amir
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Post by amir on Nov 21, 2019 23:56:20 GMT
I take Suvorov with a grain of salt- doubtless he had good information, but he also had to be very aware of needing to demonstrate his value to the west (and sell books).
USSR ratified both Geneva 1-4 and the Hague Conventions. That said, this is war and things happen. I doubt the Soviets will deliberately target medical facilities and vehicles any more than NATO is, but I under the stress of combat mistakes get made.
The understanding of the average soviet soldier or officers was built on field service regulations taught by political officers and superiors. If they are told the action is legal, they have been conditioned to believe and obey.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2019 11:34:29 GMT
I take Suvorov with a grain of salt- doubtless he had good information, but he also had to be very aware of needing to demonstrate his value to the west (and sell books). USSR ratified both Geneva 1-4 and the Hague Conventions. That said, this is war and things happen. I doubt the Soviets will deliberately target medical facilities and vehicles any more than NATO is, but I under the stress of combat mistakes get made. The understanding of the average soviet soldier or officers was built on field service regulations taught by political officers and superiors. If they are told the action is legal, they have been conditioned to believe and obey.
I think I remember something like this in Sir John Hackett's 3rd World War books. One of them had a mention of Soviet troops being surprised by the way NATO units had some targets brazened with large red crosses, which made them easier to hit. Suggesting that they were kept ignorant of international agreements on such things. Whether this was something he knew from personal experience or made up as part of the plot I don't know. I could definitely see Soviet special forces having no qualms about murdering civilians if convenient for them. Ditto I had a feeling that Sarah would feel sexually threatened. She at least has started to realise how totally expendable the pair are to their masters.
Sounds like things are starting to come undue for John at least. Hopefully its part of a wider movement and the incoming paras are going to get a very hot reception. Unfortunately I have a feeling that none of the characters taken alive are likely to be executed, as all of them could be as I suspect there will be some agreement at the end.
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amir
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Post by amir on Nov 22, 2019 12:58:56 GMT
Given the poor coordination between HVA, GRU, and (presumably) KGB what if this is a link-up gone wrong?
Two groups behind enemy lines dressed in enemy uniforms surprise each other in the dark...
Fratricide and near fratricide happens quite a bit- there’s an old saying “when it gets dark, we get dumb”.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2019 18:04:01 GMT
Given the poor coordination between HVA, GRU, and (presumably) KGB what if this is a link-up gone wrong? Two groups behind enemy lines dressed in enemy uniforms surprise each other in the dark... Fratricide happens quite a bit- there’s an old saying “when it gets dark, we get dumb”.
Now that would be an interesting idea. Unlikely but could cause some problems for everybody. Including real British forces when in reaction to the reports of gunfighting they find two groups, or the survivors of, blasting away at each other in British army uniforms.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 22, 2019 19:18:29 GMT
I take Suvorov with a grain of salt- doubtless he had good information, but he also had to be very aware of needing to demonstrate his value to the west (and sell books). USSR ratified both Geneva 1-4 and the Hague Conventions. That said, this is war and things happen. I doubt the Soviets will deliberately target medical facilities and vehicles any more than NATO is, but I under the stress of combat mistakes get made. The understanding of the average soviet soldier or officers was built on field service regulations taught by political officers and superiors. If they are told the action is legal, they have been conditioned to believe and obey. I have read much of his work and understand that a lot of it has been criticised. I agree that it does need to be taken with caution. My thinking was that there will be a lot of 'look the other way' from superiors at war crimes. NATO will be doing the same too: not on the same scale but I'm sure it would occur. Yes, the conditioning to obey orders will be very strong. To not do so will invite consequences. Once a few examples are made of those who don't do as ordered, everyone else would fall in line.
