lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 29, 2022 11:43:41 GMT
Who else might be famous individuals of the 1960s that readers would be interested in knowing about? A certain British Doctor in a blue police phone box. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 29, 2022 12:00:03 GMT
There isn't a Doctor Who television show, as the character exists. As for the character himself, his activities are classified/the stuff of tales in the planning.
And he's Gallifreyan, not British.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 29, 2022 14:44:44 GMT
There isn't a Doctor Who television show, as the character exists. As for the character himself, his activities are classified/the stuff of tales in the planning. And he's Gallifreyan, not British.
He's Gallifreyan by birth but even in the 1960's had relatively little to do with his home world being an exile/fugitive much of the time unless they really needed him. It could be argued that his relations with Earth and particularly with Britain are closer than those of his home world. After all identity is a matter of choice to some degree. 
What about some of the leading female figures of the period OTL? Say Twiggy, Lulu or Mary Quant - as the 1st names I pluck out of my head. How do they fair in a world which is much more male dominated than OTL?
Similarly is the FA still banning women footballers in DE? It was about this time OTL that pressure to allow women to play started to become strong again.
More generally what is the status of women in the DE west. Still very much in the kitchen and bedroom or are they starting to get progress in factors like equal rights and protection against sexual abuse? IIRC it was still impossible to charge a man for rape if the victim was his wife in this time period so suspect it will be no better in DE.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 29, 2022 15:07:19 GMT
That is a very good point as to his role in the 1960s. I might see what information can be released…
I’ll can work out some things for those women. Here is the next part of my list so far:
Leslie Hornby/Twiggy
A young seamstress living in Neasden, recently becoming engaged to one of the foresters of Highgate Wood.
Marie Lawrie/Lulu
After a brief singing career in her youth sparked by a novelty hit with The Sheik of Araby, timed for the first British visit of the new Sultan, the Glaswegian lass has settled down and is married to former shipbuilder and now paratrooper William Connolly MM.
Mrs Barbara Plunkett Greene/Mary Quant
One of London’s most successful milliners and purveyors of lady’s fashion, she has established a strong niche providing hats to the Royal Court and the serried ranks of high society.
Jane Fonda
The daughter of noted Hollywood stalwart Henry Fonda has enjoyed increasingly complex roles since her 1960 film debut, but has yet to fully break out of her perceived niche.
Timothy Leary
A pioneer in the intersection of psychology, alchemy and magic, Dr. Leary is attached to the U.S. DoD’s top secret interdimensional research group, the deceptively blandly named Leading Studies Department. He has been instrumental in the experimental psychonautic exploration of outer planes.
William F Buckley
Buckley is regarded by many as one of the doyens of the American conservative movement and a leading public intellectual. He has provided a potent voice for conservatism and anti-Communism over the last decade and a half through books, magazines, radio and television.
Eric Clapton
Wounded in a training accident on Salisbury Plain in 1965 by a premature grenade burst, he was one of the first cripples to receive a mechanical hand to replace his own, although it is somewhat slower than a natural one.
Padre Pio
Famed Italian friar and stigmatist, he is well known for more than his holy wounds, having been involved in a number of verified healings and other miraculous circumstances.
Yoko Ono
A Japanese poet, modernist artist and novelist whose repute has spread beyond Japan to certain artistic communities in the Western World; she is also known for her fine voice as heard on various lieder records.
David Jones
An apprentice wizard from London studying at the Royal College of Magic.
Golda Myerson
The first female Prime Minister of a Commonwealth Realm, she has held office since March 1969.
Gene Hunt
The best thief-taker and best shot in the Manchester and Salford Police, DCI Hunt has risen through the ranks from his days as a uniformed constable. He is a tough, loyal and talented detective in the view of his men and is much feared by the street criminals of the city; his relations with the Manchester Thieves Guild are more complex.
Enrico Fermi
Fermi continues to be hailed as one of the world’s greatest and most productive physicists. An excellent teacher, he has supervised and mentored dozens of brilliant students over the 1950s and 1960s and has been a leading commentator on the role of atomic power in modern society.
