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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Nov 17, 2018 5:21:54 GMT
The Rhineland, and especially, the Ruhr Valley, is a good source of coal and other minerals that historically helped Germany become a massive economic power. Surprisingly, the Dutch never bothered to expand a bit deeper into Central Europe, only restricting themselves to the Seventeen Provinces and later on having a short lived union with Belgium and Luxembourg.
So what if the Netherlands had tried to expand into the Rhine River and Ruhr Valley regions? For one thing, would it allow the Netherlands to tap into the hidden economic potential that will let them compete equally on par with England and France?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2018 9:13:28 GMT
The Rhineland, and especially, the Ruhr Valley, is a good source of coal and other minerals that historically helped Germany become a massive economic power. Surprisingly, the Dutch never bothered to expand a bit deeper into Central Europe, only restricting themselves to the Seventeen Provinces and later on having a short lived union with Belgium and Luxembourg. So what if the Netherlands had tried to expand into the Rhine River and Ruhr Valley regions? For one thing, would it allow the Netherlands to tap into the hidden economic potential that will let them compete equally on par with England and France?
Well with some differences it shouldn't be impossible for them to keep Belgium, thinking more during the 16thC when the initial revolt occurred than the post 1815 short lived union. That would give them a lot of resources when it comes to the industrial age but also puts them even more in the front line in wars against either Hapsburg or Bourbon expansion. A number of sources I've read have said that the prime reason for the Dutch decline was the need for heavy spending on an army to defend their borders as well as a fleet to protect their colonies and trade. Like France they needed to maintain both arms at high levels but even with a good commercial and fiscal infrastructure this was beyond their more limited resources. It probably didn't help that while we had a common monarch a number of Dutch reforms helped modernise the British economy, including the forming of the Bank of England which significantly improved Britain's potential as a rival to both France and the Netherlands.
I mention that because while it seems difficult that would form a population/resource base for later expansion into western Germany. Say if France has further religious wars or other divisions and doesn't emerge as the dominant power in Europe for say another century and the Hapsburg's make further attempts to centralise the HRE but are defeated in a series of wars. This includes Dutch forces becoming drawn into this as part of the counter alliance and taking over some of the territory in the region. The Ruhr, especially as its on the east bank could be a bit far and it would make the state overwhelmingly German in character which might cause unrest in the non-German elements of the state as national identities change.
Such a success would make the 'Netherlands' a larger and more powerful state but it would also give it substantial commitments in terms of needing to protect those lands from challenging from both east and west. Therefore it might find it still lacks the resources of a larger France, when that gets effectively unified or of a Britain without direct continental commitments. Also with regards to Britain especially its in such a superior geographical position that as long as it has a fleet roughly equal in size to the Dutch it can seriously impact if not cripple Dutch trade. Furthermore by about 1750 the Dutch were having problems because the shallow waters of their coastline meant they couldn't build and operate ships as large as Britain and France, with deeper ports could and were left behind to some degree. The Dutch fleet was a tough opponent as late as 1797 when Duncan had a hard battle to defeat them at Camperdown but the ships on both sides were smaller in size and gunpower than those Britain and France were using elsewhere.
As such a 'Dutch' state spreading so far into W Germany is possible but probably pretty difficult and would mean, at least until industrialisation enabled use of the Ruhr resources and dredging of deeper channel, it probably wouldn't be able to go toe to toe with either France or Britain. Even in that case if it has a powerful French or German nation on either flank, or worse on both, its probably going to be committed more to continental power than maritime status.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 18, 2018 8:18:35 GMT
The best way to do it would be to have centralisation attempts elsewhere fail. This would mean a weaker France in particular. The Empire was sufficiently disunited already. Of course, to stop French unity you have to go far back and I would play either the religious angle or somehow strengthen the position of the nobility. Perhaps put them into a few blocs that somehow settle into something more permanent. The best way to do this would probably be religion.
It's important to keep in mind that in tge seventeenth and later centuries, a large part of the Dutch population consisted of recent immigrants from Germany (in some cities this reached 50%). This could ease etgno-cultural tensions. Especially if there are some changes in the religious dimension and most hold the same faith, presumably some variant of Calvinism.
With that, and in a more disunited environment, there might be advances down the Rhine, and local cities might want to seek the security of an attachment to the more stable Republic to the west. It however would be a major untertaking, although, before the Industrial Revolution, the Ruhr wasn't that densely populated.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 18, 2018 10:41:19 GMT
The best way to do it would be to have centralisation attempts elsewhere fail. This would mean a weaker France in particular. The Empire was sufficiently disunited already. Of course, to stop French unity you have to go far back and I would play either the religious angle or somehow strengthen the position of the nobility. Perhaps put them into a few blocs that somehow settle into something more permanent. The best way to do this would probably be religion. It's important to keep in mind that in tge seventeenth and later centuries, a large part of the Dutch population consisted of recent immigrants from Germany (in some cities this reached 50%). This could ease etgno-cultural tensions. Especially if there are some changes in the religious dimension and most hold the same faith, presumably some variant of Calvinism. With that, and in a more disunited environment, there might be advances down the Rhine, and local cities might want to seek the security of an attachment to the more stable Republic to the west. It however would be a major untertaking, although, before the Industrial Revolution, the Ruhr wasn't that densely populated.
Another option, although it wouldn't really be the Netherlands, is that the 14thC Duchy of Burgundy survives and thrives. Especially if say 'France' is split between Plantagenet and Valois, i.e. basically a continuing 100 YW which keeps the threat from the west sharply reduced. If it took over Lorraine peaceably, which could have happened then spends time expanding eastwards and you get an advance to and then beyond the Rhine.