I think I remember something like this in Sir John Hackett's 3rd World War books. One of them had a mention of Soviet troops being surprised by the way NATO units had some targets brazened with large red crosses, which made them easier to hit. Suggesting that they were kept ignorant of international agreements on such things. Whether this was something he knew from personal experience or made up as part of the plot I don't know. I could definitely see Soviet special forces having no qualms about murdering civilians if convenient for them. Ditto I had a feeling that Sarah would feel sexually threatened. She at least has started to realise how totally expendable the pair are to their masters.
Sounds like things are starting to come undue for John at least. Hopefully its part of a wider movement and the incoming paras are going to get a very hot reception. Unfortunately I have a feeling that none of the characters taken alive are likely to be executed, as all of them could be as I suspect there will be some agreement at the end.
I'm recalling that now in The Third World War and worry I might have mixed that up with Suvorov. She is feeling that: Kolya did describe her using her figure. Again, it is probably all in her head though. The whole invasion will not come off with ease at all. There will be all sorts of problems: a hot reception is assured in some places, even failure. Elsewhere though... We'll have to see where we end up with what happens to those involved in this Interlude: whether they live or die it still to be seen. Given the poor coordination between HVA, GRU, and (presumably) KGB what if this is a link-up gone wrong? Two groups behind enemy lines dressed in enemy uniforms surprise each other in the dark... Fratricide and near fratricide happens quite a bit- there’s an old saying “when it gets dark, we get dumb”. That is a very good idea. I've used the possibility of that being the case - not saying either way - in the update below, taking this idea for what I was writing. Thank you!
Now that would be an interesting idea. Unlikely but could cause some problems for everybody. Including real British forces when in reaction to the reports of gunfighting they find two groups, or the survivors of, blasting away at each other in British army uniforms.
It is a very good idea and I've made use of it. When British forces make contact with the enemy, very few will realise what they are facing. They'll be thinking commando raids, even a big one: that was why troops were assigned to defend many locations. British troops at time could also end up fighting each other too before everyone realises 'hey, they are our guys'. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 22, 2019 19:20:13 GMT
The Britons; thirteen
The cloud cover disappeared as the night sky cleared up. Sarah saw the crescent moon and the stars too. Where there had been near total darkness earlier, there now was some light in the early hours. The wind had died down as well. She thought of all those crazy people about to jump out of aeroplanes. At least now, they would be able to see where they were about to land. The work here in the open fields behind the Roberts farm was finished. All of the lighting systems were complete. In addition, a few possible obstacles, nothing serious but still dangerous to parachutists, had been removed: the television aerial atop the farmhouse and the blades on the unused windmill. Kolya had sent Brow – or Vlad as he continued to call him in unknown defiance of what Sarah was calling him in her mind – off to get some coloured smoke flares too. The Soviet commando said that the first wave of men would come in just ahead of dawn breaking and need the lights but the follow-up waves would come down where they would see the red smoke rising. Sarah spent some time looking up at that sky above her while she waited for the last of that equipment. The flares were to be stored at various points ready to be deployed on-cue. She asked Kolya what the time was. It was nearly three o’clock in the morning. Not long now, he said: not long at all. What was she to do once the paratroopers arrived? Kolya had to think about that for a second before he could give an answer. He told her soon enough that she would likely be that one of the alternate sites. Little pre-work had been done at either of them though there wasn’t going to be as much of a complex set-up at each. Once Vanya returned with Sarah’s husband, Kolya said that he would know more then but that was the intention. Sarah listened to what he had to say and also studied him as he spoke. If seemed to him like an afterthought, like he was making this up as he went along. She didn’t like the sound of that. It made her worry that she was no longer useful. It made her worry too that she had no future either.
