stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 24, 2020 10:15:35 GMT
You seem to have a duplication in today's WWII post.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 24, 2020 13:58:05 GMT
You seem to have a duplication in today's WWII post.
Steve
Thanks, will edit and remove the double post.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 26, 2020 12:37:03 GMT
lordroel ,
In today's WWI post your included data for both the 26th and 27th.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 26, 2020 12:41:04 GMT
lordroel , In today's WWI post your included data for both the 26th and 27th.
Steve
A thanks, will edit it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 27, 2020 12:29:51 GMT
lordroel , Love the last item on the check-list on yesterday's WWII video. Think even Hitler might have considered Vladivostok a step too far - at least some of the time. Also Indies commentary on the encirclement in the south and whether or not it affected the attack on Moscow. Suspect he's probably right as trying to push exhausted forces further east more quickly is likely to fail plus what the Soviet forces might do to their exposed southern flank as he says.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 27, 2020 12:32:50 GMT
lordroel , Love the last item on the check-list on yesterday's WWII video. Think even Hitler might have considered Vladivostok a step too far - at least some of the time. Also Indies commentary on the encirclement in the south and whether or not it affected the attack on Moscow. Suspect he's probably right as trying to push exhausted forces further east more quickly is likely to fail plus what the Soviet forces might do to their exposed southern flank as he says. Steve
Sometimes you talk stevep if World War II as really happening in real time.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 30, 2020 16:39:15 GMT
On today's WWII post you have.
According to at least one version there was a significant flaw with this plan. The dogs were of course trained using Soviet tanks so when put into active use they tended to prefer Soviet armour to that of other nations. [Although how well a dog could tell between tanks of different armies, or even tanks of different types I don't know so this could be somewhat dubious. However its a good story of unintended consequences. ]
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 30, 2020 16:48:10 GMT
On today's WWII post you have.
According to at least one version there was a significant flaw with this plan. The dogs were of course trained using Soviet tanks so when put into active use they tended to prefer Soviet armour to that of other nations. [Although how well a dog could tell between tanks of different armies, or even tanks of different types I don't know so this could be somewhat dubious. However its a good story of unintended consequences. ] Steve
Here is a nice YouTube clip about it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2020 11:44:46 GMT
On today's WWII post you have:
I don't think this can be accurate as to have 616k dead most of those encircled would have had to have been killed, with only about 85k captured of the total. True given their barbarous treatment by the Germans - and than of the survivors by Stalin afterwards many won't have made it home but at this stage I think most were captured.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2020 11:51:14 GMT
On today's WWII post you have:
I don't think this can be accurate as to have 616k dead most of those encircled would have had to have been killed, with only about 85k captured of the total. True given their barbarous treatment by the Germans - and than of the survivors by Stalin afterwards many won't have made it home but at this stage I think most were captured. Steve
Well it is true according to the Wikipedia article: Battle of Kiev (1941)The battle was an unprecedented defeat for the Red Army, exceeding even the Battle of Białystok–Minsk of June–July 1941. The encirclement trapped 452,700 soldiers, 2,642 guns and mortars and 64 tanks, of which scarcely 15,000 had escaped from the encirclement by 2 October. The Southwestern Front suffered 700,544 casualties, including 616,304 killed, captured or missing during the battle.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2020 12:06:17 GMT
On today's WWII post you have:
I don't think this can be accurate as to have 616k dead most of those encircled would have had to have been killed, with only about 85k captured of the total. True given their barbarous treatment by the Germans - and than of the survivors by Stalin afterwards many won't have made it home but at this stage I think most were captured. Steve
Well it is true according to the Wikipedia article: Battle of Kiev (1941)The battle was an unprecedented defeat for the Red Army, exceeding even the Battle of Białystok–Minsk of June–July 1941. The encirclement trapped 452,700 soldiers, 2,642 guns and mortars and 64 tanks, of which scarcely 15,000 had escaped from the encirclement by 2 October. The Southwestern Front suffered 700,544 casualties, including 616,304 killed, captured or missing during the battle.