Georgy Zhukov
The Soviet Union’s greatest commander of the Second World War has become the greatest influence on the development of Soviet defence policy and the Red Army in the postwar decades. Apart from a few brief years out of favour during the declining years of the elder Stalin’s rule, Zhukov has held the role of Defence Minister and is recognised as one of the most powerful members of the Politburo. He has championed a number of weapon systems and military reforms which are in the process of changing Soviet military capabilities. Uniquely among the Soviet leadership, he is regarded as relatively ebulient and approachable by his Western counterparts of the last war and he remains on good terms with several.
Marshal Ky
Nguyen Ky, former commander of the Service Aeronautique Royale Vietnamienne has served as Prime Minister since 1966. He has deftly handled the internal power plays and infighting whilst trying to preserve some vestige of sovereignty in the face of effective American control of South Vietnam’s war economy and defences. A flamboyant and controversial figure to many, he is tolerated as an effective wartime premier for now.
Jacques Clouseau
Surete Chief Inspector Clouseau is widely considered as France’s finest detective, having established a lengthy record of success since the Second World War. After his early meteoric rise to fame for capturing the Viet Minh commander Giap in 1947 after falling out of a coconut tree into his disguised jeep, he has mainly concentrated on criminal cases, including the notorious affair of the Pink Panther. Some scurrilous foreign commentators have ascribed his success to bumbling luck, but the larger body of patriotic French thought is that his eccentricities are merely a touch of Gallic flourish, similar to the renowned scientific adventurer Professor Jacques de Quack.
C S Lewis
Lewis remains one of the most highly esteemed and widely read British authors in the genres of fantasy, science fiction and historical fiction. He is also well known for his religious philosophical works and his series of Christian apologias and is a frequent commentator on a range of topics on the BBC.
Margaret Thatcher
Shadow Secretary of State for Education, Science and Technology, Mrs. Thatcher has been a relatively strong performer in Opposition over the last five years. The Shadow Cabinet is perhaps the strongest this century and she has been partly eclipsed by other, better known colleagues. It is thought that she may well earn promotion to one of the more senior portfolios in time, but that will require an opening.
James Hacker
A capable young Liberal MP highly regarded by his own party who previously served as a crusading editor of Reform. He is said to be in line for promotion to the Liberal Shadow Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, a prestigious junior role.
Yukio Mishima
The former actor and author has had a swift rise to success and office since being persuaded to enter politics, currently serving as Governor of Tokyo. He is known to hold exceptionally strident views on Japanese postwar society and culture and has made a number of controversial speeches on the matter.
Yuri Andropov
Chairman of the KGB and one of the most powerful men in the USSR, the shadowy Andropov leads the largest secret police force and intelligence service in the world with an iron fist in an iron glove. On the few occasions he has been seen in public over the last five years, he has appeared remarkably fit, refreshed and almost younger.
Moshe Dayan
Field Marshal Sir Moshe Dayan, Chief of Staff of Israeli Defence Force, stands on the cusp of retirement as a well respected commander who has never quite been presented with the opportunity for a fitting war to prove his mettle. He won great fame as a young commander in the Second World War and lead the Israeli Brigade in the latter half of the Korean War, but his great moment came in 1956, where as Chief of the General Staff, he successfully directed the impressive Israeli advance into Egypt. No fourth war has come and now Dayan is thought to be contemplating a political career.
Karol Wojtyla
Cardinal Wojtyla, Archbishop of Krakow, is one of the higher ranked and most able princes of the Church and has been spoken of as having potential for even greater office.
Wilfred Owen
One of the great poets of the Great War, Owen is now among the grand old men of English letters. He declined the role of Poet Laureate due to his advancing years and preference for his beloved country home and the company of his dear wife.
Walt Disney
Film maker, animator, producer and businessman, Disney’s name is near synonymous with American success and culture around the world. His works have been beloved by generations of children and his plans to build new versions of his fabled Disneyland around the world have caused much anticipation.
Pele
The greatest football player in the world. Already Brazil’s leading goalscorer, he will captain them in Germany 1970. He is reportedly the highest paid sportsman in the world, a status richly earned.
Rudolf Nureyev
The defection of the Soviet ballet dancer in 1961 caused great international shock, but since then, his performances at the Royal Ballet have been exquisite.
In 1965, I did JFK, Vasily Stalin, Stanley Barton, Alexei Sergeyev, Charles de Gaulle, Winston Churchill, Charles Henry Stuart, Leonid Brezhnev, Harold Wilson, Roy Jenkins, Nelson Mandela (+), Salvador Allende, Leon Trotsky, Lester Pearson, Lassie, Ronald Reagan, MLK, Paul McCartney, Elvis, Willie Brandt, Rachel Carson, Sukarno, Bruce Lee, Dag Hammarskjold, Monty, TE Lawrence, George Orwell and JM Keynes.
