stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 9, 2020 15:11:59 GMT
That plus disagreements over maritime boundaries in the Aegean in general. The rest of the NATO members will be in a awkward position if both Greece and Turkey demand they where attack and thus need help under Article 5.
Very true. I suspect there would be an attempt at mediation, which might get to the point of "cease-fire or else" to avoid too much chaos or the Soviets trying to get their oar in.
Know it was tension when Turkey invaded Cyprus and occupied the norther part of the island but think it was partly seen as justified to protect the Turkish minority there. Might have gone to a larger war if they has sought to occupy the entire island.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 9, 2020 16:05:24 GMT
The rest of the NATO members will be in a awkward position if both Greece and Turkey demand they where attack and thus need help under Article 5. Very true. I suspect there would be an attempt at mediation, which might get to the point of "cease-fire or else" to avoid too much chaos or the Soviets trying to get their oar in. Know it was tension when Turkey invaded Cyprus and occupied the norther part of the island but think it was partly seen as justified to protect the Turkish minority there. Might have gone to a larger war if they has sought to occupy the entire island.
I can assume the Soviet Union will do its best to take advantage to a Turkish-Greek War. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 9, 2020 21:20:27 GMT
'No Sexual Revolution'.
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Post by EwellHolmes on Feb 10, 2020 5:41:56 GMT
The explosion in divorce rates, fatherlessness and abortion incidences never occurs; the U.S. population as a result is larger and economically much more prosperous, with no crime wave of the 1970s-1990s. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 10, 2020 13:39:00 GMT
The explosion in divorce rates, fatherlessness and abortion incidences never occurs; the U.S. population as a result is larger and economically much more prosperous, with no crime wave of the 1970s-1990s. How much of that can be attributed to the Sexual Revolution, and how much to the questionable results of Great Society programs like the War on Poverty, though? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 10, 2020 16:48:45 GMT
You might need to decide why it doesn't happen as that would affect the results. For instance does the per-existing society make some decisions that would prevent the sexual revolution, either by providing some alternative or by repressing the early beginnings of it. Either route would prompt a considerably different result. Or say for some reason that the contraception pill isn't developed - although elements of the 'sexual revolution' were in place before then I think. Plus does the sexual revolution not occurring mean other social changes in the 60s and 70s not occurring, such as the development of teenager/youth culture, the moves for civil rights and racial, sexual, religious and other forms of equality?
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Post by EwellHolmes on Feb 10, 2020 17:43:32 GMT
The explosion in divorce rates, fatherlessness and abortion incidences never occurs; the U.S. population as a result is larger and economically much more prosperous, with no crime wave of the 1970s-1990s. How much of that can be attributed to the Sexual Revolution, and how much to the questionable results of Great Society programs like the War on Poverty, though? Sexual Revolution changed the view of women in society from being predominantly homemakers to working women, lessening the need for marriage and emphasizing career, thus delaying the onset of family creation. The loosening of divorce laws and abortion directly followed this trend. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 10, 2020 17:54:13 GMT
How much of that can be attributed to the Sexual Revolution, and how much to the questionable results of Great Society programs like the War on Poverty, though? Sexual Revolution changed the view of women in society from being predominantly homemakers to working women, lessening the need for marriage and emphasizing career, thus delaying the onset of family creation. The loosening of divorce laws and abortion directly followed this trend.
That's one aspect of it but there are others. That people could have sexual relations outside marriage for instance.
Also the bit above is something that has increased economic growth as its boosted both demand and capacity by bringing far more women in the workforce for longer. Which rather contradicts your previous predictions as to no sexual revolution.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 10, 2020 18:48:09 GMT
Sexual Revolution changed the view of women in society from being predominantly homemakers to working women, lessening the need for marriage and emphasizing career, thus delaying the onset of family creation. The loosening of divorce laws and abortion directly followed this trend.
That's one aspect of it but there are others. That people could have sexual relations outside marriage for instance.
Also the bit above is something that has increased economic growth as its boosted both demand and capacity by bringing far more women in the workforce for longer. Which rather contradicts your previous predictions as to no sexual revolution.
In addition to those points, I’d again like to raise the question of how much skyrocketing divorce rates, broken homes and other recent social ills can be attributed to the Sexual Revolution, and how much presumably well-intentioned legislation like LBJ’s War on Poverty is to blame for them rather than just the Sexual Revolution alone, due to the various incentives that government promoted, rather than the onset of the permissive society in of itself. As for how to prevent the Sexual Revolution from emerging, maybe the pill is either not invented or not made commercially available, at least until much later and at a point where it’s too late to instigate much social upheaval? |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Feb 11, 2020 4:45:03 GMT
Sexual Revolution changed the view of women in society from being predominantly homemakers to working women, lessening the need for marriage and emphasizing career, thus delaying the onset of family creation. The loosening of divorce laws and abortion directly followed this trend.
