stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 26, 2023 10:52:54 GMT
On today's USCW thread the post has a map from Harper's Weekly displaying the Confederate states. Given that this is some way off what actually happened is it worthwhile having a note in the post to this effect? I know a fair number of us will know of the actual historical Confederacy but it could mislead a few people.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 26, 2023 11:07:07 GMT
On today's USCW thread the post has a map from Harper's Weekly displaying the Confederate states. Given that this is some way off what actually happened is it worthwhile having a note in the post to this effect? I know a fair number of us will know of the actual historical Confederacy but it could mislead a few people. Steve
Well this is a map i found on the Wikipedia, but i will edit it to reflect to say the white are the states that have succeeded and the states loyal to the United States are the once in gray.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 26, 2023 11:22:17 GMT
On today's USCW thread the post has a map from Harper's Weekly displaying the Confederate states. Given that this is some way off what actually happened is it worthwhile having a note in the post to this effect? I know a fair number of us will know of the actual historical Confederacy but it could mislead a few people. Steve
Well this is a map i found on the Wikipedia, but i will edit it to reflect to say the white are the states that have succeeded and the states loyal to the United States are the once in gray.
Not sure you got my meaning? A lot of the white states didn't end up seceding, such as Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. Virginia saw what became West Virginia break off to stay in the union and a number of the others saw a fair amount of pro-union support. As such its distinctly inaccurate in terms of what happened in the actual later war. I know it might be what the author of the article suspected might happen but it didn't prove to be the case.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 26, 2023 11:33:22 GMT
Well this is a map i found on the Wikipedia, but i will edit it to reflect to say the white are the states that have succeeded and the states loyal to the United States are the once in gray. Not sure you got my meaning? A lot of the white states didn't end up seceding, such as Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. Virginia saw what became West Virginia break off to stay in the union and a number of the others saw a fair amount of pro-union support. As such its distinctly inaccurate in terms of what happened in the actual later war. I know it might be what the author of the article suspected might happen but it didn't prove to be the case. A that, well this map was made in a period where many believe those states would also seceding from the United States. Will edit to refecht it is the author ore the person who created that map assumption in February 1861.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Feb 26, 2023 14:21:30 GMT
Not sure you got my meaning? A lot of the white states didn't end up seceding, such as Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. Virginia saw what became West Virginia break off to stay in the union and a number of the others saw a fair amount of pro-union support. As such its distinctly inaccurate in terms of what happened in the actual later war. I know it might be what the author of the article suspected might happen but it didn't prove to be the case. A that, well this map was made in a period where many believe those states would also seceding from the United States. Will edit to refecht it is the author ore the person who created that map assumption in February 1861. Events leading up to the United States Civil War, February 26th 1861District of Columbia(United States) President-elect Abraham Lincoln makes an unprecedented informal visit to both Houses of Congress together with William H. Seward, his secretary of state-designate. In the Senate, the president-elect was well received by not only fellow Republicans but Pro-United States Democrats such as United States Senator from Illinois, Stephen A. Douglas and United States Senator from Tennessee, Andrew Johnson. Then they went to the House of Representatives, where Lincoln had served one term 12 years prior. The speaker halted proceedings as the congressmen lined up to meet him and spectators in the galleries strained to see him. AlabamaThe Provisional Congress of the Confederate States authorised the creation of staff and administrative bureau for the Confederate Army. TexasCamp Colorado was abandoned by United States forces led by United States Army, Major Edmund Kirby Smith (2nd US Cavalry). New YorkHarper's Weekly map of February 26th 1861
(Note: this is a map that shows what Harper's Weekly assumed that the Confederate States would look like, as of February 26th 1861 ore in the future)
The Harper's Weekly is fairly accurate. The Union had to fight for every inch of that ground and that includes Delaware, where riots and civil insurrection occurred. What the map actually does not show accurately is the secessionist regions in eastern Kansas, and the rebels present in the Arizona and New Mexico territories.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 27, 2023 9:07:57 GMT
