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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 2, 2019 0:36:50 GMT
One of the more interesting options for the 1960s is the modernisation of the Royal Israeli Air Force in the light of Arab unification and expansion. The first aircraft to be replaced will be the Canberras and the Fairey Deltas; the latter are supersonic fighter/interceptors broadly analogous to the F-100 and Mirage III, with all three emerging in the early-mid 50s from the Korean War rearmament.
There is some interest in the F-111 to replace the Canberra; this would provide a very powerful augmentation to the TSR-2 force.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2019 3:48:39 GMT
The Strategic Missile Command, are they armed with conventional missiles ore nuclear.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 2, 2019 4:25:18 GMT
The Black Arrows are nuclear, whilst the Blue Waters are conventional or chemical at this stage.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2019 4:46:33 GMT
The Black Arrows are nuclear, whilst the Blue Waters are conventional or chemical at this stage. Are they fully under Israeli command and control. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 2, 2019 8:33:21 GMT
They are, in the same manner as Canadian, Australian, South African and Indian nuclear weapons. There are some similarities to the British nuclear situation in the early 1960s - nominally independent, but intrinsically associated with that of a much larger ally - with some key differences coming from the situation of Dark Earth, whereby the military and strategic forces of the Commonwealth are complimentary and interchangeable.
Israel, having developed as a Dominion since the 1920s, is rather more anglicised, although now, like India, it is starting to spread its own wings. It is growing close to the United States by virtue of ties both religious and political.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 3, 2019 14:27:10 GMT
South African Order of Battle 1961/2
South African Army
6 divisions, 156,893 personnel
Special Operations Command
South African SAS Regiment
South African Commando Brigade
1 South African Commando
2 South African Commando
3 South African Commando
4 South African Commando
32 Commando Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
South African Airborne Brigade
1st South African Parachute Regiment
2nd South African Parachute Regiment
3rd South African Parachute Regiment
4th South African Parachute Regiment
44 Parachute Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
GHQ Strategic Reserve
3rd Royal South African Guards
3rd South African Grenadier Guards
3rd Royal South African Dwarven Fusiliers
3rd Royal South African Regiment
3rd South African Irish Regiment
3rd Royal Natal Carbineers
3rd Queen's South African Rifles
4th Royal South African Regiment
4th King's Own South African Light Infantry
4th Rand Light Infantry
Royal South African Life Guards: 54 Chieftain MBT
Royal South African Dragoon Guards: 54 Chieftain MBT
South African Light Horse: 54 Super Centurion
Natal Light Horse: 54 Super Centurion
I South African Corps
Johannesburg Hussars: 56 x Scimitar CVR, 24 x Royalist LT
Basutoland Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
11 Heavy Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 8" SPGH
30 Superheavy Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 9.2" SPGH
40 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6" SPG
48 Heavy Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 8" SPGH
52 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 English Electric Thunderbirds
53 Rocket Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 12" MRL
2nd South African Infantry Division
4th Brigade
1st Royal South African Guards: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
2nd South African Grenadier Guards: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Transvaal Regiment : 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
8th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Super Centurion MBT
5th Brigade
1st South African Highland Rifles: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Cape Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
2nd Royal South African Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
11th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Super Centurion MBT
6th Brigade
1st Natal Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
2nd King's Own South African Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Imperial Light Horse: 54 Super Centurion MBT
Orange River Cavaliers: 54 Super Centurion MBT
Bechuanaland Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
22 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
50 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
Divisional Artillery
3 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
4 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6” SPH
12 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
29 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
3rd South African Armoured Division
7th Brigade
2nd Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
5th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
2nd Natal Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Kimberly Rifles: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
8th Brigade
