genyodectes
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Post by genyodectes on Jul 26, 2019 15:16:47 GMT
1. The Civilization of Malta becomes a massive seafaring empire, holding much of the coasts of the ancient world.
2. Astyages defeats Cyrus the Great, halting the expansion of the persian empire.
3. Lydia is able to gain freedom from Persia and take much of anatolia
4. Sparta is able to build a small empire in the aftermath of a much worse for wear Athens following the Greco-Persian Wars.
5. The Romans place a greek auxiliary on the throne of the Seleucid Empire and he goes about reviving one of the two remaining successor kingdoms of Alexander left.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 26, 2019 15:21:41 GMT
1. The Civilization of Malta becomes a massive seafaring empire, holding much of the coasts of the ancient world. Like idea 1 but wonder if Malta has to population to become a empire. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 26, 2019 17:38:37 GMT
1. The Civilization of Malta becomes a massive seafaring empire, holding much of the coasts of the ancient world. 2. Astyages defeats Cyrus the Great, halting the expansion of the persian empire. 3. Lydia is able to gain freedom from Persia and take much of anatolia 4. Sparta is able to build a small empire in the aftermath of a much worse for wear Athens following the Greco-Persian Wars. 5. The Romans place a greek auxiliary on the throne of the Seleucid Empire and he goes about reviving one of the two remaining successor kingdoms of Alexander left.
1) Interesting but as Lordroel says it doesn't really have the resources to become a great empire. It might form the seed of one but as it expanded then say Sicily and then possibly later somewhere else would be likely to be the capital of power.
2) If the Medes defeat the Persian rebellion does it mean neither become a super-power - with Media, Lydia, Babylon and Egypt in continued competition? Or do the Medes then go on a conquest spree as Cyrus and his heirs did OTL?
3) Do you mean gains freedom, which implies its conquered, or that if defeats Cyrus in the war and Croesus expands his empire further. Wonder if rather than expanding into eastern Anatolia as most of that is fairly thinly settled he might end up looking west and possibly seeking to dominate the rest of Greece as he already has the wealthy Greek city states of Ionnia under his control. Which might work or end up with Greek-Lydian wars rather than OTL Greek-Persian wars, with the Greeks winning?
4) It would probably need some fairly drastic changes in Sparta for it to maintain its dominance of Greece, let along expand given the declining numbers of the actual Spartans.
5) This would be interesting but apart from the problems of reviving the Selucids from such a relatively small base as soon as he looked like succeeding Rome is likely to come down on him like a ton of bricks.
Would be interested in seeing any of the above but possibly 2 or 3 might be the most interesting. Especially since either could produce huge butterflies, such as the rise of Greece/Macedonia and then possibly Rome. Not sure how likely that some sort of mega empire doesn't emerge in the ME I don't know.
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genyodectes
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Post by genyodectes on Jul 26, 2019 17:45:20 GMT
1. The Civilization of Malta becomes a massive seafaring empire, holding much of the coasts of the ancient world. 2. Astyages defeats Cyrus the Great, halting the expansion of the persian empire. 3. Lydia is able to gain freedom from Persia and take much of anatolia 4. Sparta is able to build a small empire in the aftermath of a much worse for wear Athens following the Greco-Persian Wars. 5. The Romans place a greek auxiliary on the throne of the Seleucid Empire and he goes about reviving one of the two remaining successor kingdoms of Alexander left.
1) Interesting but as Lordroel says it doesn't really have the resources to become a great empire. It might form the seed of one but as it expanded then say Sicily and then possibly later somewhere else would be likely to be the capital of power.
2) If the Medes defeat the Persian rebellion does it mean neither become a super-power - with Media, Lydia, Babylon and Egypt in continued competition? Or do the Medes then go on a conquest spree as Cyrus and his heirs did OTL?
3) Do you mean gains freedom, which implies its conquered, or that if defeats Cyrus in the war and Croesus expands his empire further. Wonder if rather than expanding into eastern Anatolia as most of that is fairly thinly settled he might end up looking west and possibly seeking to dominate the rest of Greece as he already has the wealthy Greek city states of Ionnia under his control. Which might work or end up with Greek-Lydian wars rather than OTL Greek-Persian wars, with the Greeks winning?
4) It would probably need some fairly drastic changes in Sparta for it to maintain its dominance of Greece, let along expand given the declining numbers of the actual Spartans.
5) This would be interesting but apart from the problems of reviving the Selucids from such a relatively small base as soon as he looked like succeeding Rome is likely to come down on him like a ton of bricks.
Would be interested in seeing any of the above but possibly 2 or 3 might be the most interesting. Especially since either could produce huge butterflies, such as the rise of Greece/Macedonia and then possibly Rome. Not sure how likely that some sort of mega empire doesn't emerge in the ME I don't know.