Ah that's a different thing. You were saying 616k killed, which didn't make sense. That number killed, captured or missing does fit with the details.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2020 12:09:37 GMT
Well it is true according to the Wikipedia article: Battle of Kiev (1941)The battle was an unprecedented defeat for the Red Army, exceeding even the Battle of Białystok–Minsk of June–July 1941. The encirclement trapped 452,700 soldiers, 2,642 guns and mortars and 64 tanks, of which scarcely 15,000 had escaped from the encirclement by 2 October. The Southwestern Front suffered 700,544 casualties, including 616,304 killed, captured or missing during the battle. Ah that's a different thing. You were saying 616k killed, which didn't make sense. That number killed, captured or missing does fit with the details.
Will add that what you Mark in the post then to clarify it better.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 8, 2020 7:25:21 GMT
Just a small quibble. On today's WWII post you have
Would it be better if the actual message at the bottom, which I assume is related to the phone call to Stalin, was immediately below it? Steve
Thanks i will edit the post.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 9, 2020 10:24:57 GMT
On today's WWII post you have.
There were massive encirclements of Soviet troops from Leningrad in the North to the Sea of Azov on the Black Sea, with the largest pockets in the middle around Bryansk and Vyasma. Coupled with the destruction of Soviet Southwestern Front around Kiev, these cauldron battles (Kesselschlacht) will result in 2 million unrecoverable Soviet losses. However, Stalin knows from his spy in Tokyo (Richard Sorge) that the Japanese have no plans to attack USSR and instead intend to expand South by moving on British and American interests. Stalin transfers troops from the Far East to protect Moscow. Stalin orders twelve divisions (1700 tanks, 1500 planes, 2,500,000 men) from eastern Siberia and Outer Mongolia to come to the defense of Moscow. Soviet reserves move into defensive positions on the direct approaches to Moscow. The Mozhaisk Defensive Line was still incomplete but Zhukov rushed troops into the line to block the gaps. Six rifle divisions, six armoured brigades, ten artillery regiments and machine-gun battalions. Rokossovsky and his men escaped the Vyazma pocket reached the headquarters of the Western Front. Zhukov ordered Rokossovsky to defend 100 odd km at the northern part of the Mozhaisk Defensive Line. There he began to form a new 16th Army from the remnants of Lukin’s old 16th Army, Lev Dovator’s Cossacks, the 316th Rifle Division, a regiment of cadets from the School of the Supreme Soviet, the remnants of the 18th (Leningrad) Volunteer Division, and some artillery and other supporting units. The 316th Rifle Division, under General Panfilov, was up to establishment, was well trained, and fully equipped. As soon as it entered the line it earned the respect of the Germans. 316th Rifle Division deployed on the left flank of 16th Army to the west and southwest of the small city of Volokolamsk. A howitzer battalion of cadets from the Krasin Artillery School in Moscow supported 16th Army’s Cossacks, 316th Rifle Division, and the cadet infantry. Although well trained the artillery cadets had never fired their weapons before they entered combat. They had artillery tractors for their guns but the tractors could go at most 8 km / hour. A detachment of Soviet NKVD troops prevented a company of German Brandenburg 800 Division saboteurs from destroying the Istra Water Reservoir near Moscow. General Artemev assumed command of a newly formed Moscow Reserve Front. Despite the reinforcements the Germans continued to advance. Kaluga, Borodino, Kalinin, Maloyaroslavers, and Mozhaisk fell. Elements of German 2.Panzerarmee began attacking toward Kursk. The 1st Guard Rifle Corp was committed at Mtsensk and temporarily stopped Guderian’s tanks from moving closer to Moscow. The Germans contained Russian attempts to breakout south of Bryansk.
I have read sources that suggest it was less the far east than western Siberia and Central Asia he drew the bulk of this wave of experienced troops from. Also while there might have been say 12 divisions of regulars the bulk of those ~2.5M new forces would have been new recruits, largely little more than militia initially because of their lack of training and equipment. They were however enough to hold and then defeat the Germans who were themselves approaching exhaustion given the long [for them] campaign and logistical overstretch].
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 13, 2020 11:02:34 GMT
On today's WWI thread I notice:
Its interesting that Falkenhayn notices this early the key lesson that a breakthrough is impossible with the current technology and force strengths. The only problem is that against a prepared and determined defence both sides suffer very heavily. Unfortunately it still takes a couple of years for Haig to accept this and a bit shorter time for the French although I think Foch already has some ideas.
Steve
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