the coronation of Alfonso XII as King of Spain.
kasumigenx
Fascinating although I don't know anything like enough about the history of the period to comment - which is probably deterring others from commenting as well. However a couple of questions:
a) Given the bias against them in the period could a pagan culture survive under either Spanish or British rule in this time period.
b) Aren't you assuming quite a butterfly net to still have events occurring so closely OTL?
Also would it be possible to get a map of the region under British control please?
Thanks
Steve
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 22, 2019 13:35:35 GMT
Marcelo Azcarraga
Marcelo Azcarraga’s family would be the victims of the slow purge of the people related to the Spanish regime in the British controlled Saludong or Luzon, which would force them to transfer to Manila and parts that are still in Spanish control and they would learn the fact that Manila would remain under Spanish control for half a century once the borders of the British controlled Luzon or Saludong or Pais Tagala have been finalized, this would have an effect on his life and how he would interact with the British regarding the status of Intramuros which is slowly and slowly being ceded.
On 1868, On the deposal of Queen Isabella II, he returned to spain and hastened the restoration of the Bourbon rule in Spain and became the Lieutenant General on the coronation of Alfonso XII as King of Spain.
kasumigenx
Fascinating although I don't know anything like enough about the history of the period to comment - which is probably deterring others from commenting as well. However a couple of questions:
a) Given the bias against them in the period could a pagan culture survive under either Spanish or British rule in this time period.
b) Aren't you assuming quite a butterfly net to still have events occurring so closely OTL?
Also would it be possible to get a map of the region under British control please?
Thanks
Steve
a) My answer is that the Pagans were Struck by Famine so the IOTL Provinces of Nueva Vizcaya(whose part became part of Isabela), parts of Tarlac, Abra, La Trinidad and Nueva Ecija remain Primarily Pagan ITTL and the Pagans don't recognize Spanish rule and the Spanish were never able to establish rule there ITTL and never will and their population will expand and mix with the christian on the border between the Pagan and Christian lands and some of them will go down to the cities as well the British would leave the Pagans/Hindus alone like what they did with Muslims in Malaysia and the Indians that they would export there would mix with the Pagans. b) I made the Butterflies spread little, the major butterflies would happen near that region, it would make the TL more easier to write. c) Malaysia's existence will be Butterflied but Luzon would be treated by Britain and India in the same vein as Malaysia. Here is a Map www.deviantart.com/kazumikikuchi/art/Tabacalera-Muerte-1898-817631817 |
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 22, 2019 13:51:56 GMT
[delete]
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2019 19:10:14 GMT
Gibraltar
In the years after Trafalgar, Gibraltar became a major supply base for supporting the Spanish uprising against Napoleon Bonaparte. The French invasion of Spain would prompt Gibraltar’s British garrison to cross the border and destroy the ring of Spanish fortresses around he bay as well as the old Spanish fortified lines in the peninsula to deny the French the ability to besiege Gibraltar or control the bay from Shore batteries.
French forces would reach as far as San Roque, just north of Gibraltar, but did not target Gibraltar itself as they believed that it was impregnable. The French besieged Tarifa, further down the coast, in 1811-1812 but gave up after a month.
During that point in time, the Spanish royals would reach for help with the British and set up a deal on 1820, ceding the Island of Luzon or Saludong in exchange of Gibraltar restoring the Spanish rule in the Isthmus.
It has been discussed for a long time the cession of the whole Philippines to Britain, however, the Spanish would have known as the regions of Visayas and Mindanao that they rule are loyal to them the Spanish have now only ruled the Coastal and the area near the Seas of the North and also Saludong has a rebellious population, they would not waste to lose a land that is still loyal to them and decided to cede Saludong or Luzon only to Britain in exchange of the return of Gibraltar to the Spanish which is a part of Iberia.
