stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2019 20:27:18 GMT
James
Another good chapter.
Well that last point is ominous. I suspect the great leader will be unhappy at the loss of those islands and will demand some action. How much of its ammo stack has Missouri used up? IIRC battleships in the two WWs had about 80-100 shells per big gun so it could be running low.
The Russians are getting more reckless. Tracking the USN force with a sub while there's a shooting war going on is likely to see it being attacked as a potential threat.
Steve
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 2, 2019 21:13:13 GMT
James
Another good chapter.
Well that last point is ominous. I suspect the great leader will be unhappy at the loss of those islands and will demand some action. How much of its ammo stack has Missouri used up? IIRC battleships in the two WWs had about 80-100 shells per big gun so it could be running low.
The Russians are getting more reckless. Tracking the USN force with a sub while there's a shooting war going on is likely to see it being attacked as a potential threat.
Steve
Thank you. Oh, yes, there will be an Iranian-US clash in Iraq up next. Finding out how much ammo the Iowas like Missouri had isn't easy. I remember trying to find out the other year for another story and giving up! From what I can find out - and none of this is certain - there were 3'000 shells per battleship after their 80s conversion. In recent years, the US has 15'000 in storage and looking to get rid of them. However, after 300 shots, a barrel needed changing. So that is a max firing of 2'700 rounds before yard work. I'd think in the time the Missouri has been in the Gulf, it has fired off several hundred against Iraqi targets. This latest engagement might have been a few hundred more. Nine guns can fire eighteen per minute too. Also supposedly carried in the 80s were 20kiloton nuke shots, something 'neither confirmed nor denied' like the TLAM-N Tomahawks with 200k warheads aboard. Also, in Vietnam, before the Iowas were modernised, New Jersey reportedly fire 5'000 plus shells against VC targets in four months, which would have meant going back to Subic Bay (I guess) to change barrels. The Soviets have had other tracking missions in the Gulf and the Med - including an Oscar SSGN boat with two dozen Shipwrecks - but this shadow is very close. It's a very dangerous thing to do.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 3, 2019 9:28:51 GMT
Most material I've read regarding on shells/battleship come out at ~1200 per Iowa. Depending on the PoD, there may be some of the 23,000 280mm shells postulated for sabot conversion under Project Gunfighter in the 1960s around and available.
No Katie's were carried in the 1980s. A large part of the raison d'être of 80s Iowas was getting TLAM and TLAM-N to sea; details on that would still be classified.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 3, 2019 19:41:21 GMT
Most material I've read regarding on shells/battleship come out at ~1200 per Iowa. Depending on the PoD, there may be some of the 23,000 280mm shells postulated for sabot conversion under Project Gunfighter in the 1960s around and available. No Katie's were carried in the 1980s. A large part of the raison d'être of 80s Iowas was getting TLAM and TLAM-N to sea; details on that would still be classified. Thank you. I'll accept this figure as more likely considering where I got my info from last night. 1200 is still plenty of supplies and I am sure there is an ammo ship available for rearming. I'd think so far against Iraqi and Iranian targets, about half of the payload has bene used up. No nuclear shells then. Okay... change in later plans for Missouri's big battle, but a change I can deal with. Thank you again.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 3, 2019 19:42:40 GMT
92 – Desert Dragons
Iranian dismounted infantry, Revolutionary Guard troops on foot, came out of Basra and attacked the American positions around that Iraq city early on August 18th. These men were new in Basra, arriving after it had been taken by regular Iranian Army forces. Going up against the Americans, this Revolutionary Guard brigade had support from tanks. There were Chieftains with an armoured brigade (from the Iranian Army) assigned to fight with them. The infantry and tanks clashed with American paratroopers who were aided by their own armour. The whole of the 82nd Airborne Division – still short that battalion lost at the beginning of the war with Iraq – was outside Basra, not just that lone brigade as had been the case when the Iranians first took the city. Two extra battalions of heavy guns plus a battalion of main battle tanks had been tasked to reinforce the paratroopers. They were all ready for the Iranians to make such a move. Air recon spotted the movement ahead of time as the Iranians massed themselves before contact reports flooded in. American paratroopers in forward positions had the enemy coming at them. Their ROE wasn’t restricted to waiting for the Iranians to open fire first, just when they moved. It was the Americans who fired first though very quickly came the crash of Iranian heavy guns which started shelling the 82nd Airborne. Back-and-forth fire took place with infantry and artillery before the first armoured clashes began. Those Iranian tanks were advancing as well. The thermal sighting systems on the M-551 Sheridans serving with 3/73 Armor spotted them as well as the Mk.1 eyeball too. Those light tanks opened fire with shells and soon missiles. They wouldn’t be enough to stop the Iranian Chieftains – at Dharan, the company of M-551s sent there had fired on Iraqi T-62s and been overcome; the Chieftain was a much harder target to kill – but that was already understood. The Americans therefore had their M-60s, the A3 versions, here to make sure that Basra wouldn’t be a defeat like Dhahran was. With excellent targeting equipment, quite fantastic shells and also damn fine marksmanship, these American tanks went into action. 8/40 Armor (the Desert Dragons), Army Reservists based in Arizona, didn’t sit back and defend their positions like the 3/73 Armor did though. They were here to stop the Iranians and that meant going forward.
