lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2019 8:03:33 GMT
I always wonder, what if PM Churchill offered a carrier ore two to join the US Navy Pacific Fleet, what could they have at the Battle of Midway.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2019 9:14:47 GMT
I always wonder, what if PM Churchill offered a carrier ore two to join the US Navy Pacific Fleet, what could they have at the Battle of Midway.
Well they would have been limited because of relatively small a/c capacity and also weaker a/c compared to the USN at that point. Also there would have been the issue of different doctrines as well as supporting a British force so far from any British base. However the armoured decks of the British carriers would make them a hell of a lot more difficult to knock out, at least as fair as dive bombers were concerned.
The big problem is that the RN simply couldn't spare anything at that point. Apart from some heavy losses in the 2nd half of 41 Britain was massively overstretched at this point with demands in the Atlantic, Med and Indian Ocean requiring fleets there. In the Indian Ocean raid by the Japanese a month or so earlier Britain's fleet in the Indian Ocean while it including some newer CVs the battlefleet was elderly WWI veterans and it was heavily outnumbered.
This latter is a point being discussed on one of the naval sites I visit. In a day time clash they would be totally slaughtered unless they got very lucky but unlike other nations, including Japan, the FAA had the capacity to attack ships at sea during the night and its possible that they could have given the Japanese a nasty shock if a single intelligence report had been slightly different. [IIRC the scouting a/c gave a brief report on the position and direction of the Japanese force by the sighting of one CV but it was actually following a different course then the bulk of the fleet at that point. As such the resultant search to allow a night attack looked in the wrong direction and failed to find the Japanese.  ] |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2019 9:17:14 GMT
I always wonder, what if PM Churchill offered a carrier ore two to join the US Navy Pacific Fleet, what could they have at the Battle of Midway. Well they would have been limited because of relatively small a/c capacity and also weaker a/c compared to the USN at that point. Also there would have been the issue of different doctrines as well as supporting a British force so far from any British base. However the armoured decks of the British carriers would make them a hell of a lot more difficult to knock out, at least as fair as dive bombers were concerned. The big problem is that the RN simply couldn't spare anything at that point. Apart from some heavy losses in the 2nd half of 41 Britain was massively overstretched at this point with demands in the Atlantic, Med and Indian Ocean requiring fleets there. In the Indian Ocean raid by the Japanese a month or so earlier Britain's fleet in the Indian Ocean while it including some newer CVs the battlefleet was elderly WWI veterans and it was heavily outnumbered.
This latter is a point being discussed on one of the naval sites I visit. In a day time clash they would be totally slaughtered unless they got very lucky but unlike other nations, including Japan, the FAA had the capacity to attack ships at sea during the night and its possible that they could have given the Japanese a nasty shock if a single intelligence report had been slightly different. [IIRC the scouting a/c gave a brief report on the position and direction of the Japanese force by the sighting of one CV but it was actually following a different course then the bulk of the fleet at that point. As such the resultant search to allow a night attack looked in the wrong direction and failed to find the Japanese. ] So not use for the Royal Navy sending carriers in 1941/1942 to aid the US navy in any battle in the Pacific, but by 1945 they did had the capacity. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 24, 2019 10:08:36 GMT
Well they would have been limited because of relatively small a/c capacity and also weaker a/c compared to the USN at that point. Also there would have been the issue of different doctrines as well as supporting a British force so far from any British base. However the armoured decks of the British carriers would make them a hell of a lot more difficult to knock out, at least as fair as dive bombers were concerned. The big problem is that the RN simply couldn't spare anything at that point. Apart from some heavy losses in the 2nd half of 41 Britain was massively overstretched at this point with demands in the Atlantic, Med and Indian Ocean requiring fleets there. In the Indian Ocean raid by the Japanese a month or so earlier Britain's fleet in the Indian Ocean while it including some newer CVs the battlefleet was elderly WWI veterans and it was heavily outnumbered.
