James G
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Post by James G on Aug 3, 2018 10:53:36 GMT
The Greek civil war ran from 1946 to 1949. Government forces eventually won, overcoming the communist rebels in the end.
In what manner could the war have gone on longer - or, conversely, even shorter - to see the nation split into two parts similar to the divided Koreas. What would these two nations look like internally and in terms of territory? Would each automatically fall into the East v West Blocs?
Ideas?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2018 15:08:20 GMT
The Greek civil war ran from 1946 to 1949. Government forces eventually won, overcoming the communist rebels in the end. In what manner could the war have gone on longer - or, conversely, even shorter - to see the nation split into two parts similar to the divided Koreas. What would these two nations look like internally and in terms of territory? Would each automatically fall into the East v West Blocs? Ideas? Only way that could happen if the Greek Communists stay loyal to Tito Yugoslavia and not loyalty to the Soviet Union which saw Tito cutting all ties and support to the Greek Communists. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2018 16:52:22 GMT
The Greek civil war ran from 1946 to 1949. Government forces eventually won, overcoming the communist rebels in the end. In what manner could the war have gone on longer - or, conversely, even shorter - to see the nation split into two parts similar to the divided Koreas. What would these two nations look like internally and in terms of territory? Would each automatically fall into the East v West Blocs? Ideas? Only way that could happen if the Greek Communists stay loyal to Tito Yugoslavia and not loyalty to the Soviet Union which saw Tito cutting all ties and support to the Greek Communists.
I don't know about that. What if either Churchill had never made his deal with Stalin at Yalta or Stalin hadn't kept his word? If there had been substantial aid to the communists from the Soviets then you might have seen the country ended up divided. More likely to occur in the fighting in 44-45 possibly rather than the formal warfare in 46-49 possibly however. Not sure how Greece split in the civil war but you might have the north becoming communist with possibly a capital at Thessaloniki?
According to the Wiki article OTL Stalin wanted the conflict ending and didn't give support but Tito was in favour of supporting the communist bid to take power.
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 3, 2018 16:55:36 GMT
I would think that Yugoslavia would be key to making the war go a different way.
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 3, 2018 21:22:02 GMT
Just an idea of how a divided Greece might look like. Peloponnese attached to the mainland joins Crete, the Dodecanese and the Ionian Islands (handed over by the British) as the Republic of Greece in blue. The People's Democratic Republic of Greece is in red. Turkey has taken a few islands (in green) though not anything on the mainland.  (Click on map to enlarge) |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2018 21:24:44 GMT
Just an idea of how a divided Greece might look like. Peloponnese attached to the mainland joins Crete, the Dodecanese and the Ionian Islands (handed over by the British) as the Republic of Greece in blue. The People's Democratic Republic of Greece is in red. Turkey has taken a few islands (in green) though not anything on the mainland. View Attachment(Click on map to enlarge) Nice map, but did ELAS have that support to gain that much of Greece. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 3, 2018 21:29:22 GMT
Just an idea of how a divided Greece might look like. Peloponnese attached to the mainland joins Crete, the Dodecanese and the Ionian Islands (handed over by the British) as the Republic of Greece in blue. The People's Democratic Republic of Greece is in red. Turkey has taken a few islands (in green) though not anything on the mainland. (Click on map to enlarge) Nice map, but did ELAS have that support to gain that much of Greece. Only with either the Red Army, or maybe the Yugoslav Army, could they win that much I'd think. Otherwise, you are correct in thinking they would get nothing like that. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 3, 2018 21:33:04 GMT
Nice map, but did ELAS have that support to gain that much of Greece. Only with either the Red Army, or maybe the Yugoslav Army, could they win that much I'd think. Otherwise, you are correct in thinking they would get nothing like that. Would that not get the British ore Americans involved more than they already where. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2018 22:07:48 GMT
Only with either the Red Army, or maybe the Yugoslav Army, could they win that much I'd think. Otherwise, you are correct in thinking they would get nothing like that. Would that not get the British ore Americans involved more than they already where.
If it was done in ~44-45 then Britain wouldn't have the strength and the US lacked the interest. Roosevelt seemed to be under the delusion that Churchill's moves to prevent a communist take-over in Greece was some attempt to expand Britain's influence and even its empire and also the equally daft idea he could work with Stalin and trust his word.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Aug 4, 2018 3:14:02 GMT
Just an idea of how a divided Greece might look like. Peloponnese attached to the mainland joins Crete, the Dodecanese and the Ionian Islands (handed over by the British) as the Republic of Greece in blue. The People's Democratic Republic of Greece is in red. Turkey has taken a few islands (in green) though not anything on the mainland. (Click on map to enlarge) I'm not sure if Red Greece would be 'persuaded' to give up some of its territories in question. Given the long obsession with warm water ports, Stalin would definitely be pushing for some bits of Greek territory to be given to the USSR directly, or at the very least, Soviet puppet Bulgaria. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 4, 2018 9:43:32 GMT
Did not find a map of OTL Greece Civil War, so this YouTube clip has to do:
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 4, 2018 10:04:18 GMT
Did not find a map of OTL Greece Civil War, so this YouTube clip has to do:
Well that suggests that Tito only really closed the borders when the communists had pretty much been defeated. Also that unrest/communist control was spread fairly evenly over the country at the height of the conflict, with even some in Crete. About the only region where it wasn't prominent at some stage seems to be Attica, possibly because the capital had a big concentration of pro-government supporters and military strength? However it does look to be primarily in inland areas, which I think are largely mountainous and relatively thinly populated so how much of the population they actually control is unclear. [Mind you how complete the control/support the government had of areas it 'controlled' could have varied.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 4, 2018 10:11:44 GMT
Did not find a map of OTL Greece Civil War, so this YouTube clip has to do: Well that suggests that Tito only really closed the borders when the communists had pretty much been defeated. Also that unrest/communist control was spread fairly evenly over the country at the height of the conflict, with even some in Crete. About the only region where it wasn't prominent at some stage seems to be Attica, possibly because the capital had a big concentration of pro-government supporters and military strength? However it does look to be primarily in inland areas, which I think are largely mountainous and relatively thinly populated so how much of the population they actually control is unclear. [Mind you how complete the control/support the government had of areas it 'controlled' could have varied. Steve
Tito closed the borders when ELAS decided they where more loyal to Stalin than him. Here is some nice reading: Athens 1944: Britain’s dirty secretAlso this: Struggle and suffering: The 1946-49 Greek Civil War |
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