The Templin Institute

Steve,

It did seem a confluence of several factors pushing the situation that not only was the general setting both grim and dark, but that all the authorities were corrupt, all religious groups were exploitative etc.

I wasn't necessarily aiming to drag you down rabbit hole; rather, it was just a nice side effect. Judge Dredd was one of several products from 2000AD, apparently

The British games and gamebooks in particular were extremely formative of my tastes in both fantasy and roleplaying games. I started off on Fighting Fantasy in the 1980s, then expanded fanatically to Lone Wolf, dabbled in Warhammer and read some Dragon Warriors, before shifting into AD&D, Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms between 11-15 and discovering Gemmell at 14.

Their influence comes across in some parts of my writing. I love the historicity and urban settings, love the attention to detail and can go along with some degree of the black humour - I don't have as much liking for Blackadder/Monty Python type humour all these years later, but can appreciate some punning and humour. Not everything has to be Tolkien. However, I do not like it where it basically becomes outright satire, as the fantasy writers and game designers are rarely good enough as satirists to carry it off. The elements cited as characteristic of Grim Dark on the second link don't offend me in and of themselves and they can work well enough; what I don't like about Grim Dark is the pointlessness/hopelessness of the world. Not only is everything doomed, but that's a good thing, as everyone is really, really bad and the world is horrible.

There is no room for heroism in such games, just that type of grey mercenary behaviour that is beloved of modern fantasy writers and computer game designers. I give a slight pass to the works of the 1980s as they were subverting the early tropes of heroic fantasy, given that the modern variation of the form was still emerging, but 40 years later, it isn't subversion - it is laziness and plain poor writing.

If the only alternate to Grimdark is Noblebright - an optimistic world where noble heroes quest and defeat evil - then there might be a point to it. However, there isn't.

If we think of the genres in a graph, there is a general pattern of:

Noblebright Grimbright

Nobledark Grimdark

Noblebright: Superman and Star Trek
Nobledark: The world is a terrible and dangerous place, but there are good and noble people. They can make a difference and defeat evil, although this usually comes at a great cost.
Grimbright: The world is a nasty place and our heroes can't really effect it, but they try anyway. Some good can be accomplished on a micro basis. The Fallout universe fits here
Grimdark: Warhammer 40k, Game of Thrones/ASoIAF

Works are differently placed on the continuum. My preference lies in the Noblebright and Nobledark quadrants; some of the examples listed below gel with me

1d4chan.org/wiki/Noblebright#8chan_Anon_Explains_the_Grim.2FNoble_and_Dark.2FBright_Spectrum

Simon