This latter is a point being discussed on one of the naval sites I visit. In a day time clash they would be totally slaughtered unless they got very lucky but unlike other nations, including Japan, the FAA had the capacity to attack ships at sea during the night and its possible that they could have given the Japanese a nasty shock if a single intelligence report had been slightly different. [IIRC the scouting a/c gave a brief report on the position and direction of the Japanese force by the sighting of one CV but it was actually following a different course then the bulk of the fleet at that point. As such the resultant search to allow a night attack looked in the wrong direction and failed to find the Japanese. ] So not use for the Royal Navy sending carriers in 1941/1942 to aid the US navy in any battle in the Pacific, but by 1945 they did had the capacity. The Royal Navy had already had a very bad time against the Japanese that early in the war. There had been the loss of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse (capital ships), losses in the Java Sea (fighting alongside the Americans, Australians and Dutch) and then the Indian Ocean raid too. Combine this with the need to keep Germany's capital ships bottled up and there was nothing to spare. 1945 was a different thing with much greater capacity, yes, but also long after the Americans had already battered the Japanese significantly. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2019 9:43:31 GMT
Very much so. It would be possible for Britain to hold Malaya and parts of the DEI. Would need the latter to secure the former. However assuming no POD that isn't some time before Sept 39 or involving France not falling, naval power wouldn't be the way to do it. You would need some properly equipped and trained ground forces decently led and a lot of land based air. The RN with its commitments in Europe simply wasn't up to the task, especially how lethal KB was in the early part of the was in Asia/Pacific.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 25, 2019 16:32:59 GMT
Would the addition of a Royal Navy vessel (or few) even be a necessary presence at Midway, though? I'm aware that American forces suffered their fair share of casualties despite their eventual victory, but based on what discussion has taken place so far, sending a British ship to accompany the US Navy likely would've made for little difference in the battle's outcome.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2019 20:43:26 GMT
Would the addition of a Royal Navy vessel (or few) even be a necessary presence at Midway, though? I'm aware that American forces suffered their fair share of casualties despite their eventual victory, but based on what discussion has taken place so far, sending a British ship to accompany the US Navy likely would've made for little difference in the battle's outcome.
Its unlikely to make a significant difference unless the butterflies could in some way mean that the Japanese locate their enemy 1st in which case it might even go pear shaped for the allies, with a heavy defeat at sea. This would prolong the war but not by too much I suspect and in the unlikely event of the Japanese being able to actually occupy Midway they would probably find it a poisonous fruit given the difficulty of supplying it so near to the main US naval base. Basically apart from the RN being too stretched - even if they knew a Japanese attack was coming in time to get something there - it would impose a strain on the US facilities to support a foreign force so the USN might not be agreeable to the idea.
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Post by ashimbabbar on Oct 10, 2019 15:10:35 GMT
IIRC when the Repulse and the Prince of Wales were sent to Malaya, a CV had been scheduled to be sent along but ran aground in Jamaica. Lacking air cover, the battleship and battlecruiser were easily sunk. We may hypothesize that they would not have been had the CV been with them. So they might conceivably have played havoc with the Japanese transports and slowed down or possibly stemmed the invasion of Malaya. It is with such a background ( with possibly Burma not lost, Singapore still holding out etc ) that we may place that CV's posisble implication at Midway. Personnally I believe the British would have had their hands full and could not have spared such a key element of their defense. Still, if we assume an English squadron taking part in the battle of Midway ( i.e. a CV + the Prince of Wales and Repulse ), it might have emboldened the Allies to keep attacking after destroying the japanese CVs - and so bump against the Japanese battleships, which could have reversed the battle's results…  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 10, 2019 15:17:11 GMT
