stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856 
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2019 16:12:00 GMT
There is actually a TL I read once that achieves this and more virtually as a bi-product of the Trent Crisis ending in war between Britain and the union. This sees the north forced to sue for peace in the autumn of 1862. As part of the negotiations delegates are called for from assorted neutral powers and the US ask for one from Prussia. At this stage Prussia is in a constitutional crisis with the king and conservative elements contesting with a liberal parliament over the king's desire for big increases in military spending and greatly reducing the power of Parliament to restrain the army. It was at the point when the king was even threatening to abdicate. OTL Bismarck manages to negotiate a deal which gives the king and the conservatives the power he desires and the rest is OTL history.
Here a frustrated king, given the request for a Prussian representative at the peace conference a frustrated king turns to the person currently with him, just returning from a short spell as ambassador in Paris, and basically says "you will do". Hence a rather unhappy Bismarck suddenly finds himself reading up on the situation in the US as he prepares for a trip across the Atlantic. The TL didn't go past the ending of the peace settlement in N America but the implication was that the Prussian king would probably resign and you have a markedly more liberal Prussia as a result. Which would likely change a lot about future developments in Europe although I suspect you might well see Germany, or at least its northern parts unified in some way under Prussian leadership.
Interesting, I wonder if that TL you’ve brought up might still be on the Web somewhere. Would you say that a no-Bismarck history would be for better or worse overall, or is it not that simple? I’m none too knowledgeable about 19th Century Europe, hence my inquiry.
Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 21, 2019 16:24:57 GMT
Interesting, I wonder if that TL you’ve brought up might still be on the Web somewhere. Would you say that a no-Bismarck history would be for better or worse overall, or is it not that simple? I’m none too knowledgeable about 19th Century Europe, hence my inquiry. Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name. There was also BURNISHED ROWS OF STEEL: The Great North American War, 1861-, but that has also not been updated in a long time. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2019 17:40:25 GMT
Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name. There was also BURNISHED ROWS OF STEEL: The Great North American War, 1861-, but that has also not been updated in a long time.
That is very much a yankwank from what I remember. Think its authour has also been banned. A hell of a lot of people have suffered that fate.  |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 21, 2019 18:02:13 GMT
Interesting, I wonder if that TL you’ve brought up might still be on the Web somewhere. Would you say that a no-Bismarck history would be for better or worse overall, or is it not that simple? I’m none too knowledgeable about 19th Century Europe, hence my inquiry.
Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name.
Zyobot
Got a reply back from Saphroneth and it was on AH and was called "If They Will Not Meet Us On The Open Sea". This link may work, if-they-will-not-meet-us-on-the-open-sea, but be warned its 124 AH pages long, which is some length. I actually found that and looked at the tail end but didn't see that bit so obviously missed the relevant part. Its a very quick war and not sure if the Us would agree to lose that much that quickly but the background does show how bad the odds were for the US in a war with Britain while also fighting the Confederacy.
Steve
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,431
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 21, 2019 18:06:25 GMT
Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name. Zyobot Got a reply back from Saphroneth and it was on AH and was called "If They Will Not Meet Us On The Open Sea". This link may work, if-they-will-not-meet-us-on-the-open-sea, but be warned its 124 AH pages long, which is some length. I actually found that and looked at the tail end but didn't see that bit so obviously missed the relevant part. Its a very quick war and not sure if the Us would agree to lose that much that quickly but the background does show how bad the odds were for the US in a war with Britain while also fighting the Confederacy. Steve
Thanks for the link stevep, will check it out. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 22, 2019 12:14:24 GMT
‘More Industrialized Ante Bellum South’.
|
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on Oct 23, 2019 14:52:31 GMT
Actually having Eleanor of Aquitaine remaining married to Louis VII.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 23, 2019 15:52:42 GMT
Actually having Eleanor of Aquitaine remaining married to Louis VII.
That might butterfly the entire Hundred Years war. Although a lot might depend on who Henry II marries and how his children come out. If their not as rebellious as OTL he was a bloody tough character and could end up winning against even a France boosted by Aquitaine. Might you that might be a longer term issue.
Could also be interested how a very powerful woman like Eleanor affects Louis VII, who seems to have been fairly mild shall we say. Does she become effectively the power behind the throne or cause resentment in the court at this 'headstrong' woman. Does he end up with the sons repeatedly in conflict with him? You could end up with a much stronger France or one that fragments even more than OTL.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 23, 2019 23:31:42 GMT
Well on a US Civil war site, Trent War TL, a user Saphroneth has a TL on a Trent war which unfortunately has stalled in recent months. Pretty certain it was somewhere in that but someone mentioned he had an earlier version of the TL, think it was on AH. This was the one I mentioned. Spent some time looking but can't find it. Saphroneth was banned from AH so searching doesn't show up his threads, although a search on "Trent War" finds a number of quotes by him - and me! - on assorted threads on the topic. He does post on other sites. I will drop a line on the USCW site to ask him where the TL was and its name.