2nd Transvaal Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th South African Highland Rifles: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
3rd Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
9th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
9th Brigade
2nd Royal South African Guards: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Royal Natal Carbineers: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Royal South African Hussars: 54 Chieftain MBT
Bechuanaland Horse: 54 Chieftain MBT
Natal Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
33 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
38 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
Divisional Artillery
10 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
21 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
26 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6” SPH
47 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
4th South African Armoured Division
13th Brigade
2nd Orange River Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
2nd Royal South African Dwarven Fusiliers: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Kimberly Lancers: 54 Chieftain MBT
Royal Cape Dragoons: 54 Chieftain MBT
14th Brigade
1st Transvaal Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Natal Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
7th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
12th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
15th Brigade
2nd Queen's South African Rifles: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
3rd Royal Durban Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Transvaal Hussars: 54 Chieftain MBT
Damara Horse: 54 Chieftain MBT
Zululand Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
17 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
39 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
Divisional Artillery
9 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
19 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
20 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6” SPH
37 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
II South African Corps
Durban Lancers: 56 x Scimitar CVR, 24 x Royalist LT
Border Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
28 Heavy Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 8" SPGH
36 Heavy Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 8" SPGH
42 Superheavy Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 9.2" SPGH
46 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6" SPG
51 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 English Electric Thunderbirds
54 Rocket Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 12" MRL
1st South African Infantry Division
1st Brigade
1st Royal South African Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st Royal Natal Carbineers: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Royal South African Lancers: 54 Super Centurion MBT
Cape Town Horse: 54 Super Centurion MBT
2nd Brigade
1st King's Own South African Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st Rand Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Orange River Regiment
1st Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Super Centurion MBT
3rd Brigade
1st Royal South African Dwarven Fusiliers: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st South African Irish Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
3rd Natal Regiment
Rand Cavaliers: 54 Super Centurion MBT
Transvaal Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
15 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
27 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
Divisional Artillery
1 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6” SPH
2 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
5 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
18 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
5th South African Infantry Division
10th Brigade
2nd South African Highland Rifles
2nd Cape Regiment
3rd Transvaal Regiment
South West African Dragoons: 54 Super Centurion
11th Brigade
1st Kimberly Rifles
1st Orange River Regiment
2nd Rand Light Infantry
Natal Lancers: 54 Super Centurion
12th Brigade
2nd Kimberly Rifles
2nd Royal Natal Carbineers
2nd Royal Durban Light Infantry
10th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Super Centurion
Umvoti Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
14 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
45 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
Divisional Artillery
7 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6”
8 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
16 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
34 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
6th South African Infantry Division
16th Brigade
3rd Cape Regiment
4th Royal South African Guards
4th South African Irish Regiment
Kimberly Light Horse: 54 Super Centurion
17th Brigade
3rd Kimberly Rifles
3rd South African Highland Rifles
4th Royal South African Dwarven Fusiliers
Orange River Light Horse: 54 Super Centurion
18th Brigade
3rd Rand Light Infantry
3rd King's Own South African Light Infantry
4th Queen's South African Rifles
6th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Super Centurion
Cape Mounted Rifles: 56 Sabre ACR, 24 Stag APC
