James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Apr 4, 2019 21:32:03 GMT
Following his first escape from Elba and the Battle of Waterloo, the deposed Napoleon ended up on St. Helena. This was quite the prison and he was well-guarded. There were all sorts of schemes from supporters, admirers and crazy people to free him for a wide variety of reasons & motives.
Can he be freed by any of those? Where does he go? What could he do? Does Britain move heaven and earth to go after him - if it isn't back to France let us say - or just put on a show of effort if he ends up elsewhere in the world: the Americas, Africa or Asia?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,433
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 4, 2019 21:40:08 GMT
Following his first escape from Elba and the Battle of Waterloo, the deposed Napoleon ended up on St. Helena. This was quite the prison and he was well-guarded. There were all sorts of schemes from supporters, admirers and crazy people to free him for a wide variety of reasons & motives. Can he be freed by any of those? Where does he go? What could he do? Does Britain move heaven and earth to go after him - if it isn't back to France let us say - or just put on a show of effort if he ends up elsewhere in the world: the Americas, Africa or Asia? He might go to America: What If Napoleon Had Come To America?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,857
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Apr 4, 2019 22:57:08 GMT
Following his first escape from Elba and the Battle of Waterloo, the deposed Napoleon ended up on St. Helena. This was quite the prison and he was well-guarded. There were all sorts of schemes from supporters, admirers and crazy people to free him for a wide variety of reasons & motives. Can he be freed by any of those? Where does he go? What could he do? Does Britain move heaven and earth to go after him - if it isn't back to France let us say - or just put on a show of effort if he ends up elsewhere in the world: the Americas, Africa or Asia? He might go to America: What If Napoleon Had Come To America?
Must admit I only seem to get some discussion of fairly recent political events by that link? Can't see anything apart Napoleon or anything historical.
Have hear that, I believe shortly before he died there was an attempt to rescue him by supporters of the rebels against Spanish rule in southern America - although have a feeling that might have been a factor in one of the later Richard Sharpe novel.
One point however is what sort of condition would he be in because his health seemed to be declining before Waterloo then definitely in his 2nd exile so he might not have been a great military threat anywhere, although I suspect Britain and other powers would be unlikely to take such a risk.
Latin America or the US would seem to be the most likely options, both for geographical and political reasons. However while some of his early actions may make liberals and revolutionaries think kindly of him would he be able to shake off the autocratic nature of his later years as emperor? If not his welcome could quickly wear out. Ditto if he was made a military figure and fought some bloody battles as again in his later years he often got involved in some massive bloodbaths and the relatively small manpower resources of the rebel states especially could find this too costly. Although if he managed to get some quick and relatively cheap victories he might win through. However whether he would then try to seize power as an emperor again and how much other powers might support Spain in that case I don't know.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,433
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2019 7:28:12 GMT
Must admit I only seem to get some discussion of fairly recent political events by that link? Can't see anything apart Napoleon or anything historical. Have hear that, I believe shortly before he died there was an attempt to rescue him by supporters of the rebels against Spanish rule in southern America - although have a feeling that might have been a factor in one of the later Richard Sharpe novel.
One point however is what sort of condition would he be in because his health seemed to be declining before Waterloo then definitely in his 2nd exile so he might not have been a great military threat anywhere, although I suspect Britain and other powers would be unlikely to take such a risk. Latin America or the US would seem to be the most likely options, both for geographical and political reasons. However while some of his early actions may make liberals and revolutionaries think kindly of him would he be able to shake off the autocratic nature of his later years as emperor? If not his welcome could quickly wear out. Ditto if he was made a military figure and fought some bloody battles as again in his later years he often got involved in some massive bloodbaths and the relatively small manpower resources of the rebel states especially could find this too costly. Although if he managed to get some quick and relatively cheap victories he might win through. However whether he would then try to seize power as an emperor again and how much other powers might support Spain in that case I don't know.
This article better then: What if Napoleon had fled to the US?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,857
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2019 13:46:58 GMT
Must admit I only seem to get some discussion of fairly recent political events by that link? Can't see anything apart Napoleon or anything historical. Have hear that, I believe shortly before he died there was an attempt to rescue him by supporters of the rebels against Spanish rule in southern America - although have a feeling that might have been a factor in one of the later Richard Sharpe novel.