Crashing into the Iranian tanks as they went out ahead of their own infantry, the Desert Dragons obliterated their opponents. It was an unfair fight. The Iranians weren’t prepared to be facing who they were. Tank after tank of theirs blew up, hit from distance. Several Iranians gunners returned fire well and they did knock out several M-60s. These were mission kills, not complete kills though. When the Americans hit the Iranians, they were destroying them for good and killing those inside of them. Both American helicopters gunships and then Iranian ones turned up. Each side had Cobras though the Americans also had some newer Apaches as well. The Desert Dragons worked with their compatriots in the 82nd Airborne’ aviation units. Those above spotted more incoming tanks and attacked those they could while reporting where others were. Helicopter-vs.-helicopter duels did occur – only a couple – and the American Apaches used their cannons to take out Iranian Cobras while having a few close calls with almost blue-on-blue incidents. One pair of Iranian helicopter gunships escape the furious aerial engagements and got down very low. Much was done to try to stop them but they managed to put missiles into several American tanks. It wasn’t enough though. The Iranians weren’t able to stop the Desert Dragons as they reached the forwardmost positions of the paratroopers where those 82nd Airborne soldiers were near surrounded by the Iranians. They’d been engaging the Revolutionary Guard troops before surviving Chieftains had closed up to try to finish them off. Now their own tanks came to their aid, hitting them from outside while American fire came from within. Dozens upon dozens of Chieftains had already been lost and now the last of them were taken on. They fought until the death, knocking out some more M-60s before they were all finally silenced. There’d been two battalions of them going into battle, close to eighty tanks. The Americans – their own tanks, helicopter gunships and paratroopers using man-portable weapons – got all of them in the end. Already in trouble, now with no more armoured support, the Iranians on foot were doomed. The paratroopers and the M-551s caught up with the Desert Dragons. Further bloody fighting commenced before the battle was over with. Surviving Iranians were seen running back towards Basra but there weren’t many of them. Their comrades lay dead and injured outside the Iraqi city.
In stopping the Iranian attack, the Americans had taken their own losses. Hundreds of casualties had been caused to the 82nd Airborne. Not everything had gone to plan with their defence against an expected attack. In the last stage of the fight, when the M-551s had come forward, half a dozen had been hit up close. Each one burnt for some time with their crews inside. The paratroopers had been dug-in but Iranian heavy guns, before they were silenced by counter-battery fire, had still taken plenty of lives and caused many injuries. The Desert Dragons lost nine tanks overall. Half of them could be eventually repaired but the hope had been that none would be. The Iranians had refused to go down easy though and had got their licks in. They had lost this battle though, that was undeniable, and it had been quiet the defeat.
Still… Basra had only been a distraction. Those Iranians which had taken Basra away from Iraqi control didn’t fight the Americans outside the city to force the American away. Iran’s South-Western Corps was elsewhere: nearby but not there. They spent that morning waiting on the outcome of the fight. The 77th Mechanised (fielding M-113 infantry carriers and T-55 tanks) & 92nd Armoured (with both Chieftains and Iran’s own M-60 tanks) Divisions were the SW Corps’ main strength along with an infantry division behind Basra and that now-destroyed independent armoured brigade. There was a detailed plan with what the Iranians were up to. At Basra, the Americans were supposed to be beaten and fixed in-place south of there when they brought in their heavier forces – those coming up from Kuwait – to try to reverse their defeat. Once that occurred, the SW Corps was due to strike. They’d avoid the wider Basra area and race around the Americans to head for the shores of the Gulf in the northern reaches of the Gulf. There’d be a pocked formed with those Americans inside then battered into submission before a final humiliating surrender. Yet, this plan had gone awry. Basra turned into an American victory, not a defeat. They had more men there than foreseen and also were ready for a fight. Orders from on high kept the SW Corps waiting. There were those at the top of the command chain, above the corps commander, who were waiting for the victory to come at Basra and refused to believe that would fail until it was very clear that it had. While they waited, they came under air attack. The Americans had spotted them like they had the Iranians readying to attack in Basra. Aircraft streamed in to strike at the scattered Iranians waiting northwest of the city and did immense damage. In the meantime, the US XVIII Airborne Corps was readying itself out in the desert for a fight with them. The belief at CENTCOM – shared down the command chain – was that despite the defeat at Basra, the Iranians would still move the SW Corps forward. They were going to come at the XVIII Corps regardless soon enough. That was certain to happen, it was just a matter of when the Iranians would throw themselves into another attack where the odds were stacked against them. But if they didn’t come forward, the XVIII Corps would then go on the attack themselves instead.