That's one aspect of it but there are others. That people could have sexual relations outside marriage for instance.
Also the bit above is something that has increased economic growth as its boosted both demand and capacity by bringing far more women in the workforce for longer. Which rather contradicts your previous predictions as to no sexual revolution.
Obviously infidelity has always existed and likely always will, at least to some extent, but I view that as a non-sequitur to the overall point here. Immediately following the Sexual Revolution, the 1970s and 1980s saw divorce rates absolutely explode. As for women, their wages increased to 60% the male average....but the male average has decreased by 25%; on the whole, it's likely been a net wash with lots of unintended side effects. Single mother homes tend to result in offspring with much higher rates of criminality, reduced economic prospects, higher likelihood of dropping out and higher rates of teen pregnancy. Finally, I think there is some confusion here about what the Sexual Revolution was, vis-a-vis women entering the workforce; they overlap, but are not the same or necessarily even intertwined. Sexual mores didn't suddenly collapse like they did in the 1960s during the Rosie the Riveter era, afterall. |
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insect
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Post by insect on Feb 11, 2020 5:51:46 GMT
No first iraq war.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 11, 2020 11:34:14 GMT
The Gulf War ore the Iraq-Iran War. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 11, 2020 11:37:16 GMT
The Gulf War ore the Iraq-Iran War. I think they’re referring to the first Gulf War, since extra clarification would be needed to specify that it’s the Iran-Iraq War if that was what they were referring to. For one thing concerning the ‘no Gulf War’ PoD, maybe Saddam Hussein never deploying his military into Kuwait to seize its oil would be a good starting point. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2020 12:50:10 GMT
That's one aspect of it but there are others. That people could have sexual relations outside marriage for instance.
Also the bit above is something that has increased economic growth as its boosted both demand and capacity by bringing far more women in the workforce for longer. Which rather contradicts your previous predictions as to no sexual revolution.
Obviously infidelity has always existed and likely always will, at least to some extent, but I view that as a non-sequitur to the overall point here. Immediately following the Sexual Revolution, the 1970s and 1980s saw divorce rates absolutely explode. As for women, their wages increased to 60% the male average....but the male average has decreased by 25%; on the whole, it's likely been a net wash with lots of unintended side effects. Single mother homes tend to result in offspring with much higher rates of criminality, reduced economic prospects, higher likelihood of dropping out and higher rates of teen pregnancy. Finally, I think there is some confusion here about what the Sexual Revolution was, vis-a-vis women entering the workforce; they overlap, but are not the same or necessarily even intertwined. Sexual mores didn't suddenly collapse like they did in the 1960s during the Rosie the Riveter era, afterall.
That's less a question of changes in sexual values than in social values. Most divorces were more because the couple found they were no longer forced by social convention than any issue of greater than previous infidelity. Women gained greater equality and the economic changes than enabled them to have an independent live played a part as well.
Yes single parent families are under greater social pressure, especially in more recent decades as in the Anglo-sphere at least views have become more conservative and social services have been reduced. I was lucky that when I was a child there was a lot more social flexibility and support for such families. A lot of the problems in Britain at least, are more do to the attack on social structures and identities since 79 by Thatcher and her successors.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 11, 2020 12:54:44 GMT
That's one aspect of it but there are others. That people could have sexual relations outside marriage for instance.
Also the bit above is something that has increased economic growth as its boosted both demand and capacity by bringing far more women in the workforce for longer. Which rather contradicts your previous predictions as to no sexual revolution.
In addition to those points, I’d again like to raise the question of how much skyrocketing divorce rates, broken homes and other recent social ills can be attributed to the Sexual Revolution, and how much presumably well-intentioned legislation like LBJ’s War on Poverty is to blame for them rather than just the Sexual Revolution alone, due to the various incentives that government promoted, rather than the onset of the permissive society in of itself. As for how to prevent the Sexual Revolution from emerging, maybe the pill is either not invented or not made commercially available, at least until much later and at a point where it’s too late to instigate much social upheaval?
On the 1st part see my reply to eh. 
On the 2nd the pill probably speeded things up a bit but I suspect social developments including the greater social and economic equality played a part as well. As such without the pill greater sexual activity will be more restrained but it and the other changes are still likely to occur. After all there were other ways of providing protection against pregnancy. Similarly if antibiotics are less developed that would also have some impact on sexual activity because there would be more fear of STDs.
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