A that, well this map was made in a period where many believe those states would also seceding from the United States. Will edit to refecht it is the author ore the person who created that map assumption in February 1861. Events leading up to the United States Civil War, February 26th 1861District of Columbia(United States) President-elect Abraham Lincoln makes an unprecedented informal visit to both Houses of Congress together with William H. Seward, his secretary of state-designate. In the Senate, the president-elect was well received by not only fellow Republicans but Pro-United States Democrats such as United States Senator from Illinois, Stephen A. Douglas and United States Senator from Tennessee, Andrew Johnson. Then they went to the House of Representatives, where Lincoln had served one term 12 years prior. The speaker halted proceedings as the congressmen lined up to meet him and spectators in the galleries strained to see him. AlabamaThe Provisional Congress of the Confederate States authorised the creation of staff and administrative bureau for the Confederate Army. TexasCamp Colorado was abandoned by United States forces led by United States Army, Major Edmund Kirby Smith (2nd US Cavalry). New YorkHarper's Weekly map of February 26th 1861
(Note: this is a map that shows what Harper's Weekly assumed that the Confederate States would look like, as of February 26th 1861 ore in the future)
The Harper's Weekly is fairly accurate. The Union had to fight for every inch of that ground and that includes Delaware, where riots and civil insurrection occurred. What the map actually does not show accurately is the secessionist regions in eastern Kansas, and the rebels present in the Arizona and New Mexico territories.
Not really. There was unrest in Maryland but that was fairly quickly suppressed. Kentucky sought to be neutral for a while but the south made the mistake of breaching that neutrality and the country swung into supporting the union fairly overwhelmingly. Similarly there was the secession of West Virginia from Virginia which happened pretty quickly. There was pro-union factions in other states, quickly controlling much of Missouri as well.
There was a brief entry by a force from Texas into the Arizona/New Mexico territory which was very thinly populated at the time with support for both sides there but it was quickly forced to withdraw. Similarly there was some signs of support for the south in California but again this was quickly suppressed.
There was support for the southern cause in some parts of the north including Kansas, which had long been a source of conflict between slaver and free-soil camps - hence the term of bloody Kansas referring to the preceding years when the two factions had been struggling for domination here.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 28, 2023 4:12:41 GMT
I just discovered something even my trolls missed, February 28th skips to March 1st, except for February 28th 1944 which goes first to February 29th 1944.
So in order to keep up with the date, i think i need to post two regular updates on March 1st, one for February 29th and March 1st for the World War II Real Time project.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 28, 2023 11:41:29 GMT
I just discovered something even my trolls missed, February 28th skips to March 1st, except for February 28th 1944 which goes first to February 29th 1944. So in order to keep up with the date, i think i need to post two regular updates on March 1st, one for February 29th and March 1st for the World War II Real Time project.
Oops! Sorry I didn't pick that up myself. Its a problem if your not in the same 4 year cycle as the sources so that 29th Feb occurs in the year your posting and also for the year your reporting.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 28, 2023 14:38:30 GMT
I just discovered something even my trolls missed, February 28th skips to March 1st, except for February 28th 1944 which goes first to February 29th 1944. So in order to keep up with the date, i think i need to post two regular updates on March 1st, one for February 29th and March 1st for the World War II Real Time project. Oops! Sorry I didn't pick that up myself. Its a problem if your not in the same 4 year cycle as the sources so that 29th Feb occurs in the year your posting and also for the year your reporting. Well if it happen this year as well it would be no problem, the other two Real Time projects seems not to have a leap day.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 4, 2023 16:59:36 GMT
The Harper's Weekly is fairly accurate. The Union had to fight for every inch of that ground and that includes Delaware, where riots and civil insurrection occurred. What the map actually does not show accurately is the secessionist regions in eastern Kansas, and the rebels present in the Arizona and New Mexico territories.
Not really. There was unrest in Maryland but that was fairly quickly suppressed. Kentucky sought to be neutral for a while but the south made the mistake of breaching that neutrality and the country swung into supporting the union fairly overwhelmingly. Similarly there was the secession of West Virginia from Virginia which happened pretty quickly. There was pro-union factions in other states, quickly controlling much of Missouri as well.
