East and West Berlin 1989-39

mullauna Banned Banned Posts: 376 Likes: 40	East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 16, 2018 12:20:07 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mullauna on Sept 16, 2018 12:20:07 GMT On November 9, 1989. the territory of the two Berlins is sent back to the same date in 1939. Only the two Berlins come: everything outside them is still 1939.

lordroel
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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 16, 2018 12:37:34 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Sept 16, 2018 12:37:34 GMT

Sept 16, 2018 12:20:07 GMT mullauna said:

On November 9, 1989. the territory of the two Berlins is sent back to the same date in 1939. Only the two Berlins come: everything outside them is still 1939.

So there will be the United States Berlin Brigade:

4th Bn, 502d Infantry Regiment, (6x M106, 12x M901, 14x M113, 8x M125).

5th Bn, 502d Infantry Regiment, (6x M106, 12x M901, 14x M113, 8x M125).

6th Bn, 502d Infantry Regiment, (6x M106, 12x M901, 14x M113, 8x M125).

D Company, 40th Armor Regiment, (14x M1A1).

F Company, 40th Armor Regiment, (14x M1A1).

E Battery, 320th Field Artillery Regiment, (8x M109A3).

42d Engineer Company.

42d Postal Unit.

43rd Chemical Detachment.

766th Military Intelligence Detachment.

The French Forces in Berlin (French: Forces Françaises à Berlin):

11e Régiment de Chasseurs (11e RCh) (53x AMX-30B2).

46e Régiment d'Infanterie (46e RI) (70x VAB).

110e Compagnie du Génie (110e CG).

Centre Entrainement de Commando (CEC No 10).

And the British Berlin Infantry Brigade:

Berlin Infantry Brigade HQ & (29th) Signal Regiment, Royal Signals.

1st Btn, King's Regiment, Wavell Barracks, (replaced by 1st Btn, Irish Guards December 1989).

1st Btn, The Light Infantry, Brooks Barracks.

1st Btn, Royal Welch Fusiliers, Montgomery Barracks.

C Squadron, 14th/20th King's Hussars, Smuts Barracks, (18x Chieftain).

38th (Berlin) Field Squadron, Royal Engineers.

6th Troop, 46th (Talavera) Air Defence Battery, 2nd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery, (12x Javelin).

2nd Regiment, Royal Military Police.

246th (Berlin) Provost Company, Royal Military Police, in Helmstedt, mans Checkpoint Alpha.

247th (Berlin) Provost Company, Royal Military Police, mans Checkpoint Bravo and Checkpoint Charlie.

248th German Security Unit, support unit with German personnel.

3rd Squadron, 13th Signal Regiment (Radio), Royal Signals, Signals Intelligence at RAF Gatow.

3rd Intelligence and Security Company, Intelligence Corps.

7 Flight AAC, RAF Gatow, (4x Gazelle AH.1).

Royal Air Force Gatow Station Flight, (2x Chipmunk T10).

Last Edit: Sept 16, 2018 12:38:29 GMT by lordroel

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stevep
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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 16, 2018 17:55:24 GMT

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Post by stevep on Sept 16, 2018 17:55:24 GMT

Not to mention the Soviet forces which I think are still there at that date? Or have they gone by then? Don't think so but could be wrong. The 9th was the day that the border between east and west Germany was formally, if rather chaotically opened so this may not have occurred by the time the ISOT occurs. This probably also means there are a number of E Germans from outside E Berlin who were there to attend the protests.

Obvious question is who of political importance are in Belin on 9-11-39? Even if Hitler and other leading Nazis are elsewhere and can pick up the pieces Germany has lost much of its central government and infrastructure as well as a major industrial base. Instead there's a city that wants nothing to do with the Nazis and is 'garrisoned' by units both from Britain and France, which the Nazi regime is at war with and the Soviet Union - currently basically an ally - and the US, an important neutral.

Lordroel's list doesn't mention air units but probably at least some helicopters in the garrison, or failing that there will be commercial a/c. As such if down-time German forces attack the city they will win eventually given the numbers and lack of supply for the defenders. However should be a decent chance for some up-timers to get out and escape to France or possibly neutral Denmark or the Netherlands. The capture of 1989 Berlin potentially gives Nazi Germany a huge boost in both knowledge and technology but how much they will be able and willing to use I don't know while the costs of such an attack could be cost, as well as the loss of the down-time capital. Also this would mean attacking American and Soviet military units which could cause huge political problems.

A more hopeful route might be that the decapitation of the Nazi state, especially if many of the leading members of the government are there at the time and its replacement by a democratic regime. [Although that could be difficult]. This would drastically change the political situation, especially since while the allies would almost certainly insist on Poland and the Czech republic being restored your unlikely to see the OTL border changes so Germany will be larger, even without avoiding the losses of WWII. Plus it will have access to the majority of the information available in Berlin.

lordroel
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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 16, 2018 18:11:04 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Sept 16, 2018 18:11:04 GMT

Sept 16, 2018 17:55:24 GMT stevep said:

Not to mention the Soviet forces which I think are still there at that date? Or have they gone by then? Don't think so but could be wrong. The 9th was the day that the border between east and west Germany was formally, if rather chaotically opened so this may not have occurred by the time the ISOT occurs. This probably also means there are a number of E Germans from outside E Berlin who were there to attend the protests.

