futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 20, 2018 1:47:01 GMT
What if Alien Space Bats put Hitler's mind in Kaiser Wilhelm II's body in 1888?
I want to compare the responses that I will get here with the responses to my Hitler-Bismarck thread.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 20, 2018 16:18:50 GMT
What if Alien Space Bats put Hitler's mind in Kaiser Wilhelm II's body in 1888? I want to compare the responses that I will get here with the responses to my Hitler-Bismarck thread.
Well the down side is that its a damned site harder to remove an autocratic monarch than a chancellor who is dependent on that same monarch for his position. As such Hitler/Wilhelm will be in power and causing problems longer.
A lot might depend on his mental state, which isn't going to be very good if its Hitler from say 44/45. Also what [short-term] compromised would he be willing to make with potential future opponents - which since we're talking about Hitler here means just about everybody. Some deal with Russia which includes Russian expansion in the Balkans while he grabs the choice bits of the Austrian empire? If so at which point does he seek to renege on such a deal and attack Russia? Will be try and push some technological advances and if so will he pick the right ones or dead ends that simply aren't practical yet? What would his approach to Britain be - as a potential ally still or the bitter enemy that prevented his success in the 1940s? How much might he react to being in a much younger and healthier body, although there is the withered arm? Also while the German empire has a influential aristocracy and autocratic monarchy the Parliaments do have some power, especially over funding and significant and sometimes vocal opposition to what Wilhelm was doing OTL. Would Hitler, being accustomed to total control, be able and willing to put up with it or seek to organise some sort of military coup? How well would he hide his antisemitism?
I suspect, given how impatient he was most of his life that Hitler would seek to push too many things too far and probably cause a lot of opposition, inside and outside Germany. Also if it gets involved in a major coalition war before the Haber process is developed and fully industrialised and the war lasts more than a few months imperial Germany is going to go down. It simply won't be able to produce the munitions it needs while its opponents can import nitrates from Latin America, at least as long as they haven't seriously upset the UK.
Also any attack on Russia in this period is going to have serious problems in terms of logistics. The Russians are likely to be outfought unit to unit but they can pull back and trade space for time, stretching an German army very, very thin, even without other fronts to consider.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 21, 2018 1:13:15 GMT
What if Alien Space Bats put Hitler's mind in Kaiser Wilhelm II's body in 1888? I want to compare the responses that I will get here with the responses to my Hitler-Bismarck thread.
1. Well the down side is that its a damned site harder to remove an autocratic monarch than a chancellor who is dependent on that same monarch for his position. As such Hitler/Wilhelm will be in power and causing problems longer.
2. A lot might depend on his mental state, which isn't going to be very good if its Hitler from say 44/45. Also what [short-term] compromised would he be willing to make with potential future opponents - which since we're talking about Hitler here means just about everybody. Some deal with Russia which includes Russian expansion in the Balkans while he grabs the choice bits of the Austrian empire? If so at which point does he seek to renege on such a deal and attack Russia? Will be try and push some technological advances and if so will he pick the right ones or dead ends that simply aren't practical yet? What would his approach to Britain be - as a potential ally still or the bitter enemy that prevented his success in the 1940s? How much might he react to being in a much younger and healthier body, although there is the withered arm? Also while the German empire has a influential aristocracy and autocratic monarchy the Parliaments do have some power, especially over funding and significant and sometimes vocal opposition to what Wilhelm was doing OTL. Would Hitler, being accustomed to total control, be able and willing to put up with it or seek to organise some sort of military coup? How well would he hide his antisemitism?
3. I suspect, given how impatient he was most of his life that Hitler would seek to push too many things too far and probably cause a lot of opposition, inside and outside Germany. Also if it gets involved in a major coalition war before the Haber process is developed and fully industrialised and the war lasts more than a few months imperial Germany is going to go down. It simply won't be able to produce the munitions it needs while its opponents can import nitrates from Latin America, at least as long as they haven't seriously upset the UK.
4. Also any attack on Russia in this period is going to have serious problems in terms of logistics. The Russians are likely to be outfought unit to unit but they can pull back and trade space for time, stretching an German army very, very thin, even without other fronts to consider.