IIRC when the Repulse and the Prince of Wales were sent to Malaya, a CV had been scheduled to be sent along but ran aground in Jamaica. Lacking air cover, the battleship and battlecruiser were easily sunk. We may hypothesize that they would not have been had the CV been with them. So they might conceivably have played havoc with the Japanese transports and slowed down or possibly stemmed the invasion of Malaya. It is with such a background ( with possibly Burma not lost, Singapore still holding out etc ) that we may place that CV's posisble implication at Midway. Personnally I believe the British would have had their hands full and could not have spared such a key element of their defense. Still, if we assume an English squadron taking part in the battle of Midway ( i.e. a CV + the Prince of Wales and Repulse ), it might have emboldened the Allies to keep attacking after destroying the japanese CVs - and so bump against the Japanese battleships, which could have reversed the battle's results… Still the Prince of Wales and Repulse even if they mange to reach Singapore, will be hunted down by some major Japanese surface assets, thus i doubt we will see them at Midway. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 10, 2019 18:45:46 GMT
IIRC when the Repulse and the Prince of Wales were sent to Malaya, a CV had been scheduled to be sent along but ran aground in Jamaica. Lacking air cover, the battleship and battlecruiser were easily sunk. We may hypothesize that they would not have been had the CV been with them. So they might conceivably have played havoc with the Japanese transports and slowed down or possibly stemmed the invasion of Malaya. It is with such a background ( with possibly Burma not lost, Singapore still holding out etc ) that we may place that CV's posisble implication at Midway. Personnally I believe the British would have had their hands full and could not have spared such a key element of their defense. Still, if we assume an English squadron taking part in the battle of Midway ( i.e. a CV + the Prince of Wales and Repulse ), it might have emboldened the Allies to keep attacking after destroying the japanese CVs - and so bump against the Japanese battleships, which could have reversed the battle's results…
The CV was HMS_Indomitable but it was still working up at that time and wasn't due to join force Z until the following spring I believe. If such a ship had been there a lot would have depended on the details. The Japanese bombers attacked without fighter cover so even the relatively small CAP the FAA could produce might well have been effective. Especially if it meant that PoW didn't suffer the early torpedo hit that along with apparently a serious error in restarting a damaged propeller shaft crippled the ship. However if the Japanese had known the presence of a carrier they might have sent an escort along, although it would have been pretty long range even for a Zero. Another possible butterfly is that Force Z nearly encountered a large IJN cover force for their invasion of Malaya and with Indomitable present then you might have seen an earlier clash of surface forces.
Its likely that if Force Z had had a carrier with them and survived it wouldn't have had a serious impact on the rest of the campaign as the landings in Malaya and Thailand had already occurred and a large chunk of the IJN later took part in the invasion of Java which along with the sort of long ranged land based a/c that OTL killed force Z would have overwhelmed the defenders.
In terms of any British involvement at Midway, if somehow it happened they and the USN would have avoided the large Japanese surface force like the plague. At least in terms of getting into gun range. Given allied superiority in radar and also intelligence information as we were reading Japanese codes the Japanese surface forces might well get bomb and torpedo attacks, albeit possibly not too destructive at this point, avoided a gun battle should be pretty easy.
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Post by ashimbabbar on Oct 12, 2019 14:04:23 GMT
Then again, if the Japanese had realized the UK squadron was sailing to help the uS Navy, they would logically have changed their plans.
Thye might have waited until the Shokaku and Zuikaku were ready and/or they might have adopted a much more sensible deployment like the one suggested by admiral Yamaguchi Tamon - two squadrons of 3 CVs mixed with the battleships.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 13, 2019 10:11:45 GMT
Then again, if the Japanese had realized the UK squadron was sailing to help the uS Navy, they would logically have changed their plans. Thye might have waited until the Shokaku and Zuikaku were ready and/or they might have adopted a much more sensible deployment like the one suggested by admiral Yamaguchi Tamon - two squadrons of 3 CVs mixed with the battleships.
Very true if they had known, although given how far the RN would have had to travel that could be likely. Simply having the fleet combined so that attacking a/c would have had to penetrate a much deeper AA defence which could have made a difference.
Or simply with Shokaku and Zuikaku one had had its aircrew seriously reduced and the other was damaged. If they had switched a/c to the undamaged one they could have had another experienced CV at Midway anyway but that seems to have conflicted with their doctrine so they did. On such things.
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