Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128 
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Sept 23, 2018 21:53:31 GMT
It endured years of warlordism, a communist takeover, and a mix of Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution that produced carnage, chaos, and national catastrophe. Yet mere decades after Deng Xiaoping's reforms, China has emerged as one of the most formidable nations of our time.
As a nominally communist power with an increasingly capitalistic economy, the People's Republic is among America's great challengers in this day and age. Whether it can surpass or replace them is up for debate, but no matter what, it's indisputable that China has turned itself around.
But could the Asian giant have travelled a different path? Is it at all possible for China to have become--and stayed--a laissez-faire (not guided capitalist) world power that lasts to the present day?
Thank you in advance,
Zyobot
|
|
spanishspy
Fleet admiral
Posts: 10,366
Likes: 1,586
|
Post by spanishspy on Sept 25, 2018 1:50:17 GMT
You need to make China stable enough during the early twentieth century such that a middle class develops to promote such policies. Maybe no Wuchang Uprising and the Qing Dynasty reforms in a constitutional manner enough to make that the case?
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Sept 30, 2018 9:01:11 GMT
You need to make China stable enough during the early twentieth century such that a middle class develops to promote such policies. Maybe no Wuchang Uprising and the Qing Dynasty reforms in a constitutional manner enough to make that the case? I know only a smattering of Chinese history, but is it possible for the Qing to have adopted laissez-faire reforms in the 17th/early 18th Century? That way, they have time to develop infrastructure, industrial capacity and a culture of commerce. Maybe accepting England's trade terms the first time would be helpful. |
|
futurist
Banned
Banned
Posts: 837
Likes: 12
|
Post by futurist on Oct 4, 2018 21:19:31 GMT
What about having Chiang win the Chinese Civil War? Could that do the trick here?
|
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 4, 2018 21:56:30 GMT
What about having Chiang win the Chinese Civil War? Could that do the trick here? If I'm not mistaken, the Kuomintang supported a more guided-capitalistic model (i.e. nationalized industry and such). So unless they make a U-turn on that or totally liberalize later, I don't know that a Nationalist victory would do it.
That's part of why I asked if we could have 17/18th, perhaps 19th Century China industrialize early and recognize the (comparative) benefits of laissez-faire capitalism to the point where they overwhelming stick with it, all the way to 2018 and beyond.
|
|
futurist
Banned
Banned
Posts: 837
Likes: 12
|
Post by futurist on Oct 4, 2018 21:58:21 GMT
What about having Chiang win the Chinese Civil War? Could that do the trick here? If I'm not mistaken, the Kuomintang supported a more guided-capitalistic model (i.e. nationalized industry and such). So unless they make a U-turn on that or totally liberalize later, I don't know that a Nationalist victory would do it.
That's part of why I asked if we could have 17/18th, perhaps 19th Century China industrialize early and recognize the (comparative) benefits of laissez-faire capitalism to the point where they overwhelming stick with it, all the way to 2018 and beyond.
Did Japan and/or South Korea ever have laissez-faire capitalism? |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 4, 2018 22:01:16 GMT
If I'm not mistaken, the Kuomintang supported a more guided-capitalistic model (i.e. nationalized industry and such). So unless they make a U-turn on that or totally liberalize later, I don't know that a Nationalist victory would do it.
That's part of why I asked if we could have 17/18th, perhaps 19th Century China industrialize early and recognize the (comparative) benefits of laissez-faire capitalism to the point where they overwhelming stick with it, all the way to 2018 and beyond.
Did Japan and/or South Korea ever have laissez-faire capitalism? I'm not sure on that one, but I'm inclined to say no. From what little I know, Asian countries tend to have more government intervention as to "guide" the economy in certain directions rather than let the free market decide.
It's something that I'll have to do much more research on and get back to properly addressing later.
|
|
futurist
Banned
Banned
Posts: 837
Likes: 12
|
Post by futurist on Oct 4, 2018 22:51:39 GMT
Did Japan and/or South Korea ever have laissez-faire capitalism? I'm not sure on that one, but I'm inclined to say no. From what little I know, Asian countries tend to have more government intervention as to "guide" the economy in certain directions rather than let the free market decide.