1. Yep. Indeed, I don't know if there was actually any way to remove a German monarch this time short of a military coup. I suppose that the German Reichstag could try declaring him to be mentally incapacitated, but they'd need the German Army's approval for this as well as the approval of the German Crown Prince (who would then become Regent for his mentally unstable father). Ultimately, though, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm would try very hard to significantly reduce the risk of the German Reichstag declaring him to be mentally unstable--not necessarily by being cautious, but rather by aggressively cracking down on dissent--through extrajudicial means if necessary. 2. Yes, Hitler's mental state wasn't very good in the end. However, with the possibility of having another chance to rule--except this time, it's 57 years in the past--Hitler's mental state might improve at least a little bit. Also, please keep in mind that Hitler would believe that he has Providence on his side--something which should certainly significantly increase his self-confidence. (After all, how else would Hitler explain being transported back in time 57 years at the very moment when he was on the verge of committing suicide in 1945?) As for Russia and Austria-Hungary, Yes, I do think that Hitler-Wilhelm would try making a deal with Russia very early during his rule (as in, immediately after he comes to power) to partition Austria-Hungary between the two of them. This would probably cause Britain and France to howl to the moon after they get access to this information--but without an additional powerful ally such as the U.S., they're probably not going to be able to do much about this if war is going to break out after the Haber Process is already completed. Speaking of Haber, Hitler-Wilhelm might need to use force to keep him inside of Germany since Hitler-Wilhelm's anti-Semitism (which will probably be openly expressed in this TL) could cause a lot of German Jews--including Fritz Haber--to want to emigrate from Germany. I think that Hitler-Wilhelm is going to leave Britain and France alone in this TL as long as they aren't going to be actively disrupting Germany's plans for territorial expansion in the East. As for a coup, Yes, it's very possible that Hitler-Wilhelm could try launching a military coup in Germany with the support of the right-wing German parties. Of course, such an approach is risky since it could trigger a revolution attempt in Germany, but if the German military is still on his side, Hitler-Wilhelm should be able to defeat any attempted revolutions in Germany. Of course, Hitler-Wilhelm might be generous enough to allow multiparty elections in Germany in this scenario (as in, after his military coup), but these elections will be limited to only government-approved parties. Thus, the left-wing parties as well as probably separatist and autonomist parties (such as the Alsace-Lorraine Party and the Polish Party) are probably going to be barred from running whereas various German right-wing parties would be free to run. I expect that Hitler-Wilhelm would try making a deal with Zentrum (the Catholic Center Party) to make various concessions to German Catholics (such as a concordat with Rome and an end to the Kulturkampf) in exchange for having Zentrum dissolve itself. As for his anti-Semitism, I certainly don't think that Hitler-Wilhelm will hide it too much. I mean, Yes, he certainly isn't going to be murdering German Jews en masse, but he is going to try pushing through anti-Semitic discrimination and also attempt to strip German Jews of their wealth (which he can portray in populist terms as giving money back to the German people from Jewish fat-cats). Basically, Hitler-Wilhelm is going to want to make German Jews poor and make their life sufficiently miserable that as many of them leave Germany as possible. However, what he's not going to want to do is to take his anti-Semitism to such a level that Germany's neighbors militarily intervene against it--which would certainly be the case if Germany tried to commit genocide against its Jews. Also, I expect Hitler-Wilhelm to focus on technologies--especially, but not only, military technologies--which are actually practical at the time that he is proposing them. Indeed, this could result in a somewhat more powerful Germany due to it having a more state-of-the-art military. In addition to this, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm is going to try creating a common German army and to take out the long knives against the ruler of any German state who actually tries to oppose this. Basically, a common German army is easier to manage than an army which consists of the armies of the various German states. Indeed, Hitler-Wilhelm is going to want to curb the authority and autonomy of the various German states as much as possible. 3. Actually, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm would be smart enough to avoid waging war on anyone without the Haber Process already being developed and commercialized. That should occur in the 1910s if Hitler is able to force Haber to remain in Germany and work for him. 4. You know, I wonder if Hitler-Wilhelm would be willing to agree to a trade with France where he is willing to hold a binding plebiscite in Alsace-Lorraine in exchange for France agreeing to make Alsace-Lorraine permanently demilitarized and in exchange for France publicly promising that it will not intervene in any German wars in the East. After all, Hitler lacked a personal attachment to Alsace-Lorraine and, if France is actually willing to go for this, Hitler could use such a move to gain a free hand in the East--either against Austria-Hungary or--later on--against Russia. As for Russian logistics, I think that Hitler would have used the experiences of 1941-1945 from our TL to be more prepared for this. Thus, instead of attempting to take Russia out in one campaign, Hitler-Wilhelm would plan to do it in a war which lasts several years. Also, I would think that Hitler-Wilhelm would be more receptive to using Polish and Ukrainian manpower in his war against Russia than Hitler was in World War II in our TL. Of course, there could still be a lot of massacres of Jews in Russia after a German invasion in this TL--though Hitler-Wilhelm might reluctantly try to halt this violence and these massacres due to his fear that they would trigger a French and/or British military intervention against Germany on Russia's behalf. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 21, 2018 10:49:17 GMT
1. Well the down side is that its a damned site harder to remove an autocratic monarch than a chancellor who is dependent on that same monarch for his position. As such Hitler/Wilhelm will be in power and causing problems longer.