There was a brief entry by a force from Texas into the Arizona/New Mexico territory which was very thinly populated at the time with support for both sides there but it was quickly forced to withdraw. Similarly there was some signs of support for the south in California but again this was quickly suppressed.
There was support for the southern cause in some parts of the north including Kansas, which had long been a source of conflict between slaver and free-soil camps - hence the term of bloody Kansas referring to the preceding years when the two factions had been struggling for domination here.
Harpers Weekly operating with the knowledge they had, were amazingly accurate. PM.
BTW, since you have not taken Texas history and I HAVE, I suggest this source; book.
It is an eye-popper.
Postscript:
Postscript 1. The Confederates were after the New Mexico copper and silver mines and the Colorado gold fields.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2023 15:00:40 GMT
On today's post in the WWI thread, comment about the status of the civilian population in Germany
I would say that the big problem with so many horses being drafted would be the loss of their labour since I doubt few farms would have tractors or other such equipment in this period. There would be a lost manure issue, although at least until fodder shortages meant their numbers were cut as well there would be other animals available on many farms to supply manure. Also given the large scale development of the Haber-Bosch process artificial fertilizers should be available even if the vast bulk of the nitrates generated went to armaments production.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2023 15:16:55 GMT
Not really. There was unrest in Maryland but that was fairly quickly suppressed. Kentucky sought to be neutral for a while but the south made the mistake of breaching that neutrality and the country swung into supporting the union fairly overwhelmingly. Similarly there was the secession of West Virginia from Virginia which happened pretty quickly. There was pro-union factions in other states, quickly controlling much of Missouri as well.
There was a brief entry by a force from Texas into the Arizona/New Mexico territory which was very thinly populated at the time with support for both sides there but it was quickly forced to withdraw. Similarly there was some signs of support for the south in California but again this was quickly suppressed.
There was support for the southern cause in some parts of the north including Kansas, which had long been a source of conflict between slaver and free-soil camps - hence the term of bloody Kansas referring to the preceding years when the two factions had been struggling for domination here.
Harpers Weekly operating with the knowledge they had, were amazingly accurate. PM.
BTW, since you have not taken Texas history and I HAVE, I suggest this source; book.
It is an eye-popper.
Postscript:
Postscript 1. The Confederates were after the New Mexico copper and silver mines and the Colorado gold fields.
The Confederates were after quite a lot, including dreams of linking up with supporters in southern California and forming a break-away state there giving a Pacific coastline and route for a southern railway to the Pacific which was probably the primary aim of the mission. However as in so many things their aims considerably exceeded their actual reach.
Had some knowledge of the Indian involvement in both sides during the civil war with as the book says the heaviest involvement being in the 'Indian Territory' as so many had been exiled to there. Interesting bit about Ely Parker making it to brigadier general rank.
However the basis facts I mentioned in my last post are still accurate. If the Harper's Weekly prediction had been correct then obviously the union would have lost Washington and its government been forced to withdraw to somewhere further north. Similarly it would have been a much harder fight in the 'western' theater' - which meant largely the region east of the Mississippi and west of the Appalachians - if Kentucky had joined the confederacy as the southern defence would have been along the Ohio which would also have been closed to northern traffic. The Anaconda Plan would have been distinctly more difficult to carry out. Ditto if Missouri had been in the rebellion rather than divided between loyalists and rebels with the former having the key population centres.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 5, 2023 15:45:04 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2023 17:34:12 GMT
Washington was on the front line once Lincoln pushed Virginia into joining the rebel camp so of course it had to be garrisoned or lost. Not saying there wasn't a lot of pro-rebel feeling in much of Maryland but that never became the source of a threat to the capital. That it bordered Virginia was the overwhelming factor. You need to put down that spade rather than simply digging yourself in deeper.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2023 17:41:28 GMT
Can we keep discussion to current days ore past days, thank you.
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