Kolya had a radio with him. She’d seen him carry it but it had been unused so far. For contact with the pathfinders when they were hiding in the woods, she and John had used pre-arranged sites at certain times and then whistles to make final contact. Morgan had spoken of the dangers of using radios. The British – the Americans as well; they had a big electronic eavesdropping set-up in the UK – could intercept and track such signals to pinpoint locations. Such modern communication means were thus banned for the operation, so had said their last controller. However, these Soviet commandos had them. Just after saying what he had to her, something that at once caused Sarah concern for her safety, that radio that Kolya had came to life. There was a wave of static then a whole load of shouting. It sounded like shooting too on the other end. In quickfire Russian, Kolya was talking to whom Sarah presumed was Vanya. She had no idea what was being said but it certainly was something important with all that she could hear going on over the link. Kolya finished the conversation with the comment ‘Proshchay, Tovarisch’. While having no idea what that could have meant, Kolya looked terribly shaken up after saying it. He told Sarah that the three of them – him, her and Vlad – needed to go to the closest alternate site at once. What about John? His answer to her question there was met with the comment that her husband would meet them there. It didn’t sound truthful at all. Sarah didn’t believe him. She didn’t know what was happening but she was certain that Kolya wasn’t telling her the truth.
John crawled away to the left. Vanya had gone running forward after using his radio, firing an AK-type assault rifle. He’d dropped the British-issue SLR and that was something that John took with him as he went across grass, mud and then some more grass. The exchanges of gunfire as well a small explosion which sounded like a grenade going off got further behind him. A glance over his shoulder allowed him to see running figures but telling them apart was impossible. There had been the declaration made that it was the British attacking but John didn’t know if that was the case at all: a thought occurred to him that it could easily have been fellow Soviet commandos engaged in friendly fire with Vanya’s men. So much had gone wrong already with everything – much of that Sarah’s fault though – and that could be how things were here. Whether the attackers were friends or foes, it didn’t matter. John was going the other way from them. Half a lifetime ago, long before he’d joined the HVA to become a spy in a foreign land, he’d done his service with the Border Troops. The Grenztruppen had been no easy posting for a young conscript. Physical training was hard. He’d faced tougher times than this. He was older now yet he got through it all. The adrenaline got him to where he needed to be. John reached the Land Rover where it was tucked in tight behind the sportsground’s clubhouse. He got up on his hunches and looked around. He could see no one. He opened the driver’s side door from where he was low down on the ground and climbed inside. Still staying low, John didn’t raise his head to look out of the windows despite really wanting to. The rifle went across the passenger seat and John got Sarah’s pistol out of the glovebox where she’d left it. He thought of her. If she hadn’t of done all of the things that she had done, he would have gone to get her. But she had done what she had. What had happened here, if those were British soldiers attacking, had probably been down to her actions. All of the shooting which had take place earlier and the explosion which had come from when Leah set off that booby-trap charge at one of the commando hides had been down to Sarah. That had to have attracted the attention which had now come. Sarah was responsible for all of this and she would remain behind.
John turned the ignition key (he’d left it in there) to start the engine. The vehicle at once came to life. There was still shooting going on to cover the noise and this remained a quiet vehicle after all the work he’d done on it to make it that way. Now, only now, did he slowly raise his head. He looked first behind, back where he had come from, and couldn’t see anyone. Then it was first to the right before his eyes went ahead of him (the wooden building was directly to the left giving no view that way). There was still no one in sight. It was time to go. John assured himself that he had done all that he could have. He had faithfully done his duty in supporting and guiding the pathfinders sent here. None of what had one wrong had been his fault and he’d worked to resolve problems that had come up to the best of his ability. John had long-standing orders that, in the event of certain discovery, he was to flee to avoid capture. Those covered his time on his espionage