Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 14, 2019 19:00:27 GMT
On January 1, 2008, the US Pacific States—Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington—all get ISOTed back in time to January 1, 1958. Now stuck 50 years in the past, the uptimers will have to work with a society where the post-WW2 boom was still in swing, TV was the hot new media of the moment, and the permissive society of the late 20th Century onwards has not yet taken shape. And President George W. Bush comes along for the ride to represent them and their interests. What happens next? Here’s a map of the ISOTed Pacific States from Wikipedia.  Thank you in advance, Zyobot |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 14, 2019 19:06:30 GMT
On January 1, 2008, the US Pacific States—Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington—all get ISOTed back in time to January 1, 1958. Now stuck 50 years in the past, the uptimers will have to work with a society where the post-WW2 boom was still in swing, TV was the hot new media of the moment, and the permissive society of the late 20th Century onwards has not yet taken shape. And President George W. Bush comes along for the ride to represent them and their interests. What happens next? Here’s a map of the ISOTed Pacific States from Wikipedia. Thank you in advance, Zyobot Long live the United Pacific states, as i doubt 2008 America can successfully integrate with 1958 America, |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 14, 2019 20:16:45 GMT
On January 1, 2008, the US Pacific States—Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington—all get ISOTed back in time to January 1, 1958. Now stuck 50 years in the past, the uptimers will have to work with a society where the post-WW2 boom was still in swing, TV was the hot new media of the moment, and the permissive society of the late 20th Century onwards has not yet taken shape. And President George W. Bush comes along for the ride to represent them and their interests. What happens next? Here’s a map of the ISOTed Pacific States from Wikipedia. Thank you in advance, Zyobot Long live the United Pacific states, as i doubt 2008 America can successfully integrate with 1958 America,
It would be difficult. You have a radically different culture and political climate and their going to be very averse to supporting S Vietnam I suspect. They could have a nasty shock in terms of maintaining a lot of their economic and infrastructure but as usual if they can get over that they have such a huge technological lead over everybody else. Since they also have the bulk of the USN in the Pacific - there may be some 1958 ships based elsewhere but their lacking easy access to facilities and dockyards unless some 1958 facilities, say in Guam or the Philippines are still available. The latter probably are but are US territories such as Guam and Wake may also be included in the ISOT??
The up-timers are going to have a hell of a lot of information about social and political events as well as technological advances. I wonder what would be the impact on their future careers of news about Kennedy's drug problems and womanising and Nixon's Watergate scandal for instance. Also how will the lives of people such as Martin Luther King be changed by news of what they 'would' have done. I lot of dirty laundary is going to be made available for many people. [Thinking in terms of Britain you could see the last of the Cambridge spies exposed a few years earlier with luck. Also information on the 60's onwards could speed up or delay social and political change]
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 15, 2019 3:14:14 GMT
One person in the AH.com version of this thread speculates that '58 America should be up to speed with the Pacific States fifty years from the ISOT. What do you guys think of this prospect? And even if that were possible, the here and now (or rather, then and there)--once the dust settles and it's confirmed that yes, the 2008 Pacific States were indeed sent back to the same date in 1958--will soon be rife with tensions and outright conflict. Between opposite and often imcompatible views on civil rights, the permissive society, etcetera, the uptimers and downtimers will take a good while to reach agreement over important issues. There's also 2008 technology that they'll disagree about rightful management, i.e. the Pacific States refusing to hand over legislation of their TV, internet and other communications and media to downtimer authorities. I also wonder how IP would work in this scenario. For one, I bet that the uptimers will exempt themselves from patents that applied in '58, since many of them have already expired from their perspective. However, copyright--especially because of digital technologies that allow for the quick, easy and even pirated distribution of such content across the another thing to address. I'm unsure what would be done about trademarks. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 15, 2019 15:45:38 GMT
One person in the AH.com version of this thread speculates that '58 America should be up to speed with the Pacific States fifty years from the ISOT. What do you guys think of this prospect? And even if that were possible, the here and now (or rather, then and there)--once the dust settles and it's confirmed that yes, the 2008 Pacific States were indeed sent back to the same date in 1958--will soon be rife with tensions and outright conflict. Between opposite and often imcompatible views on civil rights, the permissive society, etcetera, the uptimers and downtimers will take a good while to reach agreement over important issues. There's also 2008 technology that they'll disagree about rightful management, i.e. the Pacific States refusing to hand over legislation of their TV, internet and other communications and media to downtimer authorities. I also wonder how IP would work in this scenario. For one, I bet that the uptimers will exempt themselves from patents that applied in '58, since many of them have already expired from their perspective. However, copyright--especially because of digital technologies that allow for the quick, easy and even pirated distribution of such content across the another thing to address. I'm unsure what would be done about trademarks.