A re-igniting of the Iran-Iraq War put the Soviet Union in a difficult spot. Neither country was an ally of theirs but there were important relations with each of them during the time when they had been at peace. The Soviet presence in Iraq and down through the Gulf was aided by Iranian access. Back at war with Iraq and also fighting the Americans too, Iran requested a significant amount of arms – all to be sent at once – to allow for that continued access to occur. This situation was actually quite crazy! Khomeini’s mouthpieces were telling Moscow that should the Soviet Union wish to be able to keep supporting Iraq like it was in Rashid’s ongoing war with the American-led Coalition, while Iran was at war with Iraq too, Tehran would require arms to fight the Iraqis. Those Soviet-supplied arms in Iranian hands would be weakening Iraq. Moscow couldn’t stop Iran and Iraq from fighting on another. They’d tried and failed… though if they’d really tried, they could have. Regardless, this was happening. Moscow’s preferred position would have been if both nations only fought the Americans rather than each other too: even better if Baghdad and Tehran worked together in that.
There was frustration in Moscow but it was a situation which they ultimately had got themselves into.
Iran’s war in Iraq was almost countrywide. They were attacking across the nation with air and missile strikes deep while crossing the border down much of its length. Iran’s Western Corps – three heavy divisions plus airmobile forces – was heading for Baghdad. Rashid’s armies were unable to stop that advance nor what else was going on with Iran’s attacks. A list had been supplied to Tehran informing them of where Soviet forces in Iraq were based. It was made clear that these places weren’t to be attacked. However, the Iranian war machine was in full swing. Iraq, so beaten up after fighting the Coalition for two months, was going to come apart. Moscow was sure that Rashid would soon employ gas again but didn’t believe that would be enough to save his regime. They foresaw Iraqi resistance crumbling and their own forces in-country caught in unfriendly terrain because that collapse looked likely to see revolutionary chaos.
Following up to date briefings on the ongoing situation from Gromyko and Sokolov, the Politburo decided that same evening to start withdrawing some of their most exposed forces out of Iraq. Those were air and reconnaissance units rather than any significant number of troops. Spread through Central Iraq, they would now be going to Syria. It wasn’t going to be something that could be done instantly but neither would it be a slow process. As to Rashid, he’d been told that this was temporary. Iraq wasn’t be abandoned, Moscow would say, but the pull-out was necessary to avoid any unnecessary Soviet casualties. These men on the Politburo were giving up on him though. Iraq was a lost cause and nothing could change that. Without realising, Iran had forced the situation where Soviet access to Iraq was something soon to not be needed by the Soviet Union from Tehran. What would than mean for all those weapons transfers on favourable terms that the Iranians wanted?
There were those two Soviet sites down in Southern Iraq though, the ones surrounded by the Americans. An evacuation of them was going to be more difficult. How was this to be done? Not with any ease. The Politburo regarded that as being something that could cause an ‘incident’. However, it was to be the movement of forces starting the next day out of Iraq into Syria where there would be one of those set to occur instead. This would be a violent incident, one where Soviet lives were lost in hostile, if accidental, military action. Again.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2019 19:43:59 GMT
1200 is still plenty of supplies and I am sure there is an ammo ship available for rearming. I'd think so far against Iraqi and Iranian targets, about half of the payload has bene used up. No nuclear shells then. Okay... change in later plans for Missouri's big battle, but a change I can deal with. Missouri versus Kirov maybe.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 3, 2019 19:48:20 GMT
1200 is still plenty of supplies and I am sure there is an ammo ship available for rearming. I'd think so far against Iraqi and Iranian targets, about half of the payload has bene used up. No nuclear shells then. Okay... change in later plans for Missouri's big battle, but a change I can deal with. Missouri versus Kirov maybe. It's an outline plan for the Missouri vs that Kirov - the Frunze - once the war starts. A standard gunnery duel wasn't going to be the case though. It will not be long at all until I write that either. There are eight more updates - subject to last minute changes - before WW3 goes live. There's a lot to write but I have five days free to do that. (Wednesday is when I aim to have the war start)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2019 19:50:15 GMT
Missouri versus Kirov maybe. It's an outline plan for the Missouri vs that Kirov - the Frunze - once the war starts. A standard gunnery duel wasn't going to be the case though. It will not be long at all until I write that either. There are eight more updates - subject to last minute changes - before WW3 goes live. There's a lot to write but I have five days free to do that. (Wednesday is when I aim to have the war start) Always good to know when WW III starts, you already have earned the Tittle of Master of WW III here James G.
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amir
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Post by amir on Oct 4, 2019 0:51:51 GMT
Nice one! Looks like the rug is about to get pulled out from under the Iranians.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 4, 2019 9:31:10 GMT
James Well Khomeini has gone full throttle as I rather expected, ignoring the potential losses, which never really seem to bother him, or the political consequences. I'm not sure about an airbourne corp taking the offensive against an heavy Iran corp. Even with US superiority in technology and air power that is likely to mean higher casualties if nothing else.
This bit sounds odd to me? I think you mean Soviet access to Iraq via Iran was something that wouldn't be needed because of the Iranians invasion? Of course the Soviets could well decide, if they have them spare,to still send the weapons because Iran is fighting the US, especially once the Soviets also decide to go to war.