Zyobot
Got a reply back from Saphroneth and it was on AH and was called "If They Will Not Meet Us On The Open Sea". This link may work, if-they-will-not-meet-us-on-the-open-sea, but be warned its 124 AH pages long, which is some length. I actually found that and looked at the tail end but didn't see that bit so obviously missed the relevant part. Its a very quick war and not sure if the Us would agree to lose that much that quickly but the background does show how bad the odds were for the US in a war with Britain while also fighting the Confederacy.
Steve
Guys
If anyone's interested I've been rereading the Saphroneth TL and the bit with Bismarck being rerouted to a peace negotiation is on page 33. Quite early in the thread which goes up to ~124 pages but I think most of the 2nd half is related to plans for a new version and assorted discussions.
For those who are interested there is also a very important effect in that the UK gets as part of the peace agreement the right to search US ships for slaves, as part of its attempts to stamp out the slave trade. Which turns out to have unpleasant results for one of the signatories - but not the union. 
Steve
|
|
kasumigenx
Lieutenant Commander
Posts: 818
Likes: 258
|
Post by kasumigenx on Oct 24, 2019 16:23:18 GMT
Actually having Eleanor of Aquitaine remaining married to Louis VII.
That might butterfly the entire Hundred Years war. Although a lot might depend on who Henry II marries and how his children come out. If their not as rebellious as OTL he was a bloody tough character and could end up winning against even a France boosted by Aquitaine. Might you that might be a longer term issue.
Could also be interested how a very powerful woman like Eleanor affects Louis VII, who seems to have been fairly mild shall we say. Does she become effectively the power behind the throne or cause resentment in the court at this 'headstrong' woman. Does he end up with the sons repeatedly in conflict with him? You could end up with a much stronger France or one that fragments even more than OTL.
Her grand daughter, Blanche could be a model of how a successful marriage of Louis VII and Eleanor could be like, I remember, Eleanor and Henry II could still have a rumored affair ala Blanche and her cousin Theobald.. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 26, 2019 2:55:00 GMT
‘Marco Polo Never Visits China’.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 27, 2019 11:52:51 GMT
‘No IP Laws’, meaning that landmark legislation like the Statutes of Anne and Monopolies don’t manifest. In keeping with the 1000 to 1900 A.D. timeframe of this thread, however, ancient and early medieval instances of what one could call IP protection would still have happened (of which there is likely at least a few, statistically speaking).
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 28, 2019 20:25:30 GMT
'John Adams Remains Loyal To Great Britain', instead of becoming the American Founding Father that he ended his days as IOTL.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,856
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Oct 29, 2019 13:44:10 GMT
'John Adams Remains Loyal To Great Britain', instead of becoming the American Founding Father that he ended his days as IOTL.
Might depend on how that comes about and what happens to him. Looking at his wiki entry and from what I've read before.
Possibly when he defends the British soldiers charged after the so called Boston Massacre this adjusts his stance. As I understand it he was a supporter of independence or at least greatly restricting British power in the colonies but viewed the charging of the soldiers, who by some reports had only fired on riots after a prolonged period of attack by them and when their officer judged their life was at risk and feared that a conviction by a kangaroo court - although obviously that terms wasn't used at the time - would alienate too many loyalists and moderates from the rebels. It might be that he gets say insults and threats to his life/family and that alienates him from the radicals. Possibly even there is an attack on his family? Anyway as the violence gets worse he decides that continued British rule is the lesser of the two evils?
Alternatively reading his wiki article he was a moderate until ~1772 when the British government started to pay the salary of the governor and judges rather than the colonial assembly. [Not sure why this is. Was there a refusal to pay by the assembly?] Possibly something in this period something happens to change this?
By 1773 he was a fairly hard line radical as he strongly supported the attack on the Dartmouth in the so called Boston Tea Party. Despite this being a clear breach in the law with no reason other than sheer vandalism. Unless you agree with sources that suggest it was organised by smugglers who feared that such tea, even with the tax paid on it would be cheaper than what they charged for their products? By this time I think its unlikely he would switch sides and become a loyalist.
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 30, 2019 21:08:57 GMT
'Successful 1825 Decembrist Revolt'.
|
|