There's definitely a lot of things to sort out between the two Americas, as well as with the rest of the world. It does seem likely that unless relations go really, really badly the 58 US and hopefully other areas will be pretty much up to speed with the Pacific states {PS} within 50 years, i.e. 2008 OTL. Its a lot easier to catch up than trail-blaze, especially if the PS - or elements of - are willing to give aid in helping in this. Of course the social and political as well as the economic disruption and possible devastation that will be cause on both sides of the ISOT are going to be huge. This ignores the potential of someone doing something really, really stupid such as triggering a nuclear exchange which I think and hope is unlikely.
Given we're coming up to the 50th anniversary of a very famous event I wonder if 1958 US will still take up Kennedy's challenge [albeit its not been made yet but they will learn of it from the up-timers] of putting men on the moon by the end of the 60's. If so and assuming the PS help or at least make available info and technology by whatever means, what the landings will look like and how they might differ to OTL?
On a more local and cultural issue I heard somewhere that it was about this time that John Lennon and Paul McCartney 1st met up. Image their reaction to fairly soon being swamped with uptime news reports and music producers and say John's response to some questions, such as "who the hell's Ringo Starr?" 
Similarly there are going to be huge issues with a lot of work done after 1958 by people who have versions in the 1958 world. Since their obviously from a parallel universe I could see the PS or at least their legal people claiming their different people and have no rights to anything their equivalent in the world the PSs came from produced.
Another issue is how much property and other assets are owned by people on one side of the ISOT in the other. What's going to be the situation with a lot of companies in the PSa who had loans, share issues etc in their 2008 US that no longer exist and if they want to work with the 1958 US now face considerable different legal and economic structures?
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Jul 17, 2019 8:23:16 GMT
Many famous TV/Movie/music entertainment people will be gone as 1958 California/Hollywood is now in 2008.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 17, 2019 14:40:00 GMT
Many famous TV/Movie/music entertainment people will be gone as 1958 California/Hollywood is now in 2008. Do not think the case as Zyobot did not mention that in his first post. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 17, 2019 17:48:57 GMT
Many famous TV/Movie/music entertainment people will be gone as 1958 California/Hollywood is now in 2008. Do not think the case as Zyobot did not mention that in his first post. You’re right that I didn’t explicitly note that until now, but mullauna is right about 1958 Hollywood getting replaced by its 2008 counterpart (since that’s the case with the whole of California, among other states). For that reason, I’d guess that a preeminent source of downtimer entertainment has disappeared forever, though I’m unsure if there were other major areas that produced it at the time. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 17, 2019 18:22:17 GMT
Do not think the case as Zyobot did not mention that in his first post. You’re right that I didn’t explicitly note that until now, but mullauna is right about 1958 Hollywood getting replaced by its 2008 counterpart (since that’s the case with the whole of California, among other states). For that reason, I’d guess that a preeminent source of downtimer entertainment has disappeared forever, though I’m unsure if there were other major areas that produced it at the time. The British also have a movie industrie in 1958, but if that not helps, then 2008 movie studios just need to dig true their old archives and release movies that where yet to be released from 1958 onwards, i doubt showing them a movie like Avengers Endgame is a good idea, it might be to much for them for a period. |
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Jul 17, 2019 18:39:57 GMT
Zyobot, 2008 Hollywood actors being expected to adapt themselves to 1958 Western World mores. Even some teen Disney and Nickelodeon sitcoms would be unacceptable to 1958 America, particularly the teenage girls wearing trousers and being "uppity" to the boys wanting to romance them - and that's just the white starlets like Rowan Blanchard. I doubt an "ethnic" or an African American 2008 actor would even be bought a Coca-Cola by the local audience in 1958 Alabama.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 17, 2019 18:50:07 GMT
Zyobot , 2008 Hollywood actors being expected to adapt themselves to 1958 Western World mores. Even some teen Disney and Nickelodeon sitcoms would be unacceptable to 1958 America, particularly the teenage girls wearing trousers and being "uppity" to the boys wanting to romance them - and that's just the white starlets like Rowan Blanchard. I doubt an "ethnic" or an African American 2008 actor would even be bought a Coca-Cola by the local audience in 1958 Alabama. And you have done it again mullauna , I made it clear that I did not want you to bring up young girls any more. It was the only thing I asked from you. This thread was doing so fine about regular discussion about how movies would look like in 1958. You already earned a kick last time for ignoring my warnings and advice on not to post topics or posts related to young children. This is your last chance. You are kicked for 7 days. I do hope you learn from this and heed my advice on what not to post when an admin or mod tells you. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 18, 2019 17:32:35 GMT
To get us back on track here, I wonder how the two Presidents—Dwight Eisenhower and George Bush, Jr. to be specific—might get along. The latter may have been unpopular for certain decisions he made during his 2000s-era tenure, but I doubt that he’s in much of a position to, say, invade somewhere else at the moment.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 18, 2019 19:08:11 GMT
One other social/health issue that is bound to cause big disputes between the two US's and have an impact on the rest of the world. How will 1958 respond to health reports on the effects of smoking? The big tobacco companies are going to block as much as possible but with also details of how some of them sought to down-play the dangers OTL when they knew a lot more than they were letting on that could be fairly explosive.