The actual withdrawal from the two southern pockets would be fairly easy if the Soviets could face backing down and announcing they were withdrawing as well as talking to the US about it. However it sounds like there will be an inadvertent attack on the Soviet forces withdrawing further will heat things up before that could occur.
Steve
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 4, 2019 19:10:55 GMT
It's an outline plan for the Missouri vs that Kirov - the Frunze - once the war starts. A standard gunnery duel wasn't going to be the case though. It will not be long at all until I write that either. There are eight more updates - subject to last minute changes - before WW3 goes live. There's a lot to write but I have five days free to do that. (Wednesday is when I aim to have the war start) Always good to know when WW III starts, you already have earned the Tittle of Master of WW III here James G . Thank you. Big plans for this one! Nice one! Looks like the rug is about to get pulled out from under the Iranians. Thanks. Yep, they are a victim of their own success! The Iraqis are getting abandoned too. James Well Khomeini has gone full throttle as I rather expected, ignoring the potential losses, which never really seem to bother him, or the political consequences. I'm not sure about an airbourne corp taking the offensive against an heavy Iran corp. Even with US superiority in technology and air power that is likely to mean higher casualties if nothing else. Without realising, Iran had forced the situation where Iranian access to Iraq was someone soon to not be needed by the Soviet Union from Tehran. What would than mean for all those weapons transfers on favourable terms that the Iranians wanted? This bit sounds odd to me? I think you mean Soviet access to Iraq via Iran was something that wouldn't be needed because of the Iranians invasion? Of course the Soviets could well decide, if they have them spare,to still send the weapons because Iran is fighting the US, especially once the Soviets also decide to go to war.
The actual withdrawal from the two southern pockets would be fairly easy if the Soviets could face backing down and announcing they were withdrawing as well as talking to the US about it. However it sounds like there will be an inadvertent attack on the Soviet forces withdrawing further will heat things up before that could occur.
Steve
The US XVIII Corps has a whole heavy division, another medium one, an independent heavy brigade, an armoured cav regiment in addition to the two airborne divisions. The US Marines with their forces still in Iraq have a whole division plus, and they have armour. I think they can handle that Iranian corps. They whole Iranian army is a different matter which is why there is that two-stage reinforcement going on with more heavy forces. Still, heavy losses will come because the Iranians will be a tougher ask than the Iraqis. Initial victories against Iran have come but have shown that they can fight. Yep, I messed up. I meant 'Soviet access to Iraq was something soon to be not needed by the Soviets'. I've changed it now. Backing down in Moscow isn't on the cards. They decided back into July to play hardball with the US. Those bases do them no good but they will stick there until the end. There will be an incident at Umm Qasr really soon.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 4, 2019 19:15:06 GMT
93 – Blowback
Israeli Mossad operations in Syria had a long history. There had been successes and failures when operations were conducted inside this neighbouring nation, one which, like all of the others, was an enemy of Israel. Back in the mid-Sixties, Mossad had put one of their spies, the famous Eli Cohen, right at the heart of the regime in Damascus for several years where he’d fatally undermined Syrian security. There had been talk at the time of him becoming Syrian defence minister… until the Syrians caught him and he was executed. Mossad had people inside Syria since. None rose as high and fast as Cohen had done nor had the access to which he had gained, but they weren’t caught. They were Syrian nationals too, not Israelis successfully passing themselves off as Syrians. With its spies spread in positions throughout the regime and elements of the military, Mossad believed that they had a good understanding of the intention of the Assad regime not to go to war unless it was deemed absolutely necessary. There was too the belief that the Mossad knew the full extend of Syrian cooperation with Iraq. Mossad was correct on the first matter but didn’t have the full picture with the second: their people didn’t know enough detail.
The latest supply of Scud missiles & launchers that Iraq had secured from Soviet sources landed in Latakia unmolested despite Israeli initial intentions of destroying them aboard ship at-sea. Once there, the Syrians took four of the missiles away as Assad’s price. The rest of the cargo then moved onwards. It was to go via road across Syria under the guardianship of the Syrian military until it reached the border with Iraq where it would be handed off to them. There was no Iraqi presence in Syria – even unarmed personnel – because despite the cooling of tensions in recent years, the two nations were friends, not allies. The Soviets had some of their people present though. The GRU had intelligence officers who moved with the one convoy for the trip to the Iraqi frontier. In Damascus, there was a suspicion that the Israelis might try something and so they had increased the initial projected security for the weapons transfer as well as making other changes when it came to routing. The senior GRU man had suggested that the cargo be split up into two, even three different convoys which would take separate journeys across Syria. There was disagreement from Damascus on this. They would rather keep everything together to protect against attack.