Apologies, for three, I meant the Ionian Revolt which led to the Greco-Persian Wars and for 4, I meant as in a micro Empire of SParta holding Greece, Macedonia, and Epirus. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 26, 2019 17:50:09 GMT
1) Interesting but as Lordroel says it doesn't really have the resources to become a great empire. It might form the seed of one but as it expanded then say Sicily and then possibly later somewhere else would be likely to be the capital of power. 2) If the Medes defeat the Persian rebellion does it mean neither become a super-power - with Media, Lydia, Babylon and Egypt in continued competition? Or do the Medes then go on a conquest spree as Cyrus and his heirs did OTL? 3) Do you mean gains freedom, which implies its conquered, or that if defeats Cyrus in the war and Croesus expands his empire further. Wonder if rather than expanding into eastern Anatolia as most of that is fairly thinly settled he might end up looking west and possibly seeking to dominate the rest of Greece as he already has the wealthy Greek city states of Ionnia under his control. Which might work or end up with Greek-Lydian wars rather than OTL Greek-Persian wars, with the Greeks winning? 4) It would probably need some fairly drastic changes in Sparta for it to maintain its dominance of Greece, let along expand given the declining numbers of the actual Spartans. 5) This would be interesting but apart from the problems of reviving the Selucids from such a relatively small base as soon as he looked like succeeding Rome is likely to come down on him like a ton of bricks. Would be interested in seeing any of the above but possibly 2 or 3 might be the most interesting. Especially since either could produce huge butterflies, such as the rise of Greece/Macedonia and then possibly Rome. Not sure how likely that some sort of mega empire doesn't emerge in the ME I don't know.
Apologies, for three, I meant the Ionian Revolt which led to the Greco-Persian Wars and for 4, I meant as in a micro Empire of SParta holding Greece, Macedonia, and Epirus. Would be fascinating to see a Malta Empire holding Sicily and parts of Tunisia. But it needs to keep itself independent from Carthage to do that and also later from Rome. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 26, 2019 17:53:54 GMT
1) Interesting but as Lordroel says it doesn't really have the resources to become a great empire. It might form the seed of one but as it expanded then say Sicily and then possibly later somewhere else would be likely to be the capital of power.
2) If the Medes defeat the Persian rebellion does it mean neither become a super-power - with Media, Lydia, Babylon and Egypt in continued competition? Or do the Medes then go on a conquest spree as Cyrus and his heirs did OTL?
3) Do you mean gains freedom, which implies its conquered, or that if defeats Cyrus in the war and Croesus expands his empire further. Wonder if rather than expanding into eastern Anatolia as most of that is fairly thinly settled he might end up looking west and possibly seeking to dominate the rest of Greece as he already has the wealthy Greek city states of Ionnia under his control. Which might work or end up with Greek-Lydian wars rather than OTL Greek-Persian wars, with the Greeks winning?
4) It would probably need some fairly drastic changes in Sparta for it to maintain its dominance of Greece, let along expand given the declining numbers of the actual Spartans.
5) This would be interesting but apart from the problems of reviving the Selucids from such a relatively small base as soon as he looked like succeeding Rome is likely to come down on him like a ton of bricks.
Would be interested in seeing any of the above but possibly 2 or 3 might be the most interesting. Especially since either could produce huge butterflies, such as the rise of Greece/Macedonia and then possibly Rome. Not sure how likely that some sort of mega empire doesn't emerge in the ME I don't know.
Apologies, for three, I meant the Ionian Revolt which led to the Greco-Persian Wars and for 4, I meant as in a micro Empire of SParta holding Greece, Macedonia, and Epirus.
Ah so 3 is more a successful Ionian revolt which would raise interesting questions as to how things develop afterwards. Does one dominant Greece state emerge, probably in Ionia which ends up dominating the region as otherwise, barring a pretty total Persian collapse I can't see them keeping Persia out for long with the resources the latter has. I've just voted for 3 thinking it was a successful Lydia but this could also be quite interesting.
For 4 you would still need some social change in Sparta for even a medium sized empire like that. Possibly not a drastic change in the system that drops Sparta's distinct social system but something that stops a small aristocracy increasing controlling the land and the number of Spartan warriors steadily decreasing. Possibly some land reform plus the system being expanded into new lands with effectively Spartan 'colonisation' of other Greek areas although that is likely to mean a hell of a lot of fighting as it effectively would reduce those other Greeks to helot status.
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genyodectes
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Post by genyodectes on Jul 26, 2019 18:01:07 GMT
Apologies, for three, I meant the Ionian Revolt which led to the Greco-Persian Wars and for 4, I meant as in a micro Empire of SParta holding Greece, Macedonia, and Epirus. Would be fascinating to see a Malta Empire holding Sicily and parts of Tunisia. But it needs to keep itself independent from Carthage to do that and also later from Rome. Considering it be from the neolithic peoples, i think it would itself start long before Carthage or Rome got off the ground. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 26, 2019 20:34:43 GMT
Would be fascinating to see a Malta Empire holding Sicily and parts of Tunisia. But it needs to keep itself independent from Carthage to do that and also later from Rome. Considering it be from the neolithic peoples, i think it would itself start long before Carthage or Rome got off the ground. But they also need a bigger population to do that i guess. |
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