2. A lot might depend on his mental state, which isn't going to be very good if its Hitler from say 44/45. Also what [short-term] compromised would he be willing to make with potential future opponents - which since we're talking about Hitler here means just about everybody. Some deal with Russia which includes Russian expansion in the Balkans while he grabs the choice bits of the Austrian empire? If so at which point does he seek to renege on such a deal and attack Russia? Will be try and push some technological advances and if so will he pick the right ones or dead ends that simply aren't practical yet? What would his approach to Britain be - as a potential ally still or the bitter enemy that prevented his success in the 1940s? How much might he react to being in a much younger and healthier body, although there is the withered arm? Also while the German empire has a influential aristocracy and autocratic monarchy the Parliaments do have some power, especially over funding and significant and sometimes vocal opposition to what Wilhelm was doing OTL. Would Hitler, being accustomed to total control, be able and willing to put up with it or seek to organise some sort of military coup? How well would he hide his antisemitism?
3. I suspect, given how impatient he was most of his life that Hitler would seek to push too many things too far and probably cause a lot of opposition, inside and outside Germany. Also if it gets involved in a major coalition war before the Haber process is developed and fully industrialised and the war lasts more than a few months imperial Germany is going to go down. It simply won't be able to produce the munitions it needs while its opponents can import nitrates from Latin America, at least as long as they haven't seriously upset the UK.
4. Also any attack on Russia in this period is going to have serious problems in terms of logistics. The Russians are likely to be outfought unit to unit but they can pull back and trade space for time, stretching an German army very, very thin, even without other fronts to consider.
1. Yep. Indeed, I don't know if there was actually any way to remove a German monarch this time short of a military coup. I suppose that the German Reichstag could try declaring him to be mentally incapacitated, but they'd need the German Army's approval for this as well as the approval of the German Crown Prince (who would then become Regent for his mentally unstable father). Ultimately, though, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm would try very hard to significantly reduce the risk of the German Reichstag declaring him to be mentally unstable--not necessarily by being cautious, but rather by aggressively cracking down on dissent--through extrajudicial means if necessary. 2. Yes, Hitler's mental state wasn't very good in the end. However, with the possibility of having another chance to rule--except this time, it's 57 years in the past--Hitler's mental state might improve at least a little bit. Also, please keep in mind that Hitler would believe that he has Providence on his side--something which should certainly significantly increase his self-confidence. (After all, how else would Hitler explain being transported back in time 57 years at the very moment when he was on the verge of committing suicide in 1945?) As for Russia and Austria-Hungary, Yes, I do think that Hitler-Wilhelm would try making a deal with Russia very early during his rule (as in, immediately after he comes to power) to partition Austria-Hungary between the two of them. This would probably cause Britain and France to howl to the moon after they get access to this information--but without an additional powerful ally such as the U.S., they're probably not going to be able to do much about this if war is going to break out after the Haber Process is already completed. Speaking of Haber, Hitler-Wilhelm might need to use force to keep him inside of Germany since Hitler-Wilhelm's anti-Semitism (which will probably be openly expressed in this TL) could cause a lot of German Jews--including Fritz Haber--to want to emigrate from Germany. I think that Hitler-Wilhelm is going to leave Britain and France alone in this TL as long as they aren't going to be actively disrupting Germany's plans for territorial expansion in the East. As for a coup, Yes, it's very possible that Hitler-Wilhelm could try launching a military coup in Germany with the support of the right-wing German parties. Of course, such an approach is risky since it could trigger a revolution attempt in Germany, but if the German military is still on his side, Hitler-Wilhelm should be able to defeat any attempted revolutions in Germany. Of course, Hitler-Wilhelm might be generous enough to allow multiparty elections in Germany in this scenario (as in, after his military coup), but these elections will be limited to only government-approved parties. Thus, the left-wing parties as well as probably separatist and autonomist parties (such as the Alsace-Lorraine Party and the Polish Party) are probably going to be barred from running whereas various German right-wing parties would be free to run. I expect that Hitler-Wilhelm would try making a deal with Zentrum (the Catholic Center Party) to make various concessions to German Catholics (such as a concordat with Rome and an end to the Kulturkampf) in exchange for having Zentrum dissolve itself. As for his anti-Semitism, I certainly don't think that Hitler-Wilhelm will hide it too much. I mean, Yes, he certainly isn't going to be murdering German Jews en masse, but he is going to try pushing through