The convoy moved through Syria and Israel, watching its progress through several means, moved to strike. There had been some consideration in Tel Aviv given to calling of the operation once Iran and Iraq were at war once again. Rashid was focused on his war with Khomeini, no longer aiming the break apart the Coalition which attacking Israel. The doves on this issue of not striking were argued against by the hawks who pointed to what Rashid had done with the Scud missiles that he had. He had used them to attack Israel in an unprovoked attack and these attacks had been something which they had been unable to stop. Next up, he had used his Scuds for chemical weapons strikes against Iranian cities. There was nothing to suggest that should he get this latest batch of weapons, that he wouldn’t use them against Israel. He could even fill them with gas too. Perhaps he would just focus on Iran, but should Israel really take that chance? The operation was all set up and the plan was for a limited action that it was hoped wouldn’t seriously blowback on Israel. Mossad was already at work where some of the blame for the strike would be put on Iran too. Framing Iran for helping might not work, it was acknowledged, but it was to be tried.
Israel struck on August 19th.
Commandos raided the Syrian column in a near perfect attack where the alert Syrians were still taken completely by surprise. The senior commander was among the first casualties, ones which Israel aimed to keep low. Rather than slaughtering all of those Syrians which they had trapped so effectively, the Israelis were here to blow up those missiles and their launchers though. That they did with sappers using small but powerful charges. Other commandos kept the Syrians pinned down with gunfire from covered positions.
After less than five minutes, the last of the targeted weapons which were supposed to be soon in Iraqi hands were blown up and the Israelis were pulling out. They had one man dead (whose body they were taking with them) and two more injured but everything else had gone right. The intelligence provided had appeared to be spot on. It was at that point when Syrian armed helicopters showed up. These were Mil-24 Hinds. Nothing in the mission brief had said anything about them being on-call to come in as urgent support. Mossad had missed that… as well as other things. The pair of Hinds caught the Israelis when they were most exposed. There was a rally point near to the ambush site which they were heading to where helicopters of their own were meant to pick them up. Out in the open, they came under attack from above. One commando fired an anti-armour rocket – an unguided weapon used to take on armoured cars – up at an attacking Hind but failed to get it. Others, not as quick as their comrade, set up the more effective man-portable SAMs sent along with the weapons load from the mission which had been brought along should the worst happen and the Syrians come after them with aircraft. A couple of those missiles were launched and they did get one of the helicopters with a fatal hit to bring it down. By then though, the Hinds had done their worst. The other one flew off. Whether it would come back soon enough wasn’t known.
Six men had been killed by cannon & rocket fire and there were another eight injured. The commando team limped to the rally site, a hidden location where they were to wait for a big transport helicopter – an American made Sea Stallion fitted with external fuel tanks plus plentiful self-defence equipment – to arrive. Meanwhile, they monitored other Syrian military activity in the general area. The convoy hadn’t been heavily escorted in-close but the Syrians had their locally based armed forces on alert along large parts of the route. Some of the commandos feared that the helicopter might not reach them… Yet it did. Flying low and seemingly very dangerously, the Sea Stallion arrived. Men, alive and dead, were taken aboard. There was a detachment of medics aboard who were there in case they had to treat casualties. Maybe a handful had been expected in a worse case scenario. There were ten commandos who all needed medical attention.
On the way out, that surviving Syrian Hind showed up. It was quick to go after the Israeli helicopter. Taking it out would have been a major success. This wasn’t to be. A flight of Israeli F-16s – four of them; two flying high and two down low – came in and one of them took out the helicopter with a missile shot. Another F-16 did something which many would consider was really quite unnecessary but which mission orders stated was acceptable in the right circumstances. The right circumstances were should there be anti-aircraft fire which threatened the exfil. There was the launch of a couple of SAMs and some fire from anti-aircraft guns. However, the Sea Stallion was already out of danger. Bombs were dropped all over the ambush site, plenty of them.
Syrians were killed in this and so too were several GRU officers. Mossad’s pre-mission intelligence brief had said nothing at all about there being Soviets with the convoy because their spies in Syria didn’t know that. Now a trio of them were dead, killed at Israeli hands.
That limited blowback which Tel Aviv had wanted wasn’t to be. Assad had just seen his country invaded with the loss of dozens of military personnel, away from the ambush site too when the Israelis shot down a pair of MiGs on their way out. This wasn’t something that he could ignore. He asked his military chiefs to present options for an appropriate response against Israeli interests.
Up in Moscow, they didn’t react well to the killing of their people down in Syria. They didn’t know the exact sequence of events which saw this happen in terms of why the Israelis had done what they did with that bombing raid, yet that didn’t matter. There was at once a determination among the Politburo to hit back. Retaliatory military options were presented to them with haste and approved just as quick. They would teach the Israelis a lesson about the consequences of killing their people and, in addition, send a warning to the Americans too about how ready they were to act. Like what those in Tel Aviv had wanted, this was supposed to be limited and a situation which Moscow would control. Further escalation wasn’t desired. Yet it would come.
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amir
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Post by amir on Oct 5, 2019 2:00:00 GMT
This could go bad for Israel. Picking on the local kids on the block is one thing, getting in a fight with the heavyweight boxer down the street is another. At this point it’s how much of a message do the Soviets want to send to the Israelis and will the US (which they won’t) have the good sense to stay out of it?