1960: Roger Thompson, JFK, Stalin Jr, Che, Nixon, De Gaulle, Churchill, Horatio Hornblower, Bob Dylan, LBJ, Billy Graham, Cassius Clay, Malcolm Little/X, Brezhnev, Pierre Trudeau (+), Duncan Edwards, Stan Lee, Ernest Hemingway, Neil Armstrong, Ronald Reagan, Frank Whittle, Enoch Powell and Charlie Chaplin
1955: Churchill, Eden, Thompson, Von Richthofen, Van Helsing, Tito, Haile Selassie, Sir Mohandas Gandhi, John Lennon, Reagan, Atticus Finch, Blofeld, Bond, Flashman, Stanley Barton, Roy Hobbs, Emmet Brown, James Dean, MLK, Dick Tracy, John Wayne, Curtis LeMay, Matt Braddock, Willy Wonka, Che, Quatermass, Frankenstein, Fu Manchu, George Bailey, Harry Callahan, Stalin, Khrushchev (+), Eisenhower, Taft, Mao (+), Nixon, Patton, MacArthur, Heydrich, Mussolini, Rommel, Otto von Habsburg, De Gaulle, William Richardson, Nasser (+), Franco (+), Elvis, Sherlock Holmes, Tolkien, Jack Aubrey, Richard Sharpe, Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Charles Ratcliffe, TR, Dracula, Nikola Tesla, Cecil Rhodes and Orwell
Women’s Soccer:
The FA ban is still in place and does not look like shifting any time soon due to the lack of the same current of 1960s women’s rights.
Women’s Rights:
They have the vote.
Marriage bars have been removed.
Full property rights.
Full access to education.
The female employment rate is ~39-40% compared to ~49-50%.
The number of women returning to the workforce after children is smaller.
Equal Pay isn’t on the horizon
Birth control is essentially absent.
The marital rape situation didn’t change until 1991 in @, so no drivers here.
They are kept out of the Armed Forces with the exception of the WRNS and WRAF.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 29, 2022 16:18:24 GMT
Righto, the above post is completed now.
I’m going to be getting some lists of prices together, along with some other goodies.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 30, 2022 15:33:45 GMT
That is a very good point as to his role in the 1960s. I might see what information can be released… I’ll can work out some things for those women. Here is the next part of my list so far: Leslie Hornby/Twiggy A young seamstress living in Neasden, recently becoming engaged to one of the foresters of Highgate Wood. Marie Lawrie/Lulu After a brief singing career in her youth sparked by a novelty hit with The Sheik of Araby, timed for the first British visit of the new Sultan, the Glaswegian lass has settled down and is married to former shipbuilder and now paratrooper William Connolly MM. Mrs Barbara Plunkett Greene/Mary Quant One of London’s most successful milliners and purveyors of lady’s fashion, she has established a strong niche providing hats to the Royal Court and the serried ranks of high society. Jane Fonda The daughter of noted Hollywood stalwart Henry Fonda has enjoyed increasingly complex roles since her 1960 film debut, but has yet to fully break out of her perceived niche. Timothy Leary A pioneer in the intersection of psychology, alchemy and magic, Dr. Leary is attached to the U.S. DoD’s top secret interdimensional research group, the deceptively blandly named Leading Studies Department. He has been instrumental in the experimental psychonautic exploration of outer planes. William F Buckley Buckley is regarded by many as one of the doyens of the American conservative movement and a leading public intellectual. He has provided a potent voice for conservatism and anti-Communism over the last decade and a half through books, magazines, radio and television. Eric Clapton Wounded in a training accident on Salisbury Plain in 1965 by a premature grenade burst, he was one of the first cripples to receive a mechanical hand to replace his own, although it is somewhat slower than a natural one. Padre Pio Yoko Ono David Bowie Golda Meyerson Gene Hunt Enrico Fermi Georgy Zhukov Abbe Pierre Marshal Ky Jacques Clouseau C S Lewis Margaret Thatcher James Hacker Yukio Mishima Yuri Andropov Moshe Dayan Fidel Castro: Would have an entirely different name Karol Wojtyla Anne Frank: Married with her husband’s name Wilfred Owen Walt Disney Pele Rudolf Nureyev Nikolai Kuznetzov In 1965, I did JFK, Vasily Stalin, Stanley Barton, Alexei Sergeyev, Charles de Gaulle, Winston Churchill, Charles Henry Stuart, Leonid Brezhnev, Harold Wilson, Roy Jenkins, Nelson Mandela (+), Salvador Allende, Leon Trotsky, Lester Pearson, Lassie, Ronald Reagan, MLK, Paul McCartney, Elvis, Willie Brandt, Rachel Carson, Sukarno, Bruce Lee, Dag Hammarskjold, Monty, TE Lawrence, George Orwell and JM Keynes. 