Many thanks for the map. That helps give a clearer picture. I'm not sure that Britain would give up Gibraltar for Luzon however. While the latter is larger and more popoulous Britain already has territory in the region to supply bases and trade connections and I suspect Raffles would still secure Malaya as OTL. Both because of its economic value and also its strategic location. That's the reason why I think Britain would be very unlikely to give up Gib as it provides secure access [at least before air power comes into play] to the Med which is very important both economically and strategically. Especially with Europe still unsecure in many ways after the Napoleonic wars I think they would find that a lot more important than the addition of more of the Phillippines.
Steve
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 23, 2019 6:03:04 GMT
Gibraltar
In the years after Trafalgar, Gibraltar became a major supply base for supporting the Spanish uprising against Napoleon Bonaparte. The French invasion of Spain would prompt Gibraltar’s British garrison to cross the border and destroy the ring of Spanish fortresses around he bay as well as the old Spanish fortified lines in the peninsula to deny the French the ability to besiege Gibraltar or control the bay from Shore batteries.
French forces would reach as far as San Roque, just north of Gibraltar, but did not target Gibraltar itself as they believed that it was impregnable. The French besieged Tarifa, further down the coast, in 1811-1812 but gave up after a month.
During that point in time, the Spanish royals would reach for help with the British and set up a deal on 1820, ceding the Island of Luzon or Saludong in exchange of Gibraltar restoring the Spanish rule in the Isthmus.
It has been discussed for a long time the cession of the whole Philippines to Britain, however, the Spanish would have known as the regions of Visayas and Mindanao that they rule are loyal to them the Spanish have now only ruled the Coastal and the area near the Seas of the North and also Saludong has a rebellious population, they would not waste to lose a land that is still loyal to them and decided to cede Saludong or Luzon only to Britain in exchange of the return of Gibraltar to the Spanish which is a part of Iberia.
Many thanks for the map. That helps give a clearer picture. I'm not sure that Britain would give up Gibraltar for Luzon however. While the latter is larger and more popoulous Britain already has territory in the region to supply bases and trade connections and I suspect Raffles would still secure Malaya as OTL. Both because of its economic value and also its strategic location. That's the reason why I think Britain would be very unlikely to give up Gib as it provides secure access [at least before air power comes into play] to the Med which is very important both economically and strategically. Especially with Europe still unsecure in many ways after the Napoleonic wars I think they would find that a lot more important than the addition of more of the Phillippines.
Steve
I think they can do that, ITTL since they would stop festering Spain and ally with it instead, I have plans of UK and Spain allying against the US and the Malaya and Sarawak adventure has been butterflied as well as the involvement of Britain in the Malay Archipelago proper but I have not yet convered is Australia, Oceania and NZ butterflies but we will get there. I have good plans for Portuguese East Indies... |
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 25, 2019 5:14:22 GMT
Reconquest of Mexico
Despite the victory of Mexico over the last Spanish bastion in Ulúa, Spain refused to recognize the Treaty of Córdoba and hence the independence of Mexico.
The Mexican government, led by Guadalupe Victoria had concluded that Spain, by its refusal to recognize the treaties, still posed a threat and could use Cuba as a platform to launch a campaign to recover Mexico. Lucas Alaman, who was then the Mexican Minister of Foreign Affairs assessed the threat that is posed by thye military forces station in Cuba to Mexico. Since 1824, Alaman had held the belief that Mexico should seize Cuba from Spain, arguing that “Cuba without Mexico is aimed at imperialist yoke and that Mexico without Cuba is a prisoner of the Gulf of Mexico.” He believed that the Mexican forces, with the support of foreign powers such as France or England, could overcome the Spanish in Cuba.