Other environmental issues are also likely to be important although I can't really see the up-timers making much progress on global warming in the short term anyway. Coal and oil - I don't think gas was so important then - are too important, both for the established industrial powers and those new ones trying to set up.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 18, 2019 19:46:50 GMT
One other social/health issue that is bound to cause big disputes between the two US's and have an impact on the rest of the world. How will 1958 respond to health reports on the effects of smoking? The big tobacco companies are going to block as much as possible but with also details of how some of them sought to down-play the dangers OTL when they knew a lot more than they were letting on that could be fairly explosive.
Other environmental issues are also likely to be important although I can't really see the up-timers making much progress on global warming in the short term anyway. Coal and oil - I don't think gas was so important then - are too important, both for the established industrial powers and those new ones trying to set up.
In regards to the first, I agree that downtime tobacco companies will suppress information that points to its products being lethally unhealthy, which would've been easier to achieve with just mainly radio, TV and print media for the general public to get their news from, as opposed to the (albeit now gap-laden) internet that the uptimers brought with them in the ISOT. Plus, even without said suppression, it'll be exceedingly difficult to get most '58 people to quit that nasty habit since they're so thoroughly accustomed to it. On the second issue you raise, I don't know what the exact solution is. But I'm sure there will be efforts to curtail climate change and the like ahead of time. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 18, 2019 22:46:41 GMT
One other social/health issue that is bound to cause big disputes between the two US's and have an impact on the rest of the world. How will 1958 respond to health reports on the effects of smoking? The big tobacco companies are going to block as much as possible but with also details of how some of them sought to down-play the dangers OTL when they knew a lot more than they were letting on that could be fairly explosive.
Other environmental issues are also likely to be important although I can't really see the up-timers making much progress on global warming in the short term anyway. Coal and oil - I don't think gas was so important then - are too important, both for the established industrial powers and those new ones trying to set up.
In regards to the first, I agree that downtime tobacco companies will suppress information that points to its products being lethally unhealthy, which would've been easier to achieve with just mainly radio, TV and print media for the general public to get their news from, as opposed to the (albeit now gap-laden) internet that the uptimers brought with them in the ISOT. Plus, even without said suppression, it'll be exceedingly difficult to get most '58 people to quit that nasty habit since they're so thoroughly accustomed to it. On the second issue you raise, I don't know what the exact solution is. But I'm sure there will be efforts to curtail climate change and the like ahead of time.
Yes I think the TTL 1958 world will have a better future in terms of environmental problems compared to ours simply because the 2008 territories not only know a lot about the problems but also a fair number of potential solutions, including alternative energy systems, greater fuel efficiency, how to replace HFCs to minimise the ozone depletion etc. However its going to cause a hell of a lot of problems for many vested interests in the 1958 world and its people as so many things their used to are suddenly deeply unhealthy to them or the world as a whole. Also your probably going to get a lot of hostility in the 2nd and 3rd worlds in terms of people arguing its a trick to prevent others catching up.
Just remembered as well there's a little problem for the US developing on Cuba. I wonder what the up-timers will tell them and how the 1958 US reacts? Stepping in with massive force to try and prevent Castro's successful revolution, allowing it and trying to win him over rather than becoming an opponent or what?
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