It's something that I'll have to do much more research on and get back to properly addressing later.
OK. Also, maybe the solution to this is to have Britain colonize China India-style. Of course, Britain would need to avoid developing hard feelings in China or else Chinese nationalists could follow the path of their Indian counterparts and support socialism. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 5, 2018 21:50:44 GMT
I'm not sure on that one, but I'm inclined to say no. From what little I know, Asian countries tend to have more government intervention as to "guide" the economy in certain directions rather than let the free market decide.
It's something that I'll have to do much more research on and get back to properly addressing later.
OK. Also, maybe the solution to this is to have Britain colonize China India-style. Of course, Britain would need to avoid developing hard feelings in China or else Chinese nationalists could follow the path of their Indian counterparts and support socialism. Alright, how free market capitalistic did India ultimately turn out to be? Maybe (and that's a big maybe) that'll be a blueprint for how a British-colonized China might look, economically speaking. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 23,406
Likes: 12,028
|
Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2018 22:02:33 GMT
OK. Also, maybe the solution to this is to have Britain colonize China India-style. Of course, Britain would need to avoid developing hard feelings in China or else Chinese nationalists could follow the path of their Indian counterparts and support socialism. Alright, how free market capitalistic did India ultimately turn out to be? Maybe (and that's a big maybe) that'll be a blueprint for how a British-colonized China might look, economically speaking.
Well even in the colonial period, when Britain's obsession with free trade and laissez faire was at its height it had problems in that India, like Canada after it became a dominion, raising tariff barriers against imports, including from Britain.
|
|
futurist
Banned
Banned
Posts: 837
Likes: 12
|
Post by futurist on Oct 11, 2018 0:08:53 GMT
OK. Also, maybe the solution to this is to have Britain colonize China India-style. Of course, Britain would need to avoid developing hard feelings in China or else Chinese nationalists could follow the path of their Indian counterparts and support socialism. Alright, how free market capitalistic did India ultimately turn out to be? Maybe (and that's a big maybe) that'll be a blueprint for how a British-colonized China might look, economically speaking. India appears to have been largely socialist up to 1991 and then implemented free-market reforms. Of course, I've heard that India might still have a lot of government red tape even right now. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 12, 2018 19:58:55 GMT
I have a idea that, with boatloads of fact-checking and oodles of tweaking, might fit the bill.
I wonder if Peter the Great could "Britainize" Russia circa 1721, as in establish a democratic parliamentary system and provide his people with certain rights and freedoms. Combined with the empire's sheer resources, perhaps this kicks off the Industrial Revolution in the East as well--and the Qing may very well follow suit, though I don't precisely know how to make the latter a practically anarcho-capitalistic superpower who's supreme laissez-fairism lasts well into 2018.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2018 10:34:38 GMT
There's no real way of escaping the Asiatic Mode of Production, whether it occurs from within, or is imposed from without, as the British did in India en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_mode_of_productionI wonder if Peter the Great could "Britainize" Russia circa 1721, as in establish a democratic parliamentary system No autocratic despot ever voluntarily gives up power. Britain needed a long and bloody revolution followed by foreign invasion achieve this state of affairs. And it still wasn't a democracy even then. |
|
Zyobot
Fleet admiral
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,128
Likes: 7,189
|
Post by Zyobot on Oct 14, 2018 13:17:02 GMT
There's no real way of escaping the Asiatic Mode of Production, whether it occurs from within, or is imposed from without, as the British did in India en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_mode_of_productionI wonder if Peter the Great could "Britainize" Russia circa 1721, as in establish a democratic parliamentary system No autocratic despot ever voluntarily gives up power. Britain needed a long and bloody revolution followed by foreign invasion achieve this state of affairs. And it still wasn't a democracy even then. Perhaps Pete has a mind-wracking nightmare about how destructive Russia's future will be if he remains an autocrat, and that's enough to drive him to install a representative government. ...I'm not so sure about the rest, on the other hand. |
|