To Advance its ambitions to control the Island and to prevent the reconquest of the mainland, the Mexican government employed Commodore David Porter of the United States to command the Mexican Navy in an attack on the maritime lines of Spain patrolling the island of Cuba. This was an effort to protect the Mexican territorial sea and ensure the continued success of its independence movements on all fronts. Thus began the patrols of Mexican squadron in the Spanish Waters, which culminated in the unsuccessful battle of Mariel on February 10, 1828, in which Porter commanded the brig Guerrero, mounting 22 guns, and one of the finest vessals in the small Mexican Navy. Porter’s son, midshipman David Dixon Porter, later a Union her of the American Civil War, was slightly wounded. He was among the survivors who surrendered and were imprisoned in Havana until they could be swapped. Commodore Porter chose not to risk his sons life again and sent him back to the United States via the way of the New Orleans.
On July 26, 1829, the fleet arrived in Cabo Rojo, near Tampico (State of Tamaulipas) with the help of the British, it was apparent that the British would have some rights in the land of Honduras in exchange of their help to the Spanish conquest of Mexico which would lead to Mexico becoming under the Spanish yoke again destroying the independence movement.
note: Adios Mexico.. 
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 25, 2019 6:33:49 GMT
Oregon
During the period of joint occupation, most of the activity in the region outside of the indigencous people came from the fur trade, which was dominated by the British Hudson’s Bay Company. Overtime, some trappers began to settle down in the area and began farming, and the missionaries would start to arrive in the 1830s. Some settlers would also arrive in the late 1830s, and covered wagons crossed the Oregon Trail beginning in 1841. At that time, no government existed in the Oregon Trail beginning in the 1841. At that time, no government existed in the Oregon Country, as no one nation held dominion over that territory.
A group of settlers in the Williamette Valley began to meet in 1841 to discuss organizing a government for the area. These earliest documented discussions, mostly concerning forming a government, were held in an early pioneer and Native American encampment and later town known as Champoeg, creation of the Provisional Government of Oregon. In 1846 the Oregon Boundary dispute was settled with the signing of the Oregon Treaty. The British gained sole possession of the land north of the 49th parallel and the boundary would be the 49th boundary.
The United States federal government would leave their part of the region unorganized until the border of Canada and the United States would have been settled in the Oregon treaty and Oregon would be designated as the first capital.
note: there are butterflies so it will not be similar to the map I gave.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,409
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Post by stevep on Oct 25, 2019 9:44:44 GMT
Many thanks for the map. That helps give a clearer picture. I'm not sure that Britain would give up Gibraltar for Luzon however. While the latter is larger and more popoulous Britain already has territory in the region to supply bases and trade connections and I suspect Raffles would still secure Malaya as OTL. Both because of its economic value and also its strategic location. That's the reason why I think Britain would be very unlikely to give up Gib as it provides secure access [at least before air power comes into play] to the Med which is very important both economically and strategically. Especially with Europe still unsecure in many ways after the Napoleonic wars I think they would find that a lot more important than the addition of more of the Phillippines.
Steve
I think they can do that, ITTL since they would stop festering Spain and ally with it instead, I have plans of UK and Spain allying against the US and the Malaya and Sarawak adventure has been butterflied as well as the involvement of Britain in the Malay Archipelago proper but I have not yet convered is Australia, Oceania and NZ butterflies but we will get there. I have good plans for Portuguese East Indies...
Sorry I missed this earlier but have to disagree. Both because Gib has so much strategic importance for Britain and because by this time Spain is very much a 2nd level power. Also since Britain's traditional rival is France which has a land border and is much stronger than Spain there is no chance of a substantial and lasting alliance between Britain and Spain. Even without there being some long terms feuds there, British support for the ongoing revolutions in Latin America and the cultural differences.
You do realise that by this time the Portuguese had lost virtually all their possessions in the east Indies? Or did you mean the Dutch?
The Malayan adventure came from the occupation of the DEI during the latter stages of the Napoleonic wars, which is unlikely to be avoided unless there are very substantial butterflies in Europe, i.e Britain doesn't get overwhelming naval superiority or Napoleon falls markedly earlier. Realising both its strategic importance and the potential wealth a fair number of British interests in the region wanted to maintain control and when that fell through because of opposition in London settled for influence in the Malaya peninsula and the founding of Singapore. Again I suspect Britain will want a base in such an important region so at the least I would expect the latter to still come about.