mission but there had been no official change on that note for when suddenly he had become an aide to the incoming invasion. Getting caught would gravely harm the HVA and his nation. He was allowed to get out of here! John drove away. He went slowly and straight towards the treeline ahead of him, avoiding the little road. That building was still between him and the shooting out in the open space where paratroopers were supposed to land but he at once lost the concealment it offered. He waited for gunshots to follow him, even the launch of a rocket. Among the weapons which he had supplied to the Soviet commandos were short-range man-portable launchers. One of the rockets could easily take out the Land Rover killing him instantly if Vanya’s men fired upon him. Or, those British soldiers (if that was who they were) would probably have a man with their own rocket launcher too. He cringed at the thought of a fiery death though kept his foot on the accelerator and his head as low as possible so he could only barely see where he was going. John made it to the trees. No one shot at him there nor when he was on the country lane behind. Off he went, leaving everyone behind. He was making his escape and aiming to vanish into obscurity.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 22, 2019 20:38:25 GMT
So John's doing a runner. Probably actually the best thing under the circumstances but from the way he's trying to blame Sarah for everything I suspect there's at least a hint of self-justification.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 22, 2019 21:13:41 GMT
So John's doing a runner. Probably actually the best thing under the circumstances but from the way he's trying to blame Sarah for everything I suspect there's at least a hint of self-justification. He's got to get away. Their pre-war espionage work gave him an idea of what UK forces would do in wartime to establish roadblocks etc but he's running a real risk of getting caught. He's right and wrong to blame Sarah. He was the senior officer and when she messed up at first, he failed to supervise her and she did it again. A court martial - if he made it home - would hold him accountable. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2019 11:16:00 GMT
So John's doing a runner. Probably actually the best thing under the circumstances but from the way he's trying to blame Sarah for everything I suspect there's at least a hint of self-justification. He's got to get away. Their pre-war espionage work gave him an idea of what UK forces would do in wartime to establish roadblocks etc but he's running a real risk of getting caught. He's right and wrong to blame Sarah. He was the senior officer and when she messed up at first, he failed to supervise her and she did it again. A court martial - if he made it home - would hold him accountable.
I was thinking more that he was blaming her for Leah's death for instance, which I don't think is accurate unless I misread things. Also that line:
Sounds totally phony to me. He's simply looking out for himself and using that as an excuse to not try and aid the colleague he's been working with for so many years. Can't see any way he would risk his neck, with things going to pot, even if Sarah had done nothing wrong.
I suspect if he did get home and he was identified as involved in the [failed I assume] invasion he would definitely face a courts martial simply because the authorities would want someone to blame and if E Germany is still under Soviet control Moscow would want a scapegoat who wasn't Soviet. Ignoring anything that actually went wrong that might have been his fault.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 23, 2019 15:55:54 GMT
He's got to get away. Their pre-war espionage work gave him an idea of what UK forces would do in wartime to establish roadblocks etc but he's running a real risk of getting caught. He's right and wrong to blame Sarah. He was the senior officer and when she messed up at first, he failed to supervise her and she did it again. A court martial - if he made it home - would hold him accountable.
I was thinking more that he was blaming her for Leah's death for instance, which I don't think is accurate unless I misread things. Also that line:
Sounds totally phony to me. He's simply looking out for himself and using that as an excuse to not try and aid the colleague he's been working with for so many years. Can't see any way he would risk his neck, with things going to pot, even if Sarah had done nothing wrong.
I suspect if he did get home and he was identified as involved in the [failed I assume] invasion he would definitely face a courts martial simply because the authorities would want someone to blame and if E Germany is still under Soviet control Moscow would want a scapegoat who wasn't Soviet. Ignoring anything that actually went wrong that might have been his fault.