On another note I just realized 3d ACR is there with 18th Corps. The fun fact is they were the only unit outside Germany equipped with the M1A1 at this time (and the first unit to equip with M1A1 in 1985). 24th Mech is still M1; 197th Mech, 157th Mech, 2/9 ID, and 8-40AR are M60A3. 3d ACR and 24th Mech (less part of 197th) are M2/M3 Bradley equipped; 197th, 157th, 2/9 ID are all M113. The scout platoon in 8-40 also has the M113. Of course the USMC is still using M60A1! 3d ACR and 24th Mech should be able to fight at a day/night tempo nobody else in theatre can match as long as the fuel and ammo holds- lesson of Desert Storm was that logistics were the limiting factor for VII Corps operations.
On the Artillery front, 18th FA BDE, 24th Mech, and 9th ID have all fielded their MLRS systems. So... the counter-battery fight will have a dynamic the Iranians, Iraqis, and whomever else aren’t ready for.
A second order effect of all this is that 3rd ACR was part of III Corps in the REFORGER Plan, tasked with providing advanced covering force for the anticipated corps counterattack that would be the centerpiece of a NORTHAG counteroffensive to restore the IGB. Less the National Guard Roundouts 3d ACR is about 1/8th of III Corps combat power. The US can backfill with one of the ARNG ACRs (107th ACR, 116th ACR, 278th ACR, 163d ACR) at the expense of having to retrain them for the equipment in POMCUS (I’m assuming 3d ACR deployed with its home station equipment since there was no M1A1 prepo for them in the Middle East).
So, when things kick off you’ll have a substitute ACR instead of one that’s trained for the role forever. If I had to pick a best of breed ARNG ACR it would be 278th- they we’re aligned to I Corps for a Pacific Contingency. 107th was aligned against IX Corps, but they didn’t have as high a training tempo as 278th. 116th and 163rd were unaligned and suffered from geographic challenges- they realigned to a less demanding Armored/Mech Brigade role in the late 80s.
To manage the strategic risk, you can realign an ACR away from their tasked mission or take one of the lower tiered units. It will probably be cheaper in an ongoing war to take the better trained unit and realign it, or let bureaucratic inertia take hold and go with the least revision of the plan and pick an unaligned ACR. Either way, lots of time on the ranges at Fort Knox and in the training areas in California or Texas! To include mundane things like training on new radios and kitchen/ration cooking systems; not just on the new slick M1A1s and M3s.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 5, 2019 15:20:28 GMT
This could go bad for Israel. Picking on the local kids on the block is one thing, getting in a fight with the heavyweight boxer down the street is another. At this point it’s how much of a message do the Soviets want to send to the Israelis and will the US (which they won’t) have the good sense to stay out of it? On another note I just realized 3d ACR is there with 18th Corps. The fun fact is they were the only unit outside Germany equipped with the M1A1 at this time (and the first unit to equip with M1A1 in 1985). 24th Mech is still M1; 197th Mech, 157th Mech, 2/9 ID, and 8-40AR are M60A3. 3d ACR and 24th Mech (less part of 197th) are M2/M3 Bradley equipped; 197th, 157th, 2/9 ID are all M113. The scout platoon in 8-40 also has the M113. Of course the USMC is still using M60A1! 3d ACR and 24th Mech should be able to fight at a day/night tempo nobody else in theatre can match as long as the fuel and ammo holds- lesson of Desert Storm was that logistics were the limiting factor for VII Corps operations. On the Artillery front, 18th FA BDE, 24th Mech, and 9th ID have all fielded their MLRS systems. So... the counter-battery fight will have a dynamic the Iranians, Iraqis, and whomever else aren’t ready for. A second order effect of all this is that 3rd ACR was part of III Corps in the REFORGER Plan, tasked with providing advanced covering force for the anticipated corps counterattack that would be the centerpiece of a NORTHAG counteroffensive to restore the IGB. Less the National Guard Roundouts 3d ACR is about 1/8th of III Corps combat power. The US can backfill with one of the ARNG ACRs (107th ACR, 116th ACR, 278th ACR, 163d ACR) at the expense of having to retrain them for the equipment in POMCUS (I’m assuming 3d ACR deployed with its home station equipment since there was no M1A1 prepo for them in the Middle East). So, when things kick off you’ll have a substitute ACR instead of one that’s trained for the role forever. If I had to pick a best of breed ARNG ACR it would be 278th- they we’re aligned to I Corps for a Pacific Contingency. 107th was aligned against IX Corps, but they didn’t have as high a training tempo as 278th. 116th and 163rd were unaligned and suffered from geographic challenges- they realigned to a less demanding Armored/Mech Brigade role in the late 80s. To manage the strategic risk, you can realign an ACR away from their tasked mission or take one of the lower tiered units. It will probably be cheaper in an ongoing war to take the better trained unit and realign it, or let bureaucratic inertia take hold and go with the least revision of the plan and pick an unaligned ACR. Either way, lots of time on the ranges at Fort Knox and in the training areas in California or Texas! To include mundane things like training on new radios and kitchen/ration cooking systems; not just on the new slick M1A1s and M3s. The Soviets are going to go after the Israelis and the US Navy is going to get in the way. It's gonna to be one of the several clashes all coming in a short time frame. Bad news for all there! That is some cracking info on the equipment of those units at the time. It was pretty much what I had in my mind. Yep, the 3ACR has been busy throughout this conflict where