One point however is what sort of condition would he be in because his health seemed to be declining before Waterloo then definitely in his 2nd exile so he might not have been a great military threat anywhere, although I suspect Britain and other powers would be unlikely to take such a risk. Latin America or the US would seem to be the most likely options, both for geographical and political reasons. However while some of his early actions may make liberals and revolutionaries think kindly of him would he be able to shake off the autocratic nature of his later years as emperor? If not his welcome could quickly wear out. Ditto if he was made a military figure and fought some bloody battles as again in his later years he often got involved in some massive bloodbaths and the relatively small manpower resources of the rebel states especially could find this too costly. Although if he managed to get some quick and relatively cheap victories he might win through. However whether he would then try to seize power as an emperor again and how much other powers might support Spain in that case I don't know.
This article better then: What if Napoleon had fled to the US?
I wonder if its less changing his mind inexplicably or simply facing up to the reality of the very tight blockade Britain had installed and the fact that with his power in France collapsing he might end up getting executed by the returning Bourbon monarchy or simply strung up by angry French.
Not sure if there was any unrest in Texas during the Spanish period, other than by the native Indian population. The writer might be concatenating it with the later revolt by American settlers in the 1830's against Mexican rule. By 1815 the Mexican revolution was under way but whether Napoleon would be able to make a successful intervention to take control of it I don't know. It was a very large are with many parts being distant from the densely populated capital region/central valley of Mexico. Also given that the war had been ongoing for quite a while would the mines which generated so much of Mexico's wealth in the colonial period still have been too badly damaged? Or as I said a Napoleon making himself emperor of Mexico encouraged European intervention? It nearly happened OTL with conservative states seeking to restore Spanish rule to their colonies but Britain blocked it with the strength of the RN. If Napoleon is looking to build up another empire then they might well step aside.
Going further afield the idea of his gaining control of all of Latin America from Mexico southwards seems highly unlikely. Even apart from foreign interference its such a huge area with many regions with their own identities and long distances and travel times from any capital region that I can't see it holding together for any length of time. I suspect he would have problems holding the 1820 Mexico together after the initial driving out of the Spanish, although increasing concerns about American encroachment may help him here.
Furthermore there is the question of which Napoleon would this be. The energetic young general who did force on many conquered areas a lot of reforms or the autocratic emperor of the French who ruled a police state kept afloat economically by stationing his army aboard and continual warfare? Or a tired and faltering man who, prematurely aged by his earlier life gave such a limp performance at Waterloo and seems to have faded quickly in exile - even accounting for the possibility of arsenic poisoning from the wallpaper.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,433
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 5, 2019 14:39:56 GMT
I wonder if its less changing his mind inexplicably or simply facing up to the reality of the very tight blockade Britain had installed and the fact that with his power in France collapsing he might end up getting executed by the returning Bourbon monarchy or simply strung up by angry French. Not sure if there was any unrest in Texas during the Spanish period, other than by the native Indian population. The writer might be concatenating it with the later revolt by American settlers in the 1830's against Mexican rule. By 1815 the Mexican revolution was under way but whether Napoleon would be able to make a successful intervention to take control of it I don't know. It was a very large are with many parts being distant from the densely populated capital region/central valley of Mexico. Also given that the war had been ongoing for quite a while would the mines which generated so much of Mexico's wealth in the colonial period still have been too badly damaged? Or as I said a Napoleon making himself emperor of Mexico encouraged European intervention? It nearly happened OTL with conservative states seeking to restore Spanish rule to their colonies but Britain blocked it with the strength of the RN. If Napoleon is looking to build up another empire then they might well step aside. Going further afield the idea of his gaining control of all of Latin America from Mexico southwards seems highly unlikely. Even apart from foreign interference its such a huge area with many regions with their own identities and long distances and travel times from any capital region that I can't see it holding together for any length of time. I suspect he would have problems holding the 1820 Mexico together after the initial driving out of the Spanish, although increasing concerns about American encroachment may help him here. Furthermore there is the question of which Napoleon would this be. The energetic young general who did force on many conquered areas a lot of reforms or the autocratic emperor of the French who ruled a police state kept afloat economically by stationing his army aboard and continual warfare? Or a tired and faltering man who, prematurely aged by his earlier life gave such a limp performance at Waterloo and seems to have faded quickly in exile - even accounting for the possibility of arsenic poisoning from the wallpaper.