Its your TL but I have to say I'm very doubtful about this point as you can tell. Quite possibly Sarawak might be butterflied but I can't see Britain giving up the Rock or not getting some base in the east Indies.
PS Just read the two following posts. It was the conservative monarchies, led by France, that were proposing supporting Spain in attempts to retain its empire. Britain blocked this, enabled by its naval superiority, in part because of liberal ministers in government at the time and in part because independent states would be good markets for Britain whereas a continued Spanish empire would be pretty much closed to them. [Some rights in the Honduras region - acceptance of the existing British protectorate over the Mosquito coast region? - which Britain already controlled anyway wouldn't have been anything like as important economically. Even if Britain did support Spain, it would be mainly France troops doing the fighting rather than British but I suspect they wouldn't find it that easy to secure the entire Spanish empire in the Americas which was their intent. Then again it would have to hold it once its allies withdrew. Not to mention the question of a possible clash over Florida.
You seem to be saying that the US supported the Spanish maintenance of Cuba, which would be unlikely. Then you have a prominent US naval officer involved in supporting the Mexican attempts to attack Cuba?
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Post by kasumigenx on Oct 25, 2019 12:25:37 GMT
I think they can do that, ITTL since they would stop festering Spain and ally with it instead, I have plans of UK and Spain allying against the US and the Malaya and Sarawak adventure has been butterflied as well as the involvement of Britain in the Malay Archipelago proper but I have not yet convered is Australia, Oceania and NZ butterflies but we will get there. I have good plans for Portuguese East Indies...
Sorry I missed this earlier but have to disagree. Both because Gib has so much strategic importance for Britain and because by this time Spain is very much a 2nd level power. Also since Britain's traditional rival is France which has a land border and is much stronger than Spain there is no chance of a substantial and lasting alliance between Britain and Spain. Even without there being some long terms feuds there, British support for the ongoing revolutions in Latin America and the cultural differences.
You do realise that by this time the Portuguese had lost virtually all their possessions in the east Indies? Or did you mean the Dutch?
The Malayan adventure came from the occupation of the DEI during the latter stages of the Napoleonic wars, which is unlikely to be avoided unless there are very substantial butterflies in Europe, i.e Britain doesn't get overwhelming naval superiority or Napoleon falls markedly earlier. Realising both its strategic importance and the potential wealth a fair number of British interests in the region wanted to maintain control and when that fell through because of opposition in London settled for influence in the Malaya peninsula and the founding of Singapore. Again I suspect Britain will want a base in such an important region so at the least I would expect the latter to still come about.
Its your TL but I have to say I'm very doubtful about this point as you can tell. Quite possibly Sarawak might be butterflied but I can't see Britain giving up the Rock or not getting some base in the east Indies.
PS Just read the two following posts. It was the conservative monarchies, led by France, that were proposing supporting Spain in attempts to retain its empire. Britain blocked this, enabled by its naval superiority, in part because of liberal ministers in government at the time and in part because independent states would be good markets for Britain whereas a continued Spanish empire would be pretty much closed to them. [Some rights in the Honduras region - acceptance of the existing British protectorate over the Mosquito coast region? - which Britain already controlled anyway wouldn't have been anything like as important economically. Even if Britain did support Spain, it would be mainly France troops doing the fighting rather than British but I suspect they wouldn't find it that easy to secure the entire Spanish empire in the Americas which was their intent. Then again it would have to hold it once its allies withdrew. Not to mention the question of a possible clash over Florida.
You seem to be saying that the US supported the Spanish maintenance of Cuba, which would be unlikely. Then you have a prominent US naval officer involved in supporting the Mexican attempts to attack Cuba?
Although I think I would instead choose for Britain to pursue Sumatra leaving Borneo contested between Spain and the Dutch and the British would help the Portuguese keep what is left of what they have in the Indies as long as possible. |
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