they ripped open the Iraqi flank in Saudi then again on Iraqi soil to surround Kuwait. Now they will get their go against the Iranians! Like everyone else, they had to bring their own gear to the Middle East. The dollar hose was sprayed far and wide to establish infrastructure and the locals were helpful but we have seen a stop-start staggered US ground offensive throughout the war. They have only been able to fight short engagements before needing to stop to allow for the supply line to catch up. I'd completely forgotten about MLRS. Let us say it has been used but not dramatically so as it is still a new system and deployment for US Army Europe units takes priority. Taking the 3ACR out of the III Corps ORBAT has come alongside other reductions like the recent decision to send the 5th Infantry Division to the Gulf with the I Corps. National Guard units have been on exercise and are projected to fulfil those roles for REFORGER. There would have been many concerns expressed at the Pentagon and in Europe at this but it has been done. I would go for the 278ACR too. It seems like the best idea. They will have to train on different equipment but it seems best to put them in that REFORGER role. Of course, the Soviet war plan for Europe is to attack ahead of any projected real REFORGER though!
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 5, 2019 15:23:16 GMT
94 – Schwarzkopf’s storm
Iran’s South-West Corps hadn’t gone on the attack. After the failure of their men on the flank in Basra to break through American forces outside that city, the main force had sat waiting. What they were waiting for was something unknown. Maybe for more Iranian forces to come down from the north? Perhaps for the US Army to withdraw? Whatever the reason, they weren’t moving. CENTCOM had them hit with air strikes due to their presence inside Iraq and the clear hostile intent of them. General Crist requested permission from Washington to go on offensive against the SW Corps. The combat power which they had was significant yet would be more dangerous when on the move rather than stationary as it was. He had to wait for those back home to make their minds up on this yet during that time, Crist instructed his subordinate, General Schwarzkopf who was commanding the US XVIII Airborne Corps, to be prepared to strike should that go order come. Schwarzkopf did as he was told. His command was reinforced when the Third US Army transferred units assigned to the US Marines’ I MAF back to the XVIII Corps as well as marshalling other supporting assets too. The Pentagon eventually granted permission after the White House agreed with the Joint Chiefs that the time to strike was ripe. Iran needed to suffer another defeat.
Schwarzkopf struck as soon as possible. The XVIII Corps went storming forward. With the 3rd Cav’ leading the way, the 24th Mechanized Infantry Division was right behind them. XVIII Corps was also joined by the 9th Motorised Infantry Division, the 101st Air Assault Infantry Division and the 157th Brigade coming on as well. Air power – the corps’ own attack helicopters and CENTCOM-assigned aircraft from the US Air Force – was in full support in addition to plentiful artillery with three separate brigades of heavy guns along with what the combat divisions had too. All that he had to hand, Schwarzkopf used against the Iranians. He aimed to beat them where they were on the near side of the Shatt al-Arab and not let them stage a retreat back towards that waterway to make an escape towards Iran. The battle was one which the Americans fought at night-time again. The worst of the heat when fighting in the desert during the height of summer was avoided. Moreover, the XVIII Corps had the experience and the equipment to make the best use of the darkness.
In a seven-hour overnight battle, the XVIII Corps destroyed the SW Corps.
The Iranian 77th Mechanised & 92nd Armoured Division were wiped out. Air assault troopers from the Screaming Eagles (the recent liberators of Kuwait City) cut off any avenue of retreat for them when making landings along the banks of the Shatt al-Arab. They took some losses during their airmobile operations made with helicopters but held their ground. Forward elements of the 3rd Cav’ reached them soon enough after tearing through the Iranians and breaking the SW Corps up into little pieces. The fighting was harder, more bloodier for other XVIII Corps elements. Much of the 9th Motorised was engaged in flank operations to stop the Iranians fleeing deeper into Iraq up the Euphrates Valley but that division’s heavy brigade was right in the thick of the fighting against the Iranian 77th Division. Those Iranians proved a difficult opponent when they were out of their armoured vehicles: inside they were targeted at distance so dismounting was fast done. The 157th Brigade had to assist their fellow American soldiers in going up against the Iranians with close-in fighting, some of which was literally hand-to-hand. Casualties were significant. Elsewhere, the 92nd Division provided less of an opponent than expected. This was considered to be one of Iran’s strongest formations but they were taken apart by what the 3rd Cav’ and air power did to them first before the 24th Mechanized got at them. The Iranians had never fought a battle like this. The US Army knew exactly what it was doing in a combined arms assault, especially with the recent ‘practise’ against the Iraqis. The Iranian divisional commander was taken captive when his headquarters was overrun while all around him his tanks, armoured vehicles and soldiers took an immense battering. The Americans found that the Iranians were capable but too surprised at this all to stop them. A few times when the 92nd Division did manage to fire back, they did well but it wasn’t enough because quickly the 24th Mechanized smothered them.