I wonder how the British are going to react ore even the French, they must be thinking, o no not again.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,857
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2019 15:44:24 GMT
I wonder if its less changing his mind inexplicably or simply facing up to the reality of the very tight blockade Britain had installed and the fact that with his power in France collapsing he might end up getting executed by the returning Bourbon monarchy or simply strung up by angry French. Not sure if there was any unrest in Texas during the Spanish period, other than by the native Indian population. The writer might be concatenating it with the later revolt by American settlers in the 1830's against Mexican rule. By 1815 the Mexican revolution was under way but whether Napoleon would be able to make a successful intervention to take control of it I don't know. It was a very large are with many parts being distant from the densely populated capital region/central valley of Mexico. Also given that the war had been ongoing for quite a while would the mines which generated so much of Mexico's wealth in the colonial period still have been too badly damaged? Or as I said a Napoleon making himself emperor of Mexico encouraged European intervention? It nearly happened OTL with conservative states seeking to restore Spanish rule to their colonies but Britain blocked it with the strength of the RN. If Napoleon is looking to build up another empire then they might well step aside. Going further afield the idea of his gaining control of all of Latin America from Mexico southwards seems highly unlikely. Even apart from foreign interference its such a huge area with many regions with their own identities and long distances and travel times from any capital region that I can't see it holding together for any length of time. I suspect he would have problems holding the 1820 Mexico together after the initial driving out of the Spanish, although increasing concerns about American encroachment may help him here. Furthermore there is the question of which Napoleon would this be. The energetic young general who did force on many conquered areas a lot of reforms or the autocratic emperor of the French who ruled a police state kept afloat economically by stationing his army aboard and continual warfare? Or a tired and faltering man who, prematurely aged by his earlier life gave such a limp performance at Waterloo and seems to have faded quickly in exile - even accounting for the possibility of arsenic poisoning from the wallpaper.
I wonder how the British are going to react ore even the French, they must be thinking, o no not again.
He might well have finally outlasted his welcome in France, at least for a while after another period of bloody warfare sees defeat again and a big occupation by multiple armies. However if he started building a large empire in the Americas it would make the Bourbon monarchy even more determined to support the Spanish in regaining their colonies. Ditto I suspect the rest of the conservative continental powers. Britain might be less willing to oppose them, especially since a French controlled Latin America is likely to be closed to most British commerce and would probably be a threat to their colonies in the region.
|
|
spanishspy
Fleet admiral
Posts: 10,366
Likes: 1,587
|
Post by spanishspy on Apr 6, 2019 4:17:06 GMT
I wonder how the British are going to react ore even the French, they must be thinking, o no not again.
He might well have finally outlasted his welcome in France, at least for a while after another period of bloody warfare sees defeat again and a big occupation by multiple armies. However if he started building a large empire in the Americas it would make the Bourbon monarchy even more determined to support the Spanish in regaining their colonies. Ditto I suspect the rest of the conservative continental powers. Britain might be less willing to oppose them, especially since a French controlled Latin America is likely to be closed to most British commerce and would probably be a threat to their colonies in the region.
I once read a book on Scottish history which was discussing the Jacobite Rising. Bonnie Prince Charlie by that point had already made several attempts for the throne, and when he landed for the last time there was a guy who told him to go home because he had tried and failed so many times. I would figure France would do the same to Napoleon.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,033
Likes: 49,433
|
Post by lordroel on Apr 6, 2019 8:29:44 GMT
I would figure France would do the same to Napoleon. What allow him to go home to France o retire.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Member is Online
Posts: 24,857
Likes: 13,238
|
Post by stevep on Apr 6, 2019 10:53:03 GMT
I would figure France would do the same to Napoleon. What allow him to go home to France o retire.
Lordroel
I think what Spanishspy meant was that they told him to B****r Off as "we don't want another failed uprising with all the chaos, death and disruption it causes". In Charle's case it would probably mean back to France where he was supported by the French monarchy or as he later did to Rome where he was made a Cardinal.
In Napoleon's place its more awkward as the actual place of his birth is Corsica which is French territory so Paris [and numerous other powers] are unlikely to want him there.
At least unless by him you meant Charles? In which case he managed to escape with the aid of supporters after his defeat.
Steve
|
|