Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 7, 2018 3:10:02 GMT
Every Reverse Cold War thread that I've encountered so far features this overriding theme: a communist United States combating a capitalist Russia in a global, decades-long standoff characterized by proxy wars, spying and subterfuge, and a perpetual nuclear arms buildup that could potentially wipe out civilization. This is all well and good, don't get me wrong.
What I have yet to see, however, is a scenario where a free market China--not Russia--industrializes and leads the anticommunist world against the Red Menace.
So what, if any, events could transform the Asian giant into a global, ultracapitalistic superpower that can go toe to toe with the United States ITTL?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2018 3:14:21 GMT
Every Reverse Cold War thread that I've encountered so far features this overriding theme: a communist United States combating a capitalist Russia in a global, decades-long standoff characterized by proxy wars, spying and subterfuge, and a perpetual nuclear arms buildup that could potentially wipe out civilization. This is all well and good, don't get me wrong. What I have yet to see, however, is a scenario where a free market China--not Russia--industrializes and leads the anticommunist world against the Red Menace. So what, if any, events could transform the Asian giant into a global, ultracapitalistic superpower that can go toe to toe with the United States ITTL? What is the status of Mexico and Canada. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 7, 2018 3:23:32 GMT
Every Reverse Cold War thread that I've encountered so far features this overriding theme: a communist United States combating a capitalist Russia in a global, decades-long standoff characterized by proxy wars, spying and subterfuge, and a perpetual nuclear arms buildup that could potentially wipe out civilization. This is all well and good, don't get me wrong. What I have yet to see, however, is a scenario where a free market China--not Russia--industrializes and leads the anticommunist world against the Red Menace. So what, if any, events could transform the Asian giant into a global, ultracapitalistic superpower that can go toe to toe with the United States ITTL? What is the status of Mexico and Canada. I imagine the Mexico and the other Central American states ending up invaded, occupied and turned communist by the US. I don't know what to say about Canada, though I hope that it remains a staunchly capitalistic nation. I suppose either case depends on the events that lead up to the Reverse Cold War. A British North America that endures the revolution makes Canada communist too, for example. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2018 3:34:21 GMT
What is the status of Mexico and Canada. I imagine the Mexico and the other Central American states ending up invaded, occupied and turned communist by the US. I don't know what to say about Canada, though I hope that it remains a staunchly capitalistic nation. I suppose either case depends on the events that lead up to the Reverse Cold War. A British North America that endures the revolution makes Canada communist too, for example. Well i think we would see in Canada something like the British Army of Canada (BAC), doubt we see a Chinese army in Canada. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 7, 2018 7:35:30 GMT
I imagine the Mexico and the other Central American states ending up invaded, occupied and turned communist by the US. I don't know what to say about Canada, though I hope that it remains a staunchly capitalistic nation. I suppose either case depends on the events that lead up to the Reverse Cold War. A British North America that endures the revolution makes Canada communist too, for example. Well i think we would see in Canada something like the British Army of Canada (BAC), doubt we see a Chinese army in Canada.
You might do if the strategic interests of Britain, China and Canada all favour that, i.e. a desire to keep Canada free of US control. Getting that timing right could be difficult however. Plus if you have a European colonised N America that suggests that Europe developed pretty much as OTL so where does the rest of the continent fit into things. At the very least Britain would have to closely at whats happening in Europe because it would affect strongly their own independence and welfare. Especially since a powerful Russia will directly interact with this China.