anti-Semitic discrimination and also attempt to strip German Jews of their wealth (which he can portray in populist terms as giving money back to the German people from Jewish fat-cats). Basically, Hitler-Wilhelm is going to want to make German Jews poor and make their life sufficiently miserable that as many of them leave Germany as possible. However, what he's not going to want to do is to take his anti-Semitism to such a level that Germany's neighbors militarily intervene against it--which would certainly be the case if Germany tried to commit genocide against its Jews. Also, I expect Hitler-Wilhelm to focus on technologies--especially, but not only, military technologies--which are actually practical at the time that he is proposing them. Indeed, this could result in a somewhat more powerful Germany due to it having a more state-of-the-art military. In addition to this, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm is going to try creating a common German army and to take out the long knives against the ruler of any German state who actually tries to oppose this. Basically, a common German army is easier to manage than an army which consists of the armies of the various German states. Indeed, Hitler-Wilhelm is going to want to curb the authority and autonomy of the various German states as much as possible. 3. Actually, I think that Hitler-Wilhelm would be smart enough to avoid waging war on anyone without the Haber Process already being developed and commercialized. That should occur in the 1910s if Hitler is able to force Haber to remain in Germany and work for him. 4. You know, I wonder if Hitler-Wilhelm would be willing to agree to a trade with France where he is willing to hold a binding plebiscite in Alsace-Lorraine in exchange for France agreeing to make Alsace-Lorraine permanently demilitarized and in exchange for France publicly promising that it will not intervene in any German wars in the East. After all, Hitler lacked a personal attachment to Alsace-Lorraine and, if France is actually willing to go for this, Hitler could use such a move to gain a free hand in the East--either against Austria-Hungary or--later on--against Russia. As for Russian logistics, I think that Hitler would have used the experiences of 1941-1945 from our TL to be more prepared for this. Thus, instead of attempting to take Russia out in one campaign, Hitler-Wilhelm would plan to do it in a war which lasts several years. Also, I would think that Hitler-Wilhelm would be more receptive to using Polish and Ukrainian manpower in his war against Russia than Hitler was in World War II in our TL. Of course, there could still be a lot of massacres of Jews in Russia after a German invasion in this TL--though Hitler-Wilhelm might reluctantly try to halt this violence and these massacres due to his fear that they would trigger a French and/or British military intervention against Germany on Russia's behalf.
I think that if he does another attack on Austria and carves it up your likely to have a western pact including Britain, France and Italy as all three will feel very threatened by such actions. Also if he pushes his antisemitism you are likely to see a fair bit of internal opposition as the Jewish population are fairly well integrated and a lot of Jews leaving. For all that he was an ardent German nationalist this is very likely to include Haber, who is only 20 at the start of this TL and probably a lot of other Jewish talent.
I suspect that attempts to decrease democracy in Germany, while it might work in the short run, is going to be deeply unpopular and weaken Germany a lot in the longer run. Your going to have a lot of liberals leaving the country and a stunting of its technological development as well as probably a lot of rioting and other clashes.
Hitler might push the development of the Haber process, albeit by 'true German' scientists here so it would have a different name but he might not recognise the significance. He knew a lot about the military equipment but at a fairly rudimentary level and given his behaviour during the war he never seemed to realise the importance of sorting out industry and production, being a major factor in the infighting and mismanagement that hindered the German economy in WWII. The fact he might well feel providence is on his side is likely to increase this rashness, albeit countered by his knowledge of how things have gone wrong - if he's willing to admit his rashness was at least partly responsible. As such he might well not wait for it and for other advances. Which may not be critical if Germany and Russia are at war but could well be fatal when the western powers become involved. [Which I suspect would be fairly quickly if after partitioning Austria his Germany is heavily defeating Russia and threatening to make huge annexations in the east. This Germany would be seen as far to threatening and distablishing for Europe].
Hitler might pay more attention to logistics in a war with Russia and he's likely to have a hell of a lot of problems with the German high command if he doesn't but how will he respond to this. If he's Hitler from ~45 then he will remember the 'betrayal' of the attempted assassination and also of the repeated 'failures' of assorted generals in being defeated and in frequently questioning his orders.
All in all I suspect that Hitler/Wilhelm would be a serious disaster for Germany, probably leading to a worse situation than OTL 1918 when the dust settles, unless he is assassinated/deposed before he starts a war with Russia.
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