35 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
49 Air Defence Regiment, RSAA: 24 x PT.428
Divisional Artillery
13 Medium Regiment, RSAA: 24 x 6”
24 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
25 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
43 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x 25pdr
19th South African Brigade (Egypt)
2nd South African Irish Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
3rd Orange River Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Royal Durban Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th South African Grenadier Guards: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
4th Royal South African Tank Regiment: 54 Chieftain MBT
Royal South African Cavaliers: 54 Chieftain MBT
6 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
31 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
20th South African Brigade (Germany)
1st South African Grenadier Guards: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st Queen's South African Rifles: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st Royal Durban Light Infantry: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
1st Cape Regiment: 42 FV-432 Saxon APC
Mafeking Light Horse: 54 Chieftain MBT
Royal South African Dragoons: 54 Chieftain MBT
41 Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RSAA: 16 x 42mm Marksman, 48 x 25mm Sharpshooter
23 Field Regiment, RSAA: 32 x Abbot 25pdr SPG
Army Reserve: 6 divisions, 289,678 personnel
4 Infantry Divisions
2 Armoured Divisions
Commandos: 356,287 personnel
284 Commandos
Royal South African Air Force
32 Squadrons, 816 aircraft, 64,584 personnel
138 Hawker Hunters
93 Fairey Deltas
79 de Havilland Spectres
68 Supermarine Sunstar
54 English Electric Lightning
79 Vickers Victoria
48 Bristol Britannia
87 English Electric Canberras
56 Vickers Valiants
24 Avro Vulcan
54 Percival Jet Provosts
36 Folland Wasps
24 Blue Streak ICBMs
96 Bristol Blue Envoy SAMs
South Africa
1 Group
No. 2 Squadron: 24 Avro Vulcans (RSAAF Trichardtsdorp)
No. 10 Squadron: 24 Vickers Valiants (RSAAF Queenstown)
No. 17 Squadron: 24 Vickers Valiants (RSAAF Upington)
No. 20 Squadron: 24 English Electric Canberras (RSAAF Bloemspruit)
No. 22 Squadron: 24 English Electric Canberras (RSAAF Bloemspruit)
No. 33 Squadron: 24 Blue Streak ICBMs (Kalahari Desert)
No. 34 Squadron: 32 Bristol Blue Envoy SAMs (RSAAF Trichardtsdorp)
2 Group
No. 1 Squadron: 24 English Electric Lightning (RSAAF Lyttleton)
No. 5 Squadron: 24 Supermarine Sunstars (RSAAF Overberg)
No. 8 Squadron: 24 de Havilland Spectres (RSAAF Durban)
No. 9 Squadron: 24 Supermarine Sunstars (RSAAF Lyttleton)
No. 11 Squadron: 24 Hawker Hunters (RSAAF Bloemspruit)
No. 12 Squadron: 24 de Havilland Spectres (RSAAF Durban)
No. 15 Squadron: 24 Fairey Deltas (RSAAF Windhoek)
No. 18 Squadron: 24 Supermarine Sunstars (RSAAF Overberg)
No. 21 Squadron: 24 de Havilland Spectres (RSAAF Durban)
No. 23 Squadron: 24 Fairey Deltas (RSAAF Francistown)
No. 35 Squadron: 32 Bristol Blue Envoy SAMs (Victoria)
No. 36 Squadron: 32 Bristol Blue Envoy SAMs (Cape Town)
3 Group
No. 14 Squadron: 24 Bristol Britannias (RSAAF Kroonstad)
No. 19 Squadron: 24 Bristol Britannias (RSAAF Kroonstad)
No. 29 Squadron: 24 Vickers Victorias (RSAAF Grahamstown)
No. 31 Squadron: 24 Vickers Victorias (RSAAF Kroonstad)
No. 32 Squadron: 24 Vickers Victorias (RSAAF Grahamstown)
4 Group
No. 26 Squadron: 24 Percival Jet Provosts (RSAAF Randfontein)
No. 27 Squadron: 24 Folland Wasps (RSAAF Langebaanweg)
No. 28 Squadron: 24 Percival Jet Provosts (RSAAF Standerton)
No. 30 Squadron: 24 Folland Wasps (RSAAF Langebaanweg)
Rhodesia
No. 13 Squadron: 24 English Electric Canberras (RRAF New Sarum)
No. 16 Squadron: 24 Hawker Hunters (RRAF Thornhill)
Egypt
No. 24 Squadron: 24 Fairey Deltas (RAF Ismaila)
No. 25 Squadron: 24 Hawker Hunters (RAF Ismaila)
Germany
No. 4 Squadron: 24 Fairey Deltas (RAF Wildenrath)
No. 3 Squadron: 24 Hawker Hunters (RAF Norvenich)
No. 6 Squadron: 24 English Electric Lightning (RAF Wildenrath)
No. 7 Squadron: 24 Hawker Hunters (RAF Norvenich)
Royal South African Air Force Reserve: 349 aircraft, 47,993 personnel
124 Hawker Hunters
82 Supermarine Swifts
78 de Havilland Vixens
65 Gloster Javelins
Royal South African Navy: 43 ships, 347 aircraft, 45,693 personnel
2 Battleships
2 Aircraft Carriers
4 Cruisers
10 Destroyers
15 Frigates
4 Submarines
2 Amphibious Cruisers
4 Dock Landing Ships
Simonstown
BB: Good Hope
CV: Transvaal
CA: Durban, Victoria
DD: Windhoek, Pietermaritzburg, Upington, East London, Port Elizabeth, Kimberley
FF: Somerset, Beaufort, Walvis Bay, Potchefstroom, George, Harrismith, King William's Town, Newcastle
SS: Andries Brink, Leander Jameson, Jan Smuts, Frederick Selous
LPD: Rorke's Drift, Blood River
LSD: Isandlwana, Ulundi, Bergendal, Perdeberg
Alexandria
BB: South Africa
CA: Johannesburg
DD: Mafeking, Ladysmith
FF: Cathcart, Fraserburg
Singapore
CV: Natal
CA: Capetown
DD: Bloemfontein, Stellenbosch
FF: Queenstown, Richard's Bay, Richmond, Port Alfred, Grahamstown
SS: Louis Botha, Cecil Rhodes
Royal South African Naval Air Service: 157 aircraft
56 Avro Shackletons
28 Blackburn Buccaneers
25 Short Sunderlands
18 Fairey Rotodynes
16 Short Sydneys
14 Hawker Siddeley Nimrods
5 Squadron: 16 Avro Shackletons (Simonstown)
6 Squadron: 12 Fairey Rotodynes (Simonstown)
13 Squadron: 12 Hawker Siddeley Nimrods (Simonstown)