Or something that keeps closer to the OTL Netherlands, as above but when the reformation comes the Burgundian core lands in the south stay Catholic and possibly become part of the Hapsburgs as OTL but the north goes Protestant as OTL but with more success. A united Netherlands that then spreads east and south that could end up taking the Ruhr and other areas.
Didn't realise there were so many immigrants from Germany, presumably in the 17thC in part fleeing the chaos and religious persecution of the 30 YWs and other such events?
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 18, 2018 12:51:20 GMT
The best way to do it would be to have centralisation attempts elsewhere fail. This would mean a weaker France in particular. The Empire was sufficiently disunited already. Of course, to stop French unity you have to go far back and I would play either the religious angle or somehow strengthen the position of the nobility. Perhaps put them into a few blocs that somehow settle into something more permanent. The best way to do this would probably be religion. It's important to keep in mind that in tge seventeenth and later centuries, a large part of the Dutch population consisted of recent immigrants from Germany (in some cities this reached 50%). This could ease etgno-cultural tensions. Especially if there are some changes in the religious dimension and most hold the same faith, presumably some variant of Calvinism. With that, and in a more disunited environment, there might be advances down the Rhine, and local cities might want to seek the security of an attachment to the more stable Republic to the west. It however would be a major untertaking, although, before the Industrial Revolution, the Ruhr wasn't that densely populated.
Another option, although it wouldn't really be the Netherlands, is that the 14thC Duchy of Burgundy survives and thrives. Especially if say 'France' is split between Plantagenet and Valois, i.e. basically a continuing 100 YW which keeps the threat from the west sharply reduced. If it took over Lorraine peaceably, which could have happened then spends time expanding eastwards and you get an advance to and then beyond the Rhine.
Or something that keeps closer to the OTL Netherlands, as above but when the reformation comes the Burgundian core lands in the south stay Catholic and possibly become part of the Hapsburgs as OTL but the north goes Protestant as OTL but with more success. A united Netherlands that then spreads east and south that could end up taking the Ruhr and other areas.
Didn't realise there were so many immigrants from Germany, presumably in the 17thC in part fleeing the chaos and religious persecution of the 30 YWs and other such events?
Those options could also work yes. The immigrants at first came because of the thirty years war, but they mostly came for economic reasons. The Netherlands were far wealthier than the German countries, and there simply were far more opportunities for almost all layers of the population. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 18, 2018 13:00:41 GMT
Another option, although it wouldn't really be the Netherlands, is that the 14thC Duchy of Burgundy survives and thrives. Especially if say 'France' is split between Plantagenet and Valois, i.e. basically a continuing 100 YW which keeps the threat from the west sharply reduced. If it took over Lorraine peaceably, which could have happened then spends time expanding eastwards and you get an advance to and then beyond the Rhine.
Or something that keeps closer to the OTL Netherlands, as above but when the reformation comes the Burgundian core lands in the south stay Catholic and possibly become part of the Hapsburgs as OTL but the north goes Protestant as OTL but with more success. A united Netherlands that then spreads east and south that could end up taking the Ruhr and other areas. Didn't realise there were so many immigrants from Germany, presumably in the 17thC in part fleeing the chaos and religious persecution of the 30 YWs and other such events?
Those options could also work yes. The immigrants at first came because of the thirty years war, but they mostly came for economic reasons. The Netherlands were far wealthier than the German countries, and there simply were far more opportunities for almost all layers of the population. All this taking reminds me of a small What If book called in Dutch- BUREN?. Een alternatieve geschiedenis van Nederland (English: Neighbors, a Alternative History of the Netherlands).  |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 18, 2018 14:59:08 GMT
Those options could also work yes. The immigrants at first came because of the thirty years war, but they mostly came for economic reasons. The Netherlands were far wealthier than the German countries, and there simply were far more opportunities for almost all layers of the population. All this taking reminds me of a small What If book called in Dutch- BUREN?. Een alternatieve geschiedenis van Nederland (English: Neighbors, a Alternative History of the Netherlands). I need that book! |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 18, 2018 15:02:00 GMT
All this taking reminds me of a small What If book called in Dutch- BUREN?. Een alternatieve geschiedenis van Nederland (English: Neighbors, a Alternative History of the Netherlands). I need that book! It is made up of two timelines, one where the Netherlands becomes part of Germany and one where parts of Germany become part of the Netherlands. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Nov 18, 2018 22:04:25 GMT
It is a bit of a shame that the Netherlands got its wealth only throughout mercantile trade and never through larger industrialization. They could have become one of those economic giants a lot longer, and a larger Netherlands that included the Rhineland and the Ruhr Valley region would have prevented them from being eclipsed by Britain.
A fractured France through religion may also work, but what about a divided England as well? Perhaps a few rebellious nobles would rise in response to an Anglo-Spanish union may also happen. Nerfing England and France might do the trick.
On the other hand, could a larger Netherlands also attract other minor German statelets into its orbit, resulting in a formation of a proto-"West German" state?
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 19, 2018 13:49:30 GMT
It is a bit of a shame that the Netherlands got its wealth only throughout mercantile trade and never through larger industrialization. They could have become one of those economic giants a lot longer, and a larger Netherlands that included the Rhineland and the Ruhr Valley region would have prevented them from being eclipsed by Britain. A fractured France through religion may also work, but what about a divided England as well? Perhaps a few rebellious nobles would rise in response to an Anglo-Spanish union may also happen. Nerfing England and France might do the trick. On the other hand, could a larger Netherlands also attract other minor German statelets into its orbit, resulting in a formation of a proto-"West German" state? I have to confess that in my TL, I nerved them all at least a little. And such a stronger Dutch state could indeed gain German satellites, and with their interest in free trade, that could (with a lot of luck) have worked out to be a kind of West-Germany. I mean, if you listen to the dialects of for instance Cologne, it's almost Dutch. |
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