They're both responsible for the death of one of their native agents. Highly-trained and loyal, back home they wouldn't really care one iota for a British traitor though. You're right. He was never going back for her. Her feelings on a mistaken belief on his fate - as we'll see below - will be different though. Oh, yes, if there was a court martial, whatever the truth of things, he'd be getting the blame. It would be the little people too, rather than those at the helm. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 23, 2019 15:56:59 GMT
The Britons; fourteen
Sarah hadn’t ridden a bike since she was a teenage girl back in Saxony. It was said that once you learn, you never forget. Sarah sat on the bike and found that that was true. She was underway at once, following behind the two Soviet commandos as they left the farm and headed off down a little country lane. When Kolya had told her that they would be travelling by bike, her mouth had fallen open. A bike!? There were half a dozen of them with each in good condition. Sarah was told that these had been made good use of for getting around by the pathfinders in the past few days. A lot of things made sense with that. Along with the use of radios like she’d recently noted too, she understood better how Vanya’s men had been able to operate as they had in getting around undetected. While riding, Sarah trailed behind Kolya and Brow / Vlad. They were each carrying weapons while she was given two backpacks to carry. Each was heavy. The straps dug into her shoulders and the contents banged into her lower back at every given opportunity going over broken ground. She winced again and again at the pain but kept up with the pair of armed men out ahead. The course they took saw her get lost at once. She had no idea where she was when Kolya announced that they had reached one of the alternate landing sites. It was another couple of fields which were open and generally flat but offered nowhere near the size that could be found behind the Roberts farm. Kolya issued rapid-fire instructions to his comrade and then turned to her. Sarah was to help him get things set up here. There was a lot to do, he said, and not much time left. The windsocks would be forgotten this time but what was important was the infrared signalling, the landing lights and the coloured-smoke flares. Kolya too wanted just a simple set up with the electrical cabling connections rather than a back-up redundancy system. Time, he stressed again, was very short now. Where’s John and where are the others? That was what Sarah wanted to know and she wouldn’t get to work until Kolya gave her an answer.
They’re all dead, or, if not, then captured. The British had attacked at the other primary site and everyone there was lost. Kolya told her this in a matter-of-fact manner. He gave the impression of no longer giving a damn, that he was past whatever sadness Sarah was sure that she had detected in his communication with Vanya not long ago. She had suspected as much, that such a fate had befallen John, but now she had had that confirmed. It hurt. The thought of John dead stung her. What hurt more was how Kolya didn’t care. He told her to remember her mission and do as she was supposed to do: help them here. There were thousands of incoming comrades of his due to land soon enough and that was what was important. But she didn’t move. She wasn’t about to cry or lay down on the floor – nothing dramatic like that – but Sarah was incapable of doing anything at the minute when she thought of the end for John. Despite their differences, recent and long-term, fifteen years meant something to her. She needed to process this, to take it all in. Kolya was pulling at her though, shouting for her to come with him and help. She refused to budge. Kolya got up in her face. He screamed at her: do as you are told, you stupid bitch! If this was a film, up on the silver screen, Sarah would have slapped him in the face or used her knee against his manhood. He was a big guy though, someone who didn’t look like they would easily be hurt. Sarah wanted to hurt him though: to have him get her hands off her and also to release some of the pain she was feeling. Back at the HVA’s academy, in addition to that poison class she’d taken as a young recruit, she’d taken self-defence classes too: the Stasi’s foreign intelligence arm was keen for its officers to learn such things and Sarah had been an eager student. Kolya was beside her and she was slightly behind him. Perfect! She punched him in the side, just below the ribcage. His left kidney took the full weight of her punch. Kolya at once hit the ground. Sarah stood over him, about to say something when she thought of what would be suitable, but then she heard someone behind her. Ah, damn, she’d forgotten about Brow. Sarah spun around, thinking she’d get his rifle off him before finding some way through the language barrier to talk him down. She saw the rifle stock coming towards her though. Just for a split second she saw Brow grinning from ear-to-ear too. Then everything went black.