20 Squadron: 24 Blackburn Buccaneer (Simonstown)
9 Squadron: 12 Short Sunderlands (Walvis Bay)
2 Squadron: 16 Avro Shackletons (Durban)
14 Squadron: 12 Short Sunderlands (Durban)
8 Squadron: 12 Short Sydneys (Port Elizabeth)
17 Squadron: 16 Avro Shackletons (Port Elizabeth)
Royal South African Navy Fleet Air Arm: 190 aircraft
42 Fairey Rangers
36 Blackburn Buccaneers
35 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers
27 Fairey Gannets
32 Westland Wessex
18 Fairey Rotodynes
CVG 1 (HMSAS Natal)
1 Squadron: 16 Fairey Rangers
4 Squadron: 16 Blackburn Buccaneers
7 Squadron: 16 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers
10 Squadron: 8 Westland Wessex
15 Squadron: 8 Fairey Gannet ASW
‘A’ Flight, 19 Squadron: 4 Fairey Rotodyne AEW
CVG 2 (HMSAS Transvaal)
3 Squadron: 8 Westland Wessex
11 Squadron: 16 Fairey Rangers
12 Squadron: 16 Blackburn Buccaneers
16 Squadron: 16 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers
18 Squadron: 8 Fairey Gannet ASW
‘B’ Flight, 19 Squadron: 4 Fairey Rotodyne AEW
Royal South African Marines: 2 brigades, 10,982 personnel
1st Royal South African Marine Brigade (Simonstown)
1st Royal South African Marine Battalion
2nd Royal South African Marine Battalion
3rd Royal South African Marine Battalion
4th Royal South African Marine Battalion
1st Royal South African Marine Artillery Regiment: 32 x 25pdr
1st Royal South African Marine Tank Regiment: 64 Super Crusader MBT
2nd Royal South African Marine Brigade (Durban)
5th Royal South African Marine Battalion
6th Royal South African Marine Battalion
7th Royal South African Marine Battalion
8th Royal South African Marine Battalion
2nd Royal South African Marine Artillery Regiment: 32 x 25pdr
2nd Royal South African Marine Tank Regiment: 64 Super Crusader MBT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2019 14:35:15 GMT
South African Order of Battle 1961/2Commandos: 356,287 personnel284 Commandos Royal South African Air Force First, great South Africa Orbat, second, what does the 284 Commandos mean. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 3, 2019 15:07:55 GMT
Each Commando is a battalion sized unit of light infantry made up of older men who are past immediate reserve recall in the manner of 24-32 year olds. They are a second/third line home defence reserve force in South Africa, albeit a very effective one. Think of them as the South African equivalent of the Home Guard.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2019 15:09:30 GMT
Each Commando is a battalion sized unit of light infantry made up of older men who are past immediate reserve recall in the manner of 24-32 year olds. They are a second/third line home defence reserve force in South Africa, albeit a very effective one. So that are 284 battalions than what you are saying. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 3, 2019 15:39:10 GMT
Yes, there are that many battalions, along with a fair few independent companies and smaller detachments.
South Africa doesn't face a threat to the homeland at this time and has quite the focus on expeditionary warfare in the Middle East and Europe, like a few other Commonwealth states.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2019 15:41:25 GMT
Yes, there are that many battalions, along with a fair few independent companies and smaller detachments. South Africa doesn't face a threat to the homeland at this time and has quite the focus on expeditionary warfare in the Middle East and Europe, like a few other Commonwealth states. And a navy that makes OTL South Africa jealous. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 3, 2019 17:09:54 GMT
Yes, there are that many battalions, along with a fair few independent companies and smaller detachments. South Africa doesn't face a threat to the homeland at this time and has quite the focus on expeditionary warfare in the Middle East and Europe, like a few other Commonwealth states. And a navy that makes OTL South Africa jealous.
Other than the lack of a SSBN its a navy that the present UK would be jealous of.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 3, 2019 23:37:12 GMT
I'm not sure whether South Africa would be jealous or simply in shock at the different nature of the country; it depends when we are talking about.
The raw numbers are larger than the RN of 2019, but are based around conventional gun destroyers and frigates. The carriers are getting old and are quite small.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 4, 2019 8:49:17 GMT
I'm not sure whether South Africa would be jealous or simply in shock at the different nature of the country; it depends when we are talking about. The raw numbers are larger than the RN of 2019, but are based around conventional gun destroyers and frigates. The carriers are getting old and are quite small. Do the South Africans have plans to replace them. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 4, 2019 9:33:07 GMT
I'm not sure whether South Africa would be jealous or simply in shock at the different nature of the country; it depends when we are talking about. The raw numbers are larger than the RN of 2019, but are based around conventional gun destroyers and frigates. The carriers are getting old and are quite small.
True, this is a ~1960's fleet but in terms of numbers it shows how the RN has fallen in importance.
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