Before dawn broke the next morning, Iran had inflicted upon it a stunning defeat here in Southern Iraq. The SW Corps was no more. There were other troops elsewhere on both sides of the Iranian-Iraqi border though. They had infantry behind Basra on Iraqi soil and more spread down the Shatt al-Arab where it formed that frontier. The latter fired across the river with shells, rockets and infantry weapons upon the US Marines there. Third Army commander General Chambers received a request afterwards from the I MAF to launch an attack the coming night into Iran. The cities of Abadan and Khorramshahr would be avoided but the 1st Marine Division would enter Iranian territory where there weren’t so many civilians. The geography downstream from those two cities favoured a localised attack with the delta of the mighty Karun River forming multiple islands among the water. It was from them where much of that Iranian fire which was causing casualties among the I MAF was coming. Chambers and Crist both refused permission for that attack though. They saw the disadvantages of attacking an area where Iran had so many troops dug-in and also fear mission creep where the US Marines would have to keep moving onwards as the Iranians wouldn’t quit doing what they were. It was thought that the best idea was to keep the I MAF where it was, in a threatening position where it could conceivably go after Abadan and Khorramshahr rather than just the Karun Delta, to fix the Iranians over there on their own soil in-place. The US Marines would just have to soak up the fire which they were receiving. With the rest of the Third Army, it was going to be another week before the US I Corps arrived in-theatre ready to fight and only then would any more offensive operations be considered. No one in Southern Iraq, Iran or beyond throughout the region would see what else would be happening in the world by then thought to make all these undeveloped plans irrelevant.
Meanwhile, Iran and Iraq were firing missiles against each other with the former also firing missiles elsewhere. Scuds were being used against, flying off in multiple directions. Plenty of them failed to reach where they were going yet others would make it to their destinations to cause death and destruction.
Iraqi Scuds, some with gas warheads, crashed into Iran. Rashid didn’t use them against the Iranian armies invading (those making good progress, not being destroyed like the SW Corps) but against Iranian towns and cities. Tehran and Qom were hit again as well as others. Casualties were horrendous, especially the civilian losses to gas. From the Iranian capital, there would be the fleeing of tens of thousands of people. The authorities didn’t put a stop to it but it wasn’t desired either. There were worries over domestic stability if that went on. Khomeini wasn’t so sure on that like his minions were because he believed that the people wouldn’t protest & organise against the regime while they fled in terror. Whether he would be correct or not, time would tell. Further Iraqi ballistic missiles arrived during the meantime.
Iran fired back against Iraq, using high-explosive warheads for their missiles. Baghdad was hit. This city had faced Saudi missile attacks and also American bombs. Now Iran smashed a couple of dozen Scuds into it. Hundreds were killed and order broke down throughout many parts of the Iraqi capital. Other Iranian missiles went elsewhere. They fired upon Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Those were Coalition nations supporting the war being raged against Iran. American military facilities in them weren’t the targets. It was their cities instead. Kuwait City, Dammam and Dhahran all had already suffered major damage during the conflict with Iraq. Now the Iranians were hitting here. Down in the UAE, there had been a couple of Iraqi air attacks during the Second Gulf War but no missile strikes. Iranian Scuds smashed into Abu Dubai and Dubai. The war had really come home now for the people of the Emirates.
The Americans were unable to stop these strikes. They could do absolutely nothing to defend their allies from Iranian missile attacks upon them. Their own anti-Scud air campaign in Iraq – just like the later Israeli ones – had very limited success in accurately locating the missile launchers. Finding the Iranians ones would be just as difficult, probably more so because the Iranians had more places to hide them. As to directing their air power to that task, that wasn’t currently on the cards. They were looking instead at making air strikes up the eastern side of Iraq, far ahead of where the recent fight on the ground had been against the Iranians outside of Basra. The Iranians were moving forward with speed into Iraq. There was no stopping them from their successful invasion that the Iraqis themselves could achieve. The decision had been made that American air power would intervene in this fight. This would be difficult, even without the ‘unfriendliness’ from Iraq, but it was going to be attempted.
As they started sending aircraft on reconnaissance, fighter & strike missions, the Americans were now putting combat missions deeper into Iraq and to where Soviet forces – previously in Southern Iraq – had moved to in recent weeks. It was also where they were now pulling out from. The withdrawal was something that the United States wasn’t aware of. With the Soviets making use of Iraqi bases, and having supplied Iraq with Soviet-manufactured weapons, the chances of another accidental clash between the two superpowers were going to only increase.
If only Moscow and Washington were talking to each other, they could have made sure that what was certain to come about didn’t. But they weren’t…
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