John got far away really quickly. He knew where he was going and though he wasn’t taking a direct route, he was putting much distance between where the British had attacked Vanya’s men and himself. The Land Rover cut through several fields – he nearly hit a wandering cow on the way: what was that doing outside!? – and John knew that they only way anyone would be able to follow him would be from above. There was a lot going on above. John didn’t believe that any helicopter would be able to survive up there tracking him. He couldn’t see that much though heard a great deal. There were aircraft all over the night sky. He was convinced that there was an air battle going on. John watched an aircraft come down. For a second, he thought he was seeing a shooting star, an earth-grazing meteorite. It wasn’t though. Trailing fire and coming in fast was an aircraft. Whether there were aircrew aboard, whether it was a NATO or Warsaw Pact aircraft, he didn’t know. He believed that it wasn’t a transport aircraft for those incoming paratroopers because it was reasonably small but that was all that he could be sure of. The aircraft smashed into the ground a few miles ahead of him. There was an explosion, the shockwave which he felt a few moments later. John stopped the vehicle. A huge fire erupted and it rapidly grew. It had rained a few days ago but the summer’s heat would have quickly caused the moisture to evaporate. The countryside was dry and thus kinder for the fire now raging, one he was sure was being fed too by aviation fuel. He’d come to a halt not to watch that fire but because that was the way which he intended to go. His mind searched for another route. John checked under the seat for a map. He recalled Sarah saying that when Leah had brought the Land Rover back from wherever she’d gone on the eve of the war, it had been ‘sanitised’ with nothing inside it: no maps, pieces of paper or anything. He hoped that something had been overlooked but he had no luck. Far from home, John wouldn’t have said he was lost but he couldn’t be exactly sure that he didn’t know another route. His worry was about running into a patrol of British soldiers. They had one of their Territorial Army battalions – the 6th of the Royal Anglian Regiment – present in Norfolk and he knew that Army & Air Cadets would be about as well. A man in a vehicle with two weapons would be someone that they would pay special attention to.
John didn’t abandon the vehicle. He did consider moving on foot though he knew that he’d get much further on wheels. He hadn’t been directly told, but it was clear that Vanya’s team wasn’t preparing the only landing sites for paratroopers in Norfolk. This English county was full of airbases and John expected that they too would be attracting the attention of incoming Soviet Airborne soldiers. Very soon now, they’d be everywhere. He didn’t fancy an encounter with them like he didn’t want to run into a British patrol. John considered the soon-to-be arriving Soviets more dangerous. He could hopefully talk his way through a British roadblock but imagined that invading troops would shoot up a moving vehicle rather than stop to check that it was carrying someone who was technically an ally of theirs. He’d have to risk a checkpoint. Therefore, he got rid of the rifle. The SLR was thrown out of the window into a hedgerow. As to Sarah’s pistol, John first considered tucking that down the front if his jeans. It was a big gun though. Rather than get rid of it and leave himself naked, John hid it. The front passenger seat had long ago been cut to allow for a discreet opening inside. Anyone sitting on the pistol would feel it digging into their behind, but there was no visible bump nor could it be felt by the running of a hand across the fabric seat. An experienced searcher would find it within seconds, John knew, but it was out of plain sight. He couldn’t do without it. John started driving again. He was going west, across the Fens towards Cambridgeshire. Checking the time, John saw that dawn was going to break soon enough. He didn’t have long to get away from the warzone which Norfolk was about to become.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 23, 2019 20:29:34 GMT
The final part of the Interlude will be posted tomorrow. After that, we will have Part Four - Norfolk Dawn.
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amir
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Post by amir on Nov 23, 2019 22:07:03 GMT
Your Good Morning Britain weather on Anglia will be: “It’s raining men!”
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Nov 24, 2019 6:25:43 GMT
I suspect regular TV-AM broadcasting might be curtailed...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 9:18:52 GMT
Well it sounds like things are starting to come apart nicely. Hopefully the prime landing site is lost as Kolya said and the incoming forces are facing a very hot reception. Also it sounds like neither Kolya or Vlad won't be setting up either of the alternative sites, Kolya because he's crippled/dying and Vlad because I suspect he's abusing Sarah.
John is doing a runner and also ideally he will run into some of his friends, as if he did get captured by our forces he might well survive. I don't think any info he has would be that useful as apart from limited time to extract it he's been largely kept out of any real details of the invasion, although anything he could tell about the wider pre-war enemy network would be useful post war I suppose.
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