Obvious question is who of political importance are in Belin on 9-11-39? Even if Hitler and other leading Nazis are elsewhere and can pick up the pieces Germany has lost much of its central government and infrastructure as well as a major industrial base. Instead there's a city that wants nothing to do with the Nazis and is 'garrisoned' by units both from Britain and France, which the Nazi regime is at war with and the Soviet Union - currently basically an ally - and the US, an important neutral.

Lordroel's list doesn't mention air units but probably at least some helicopters in the garrison, or failing that there will be commercial a/c. As such if down-time German forces attack the city they will win eventually given the numbers and lack of supply for the defenders. However should be a decent chance for some up-timers to get out and escape to France or possibly neutral Denmark or the Netherlands. The capture of 1989 Berlin potentially gives Nazi Germany a huge boost in both knowledge and technology but how much they will be able and willing to use I don't know while the costs of such an attack could be cost, as well as the loss of the down-time capital. Also this would mean attacking American and Soviet military units which could cause huge political problems.

A more hopeful route might be that the decapitation of the Nazi state, especially if many of the leading members of the government are there at the time and its replacement by a democratic regime. [Although that could be difficult]. This would drastically change the political situation, especially since while the allies would almost certainly insist on Poland and the Czech republic being restored your unlikely to see the OTL border changes so Germany will be larger, even without avoiding the losses of WWII. Plus it will have access to the majority of the information available in Berlin.

So far i can see according the Wiki is this Soviet force was in Berlin in 1989: 6th Separate Guards Motor Rifle Brigade

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mullauna Banned Banned Posts: 376 Likes: 40	East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 18, 2018 14:01:19 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mullauna on Sept 18, 2018 14:01:19 GMT won't the East and West Berliners and the US/UK/French and Soviet forces work to prevent uptime knowledge and tech falling into Nazi hands?

lordroel
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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 18, 2018 14:02:57 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Sept 18, 2018 14:02:57 GMT

Sept 18, 2018 14:01:19 GMT mullauna said:

won't the East and West Berliners and the US/UK/French and Soviet forces work to prevent uptime knowledge and tech falling into Nazi hands?

What Nazis, most of the the German leadership where in 1939 Berlin.

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stevep
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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 18, 2018 14:28:40 GMT

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Post by stevep on Sept 18, 2018 14:28:40 GMT

Sept 18, 2018 14:01:19 GMT mullauna said:

won't the East and West Berliners and the US/UK/French and Soviet forces work to prevent uptime knowledge and tech falling into Nazi hands?

A lot of them will but if Berlin fell into German hands there's a hell of a lot of information, even in public libraries and private homes that could provide a hell of a potential boost. Let alone you might have some Germans, especially possibly from the former east who might be supporters of such views, including former survivors of service in WWII, people who see such a step as the best way of stopping a defeat which sees Germany possibly still partitioned and losing a lot of land, those who see a chance for personal benefits in terms of wealth, power etc and simply those who want to keep themselves and their families out of the hands of the Gestapo!

Lordroel might be right that the Nazis as a party will be largely decapitated and news from Berlin that they proved a total disaster for Germany could be damaging. However the regime has had 6 years to put down roots and have strongholds in other areas, especially in Bavaria. Also you have a militarised, expansionist regime already at war with Britain and France. The latter are unlikely to give up on their recent gains if they think there's a chance of picking up a lot of technology and doing better. You are likely to have a degree of instability while various groups struggle for dominance, plus probably attacks to 'liberate' Berlin and this might mean war with the Soviets and/or the US as well but that could make the down-time Germans even more desperate to avoid a OTL 45 outcome.

Don't forget this is the time of the so called Phoney War and neither Britain nor France had plans before 41 to really go to the offensive while they were still hoping, despite the Nazi-Soviet Pact, that the blockade would cause a German collapse.

Not saying the war might be over quicker, especially if either the Soviets or Americans, or both, end up at war as a result of attacks on 'their' troops in Berlin. Just that the down-time Germans are in a position to grab a lot of both knowledge and technology and its going to be very tempting for them.

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East and West Berlin 1989-39 Sept 18, 2018 19:20:19 GMT

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Post by James G on Sept 18, 2018 19:20:19 GMT

Sept 16, 2018 18:11:04 GMT lordroel said:

Sept 16, 2018 17:55:24 GMT stevep said:

So far i can see according the Wiki is this Soviet force was in Berlin in 1989: 6th Separate Guards Motor Rifle Brigade

And that brigade was no small thing either: big on tanks (120+) and artillery. It was a good unit.
In addition, the KGB had a 'guard detachment' of a few hundred well-armed officers. Then there were the regular KGB and GRU intelligence officers atop of that, all who - in theory - should have been able to handle a pistol at best. Thousands of Soviets were in East Berlin and none of them there just for show.

I am here in Redwallshire and I am being ware.

Post by mullauna on Sept 16, 2018 12:20:07 GMT

Post by lordroel on Sept 16, 2018 12:37:34 GMT

Post by stevep on Sept 16, 2018 17:55:24 GMT

Post by lordroel on Sept 16, 2018 18:11:04 GMT

Post by mullauna on Sept 18, 2018 14:01:19 GMT

Post by lordroel on Sept 18, 2018 14:02:57 GMT

Post by stevep on Sept 18, 2018 14:28:40 GMT

Post by James G on Sept 18, 2018 19:20:19 GMT