Of course this all excludes how you get a communist US with something like the present borders. Which is another big issue.  |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 7, 2018 15:07:29 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2018 15:47:42 GMT
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 7, 2018 16:44:34 GMT
If you're referring to the end result of a Back in the USSA-esque United States, then perhaps yes. My big problem with this is that free market capitalism is, by this point, probably too ingrained in American society and culture for Marxism to make serious gains in 1917. Hence, I kept the Thirteen Colonies under English rule and delayed the American Revolution until 1918 in my TL, so that colonial resentment against British laissez-fairism could build up over the decades before they finally revolted. The PoD leading up to this, however, likely doesn't allow for an anticommunist Canada to take shape; mainland BNA, the majority of which experiences a socialist revolution, encompasses its territory. That, and I want to make China, rather than the UK or Russia, the dominant neoliberal power ITTL. That's not to say that either of those two can--or should--be weak by any means; in fact, I welcome you guys to make them Great Powers, and dare I say as/more powerful than the OTL United States, if so inclined. The caveat is that however formidable you make them, China should nonetheless be stronger still and unambiguously reign supreme. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2018 16:47:52 GMT
That, and I want to make China, rather than the UK or Russia, the dominant neoliberal power ITTL. That's not to say that either of those two can--or should--be weak by any means; in fact, I welcome you guys to make them Great Powers, and dare I say as/more powerful than the OTL United States, if so inclined. The caveat is that however formidable you make them, China should nonetheless be stronger still and unambiguously reign supreme. Does China have to remain a empire. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 7, 2018 17:10:14 GMT
That, and I want to make China, rather than the UK or Russia, the dominant neoliberal power ITTL. That's not to say that either of those two can--or should--be weak by any means; in fact, I welcome you guys to make them Great Powers, and dare I say as/more powerful than the OTL United States, if so inclined. The caveat is that however formidable you make them, China should nonetheless be stronger still and unambiguously reign supreme. Does China have to remain a empire. It doesn't have to be, but I'm perfectly fine with it developing that way. See, I'm not really sure that TTL's capitalist powers would embrace Western democracy/republicanism as much as IOTL. In fact, I predict imperialism and unrestrained laissez-fairism being more acceptable, with the various colonies hosting free economic zones and corporate-dominated areas, a. la. modern-day Dutch East India Companies complete with Gilded Age robber barons. Some places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, would be more-or-less anarcho-capitalist territories that prosper from a constant tide of free trade, commerce and foreign investment. Others would not. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2018 3:12:19 GMT
Does China have to remain a empire. It doesn't have to be, but I'm perfectly fine with it developing that way. See, I'm not really sure that TTL's capitalist powers would embrace Western democracy/republicanism as much as IOTL. In fact, I predict imperialism and unrestrained laissez-fairism being more acceptable, with the various colonies hosting free economic zones and corporate-dominated areas, a. la. modern-day Dutch East India Companies complete with Gilded Age robber barons. Some places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, would be more-or-less anarcho-capitalist territories that prosper from a constant tide of free trade, commerce and foreign investment. Others would not. Does the POD to be before 1900 and does China need to be a democracy like the United Kingdom ore a sort of country like the German Empire before 1914. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Aug 8, 2018 13:52:02 GMT
It doesn't have to be, but I'm perfectly fine with it developing that way. See, I'm not really sure that TTL's capitalist powers would embrace Western democracy/republicanism as much as IOTL. In fact, I predict imperialism and unrestrained laissez-fairism being more acceptable, with the various colonies hosting free economic zones and corporate-dominated areas, a. la. modern-day Dutch East India Companies complete with Gilded Age robber barons. Some places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, would be more-or-less anarcho-capitalist territories that prosper from a constant tide of free trade, commerce and foreign investment. Others would not. Does the POD to be before 1900 and does China need to be a democracy like the United Kingdom ore a sort of country like the German Empire before 1914. The PoD doesn't necessarily have to be pre-1900, though that seems to be the most plausible option now that you mention it. Regarding China's government, it should probably have something closer to the British parliamentary system.
Economically, China should have more libertarian, even "just about anything goes" leanings. For reasons that I stated before, imperialism and all the it entails are likely more acceptable ITTL. In addition to a Hong Kong 4.0-mainland, maybe overseas mercenaries and businesses conquer/otherwise appropriate stuff beyond their borders, doing as they please without the government really stepping in, so long as it doesn't reach Scramble for Africa levels.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2018 13:53:57 GMT
Does the POD to be before 1900 and does China need to be a democracy like the United Kingdom ore a sort of country like the German Empire before 1914. The PoD doesn't necessarily have to be pre-1900, though that seems to be the most plausible option now that you mention it. Regarding China's government, it should probably have something closer to the British system of parliament, with laissez-faire capitalism that puts American free enterprise to shame.
Was thinking China wins ore mange to tie in the First Sino-Japanese War of 1895, reforms happen in the empire which sees in 1914 that it joins the British and French against a Japan who is on the German side. |
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insect
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Post by insect on Aug 9, 2018 2:34:41 GMT
Both countries split up veitnam.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2018 2:49:38 GMT
Both countries split up veitnam. does not even have to happen, with so many butterflies Vietnam could remain French ore remain a united pro-Chinese empire. |
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