1960: Roger Thompson, JFK, Stalin Jr, Che, Nixon, De Gaulle, Churchill, Horatio Hornblower, Bob Dylan, LBJ, Billy Graham, Cassius Clay, Malcolm Little/X, Brezhnev, Pierre Trudeau (+), Duncan Edwards, Stan Lee, Ernest Hemingway, Neil Armstrong, Ronald Reagan, Frank Whittle, Enoch Powell and Charlie Chaplin 1955: Churchill, Eden, Thompson, Von Richthofen, Van Helsing, Tito, Haile Selassie, Sir Mohandas Gandhi, John Lennon, Reagan, Atticus Finch, Blofeld, Bond, Flashman, Stanley Barton, Roy Hobbs, Emmet Brown, James Dean, MLK, Dick Tracy, John Wayne, Curtis LeMay, Matt Braddock, Willy Wonka, Che, Quatermass, Frankenstein, Fu Manchu, George Bailey, Harry Callahan, Stalin, Khrushchev (+), Eisenhower, Taft, Mao (+), Nixon, Patton, MacArthur, Heydrich, Mussolini, Rommel, Otto von Habsburg, De Gaulle, William Richardson, Nasser (+), Franco (+), Elvis, Sherlock Holmes, Tolkien, Jack Aubrey, Richard Sharpe, Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Charles Ratcliffe, TR, Dracula, Nikola Tesla, Cecil Rhodes and Orwell Women’s Soccer: The FA ban is still in place and does not look like shifting any time soon due to the lack of the same current of 1960s women’s rights. Women’s Rights: They have the vote. Marriage bars have been removed. Full property rights. Full access to education. The female employment rate is ~39-40% compared to ~49-50%. The number of women returning to the workforce after children is smaller. Equal Pay isn’t on the horizon Birth control is essentially absent. The marital rape situation didn’t change until 1991 in @, so no drivers here. They are kept out of the Armed Forces with the exception of the WRNS and WRAF.
Well that grimmer for women even than for ordinary men. Still very much a bedroom and kitchen role and as a result the loss of a lot of talent in many spheres as well as emptier lives.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 30, 2022 16:06:18 GMT
I don't really think of it as grimmer, but quite similar to the early 1960s situation in @. I wouldn't go so far as to characterise that as necessarily grim.
If the loss of talent refers to the updated profiles, I would similarly differ. I don't regard models, miniskirts or making particular noises from an electric guitar as really important impacts upon the world nor the foundation of meaning. The model issue was fairly clear cut, as with different tastes, the ages and type of models would necessarily be different. I wouldn't say that a steady, fulfilling 'ordinary' family life is necessarily empty and the experience of fame certainly ended up causing a lot of heartache, addiction, violence, suffering and death for many of the celebrities who came to rise in the 1950s, 60s and 70s.
Perhaps there is an influence of the nature of DE. The people of Dark Earth live in a world of actual magic, multiple real heroes (super and otherwise), war being a very direct presence and astounding things. The same types of celebrities aren't going to emerge even before we take the cultural differences fully into account.
It hasn't been created expressly for the purposes of removing 1960s youth culture, rock and roll, the sexual revolution and what not, but rather as a representation of what a culture would look like through different drivers and changes and rather uncomprimisingly following through the natural consequence of those developments, even if it leads to a world which is not recognisable, cuts out many of the things we personally like or sacrifices sacred cows. There is a certain confluence with some of my views, such as not having a lot of time of day for models/fashion and some of the more extremely self-indulgent features of 1960s culture, but that is coincidental.
For that reason, I do like to respond to the characterisation of lives as emptier without the various subgenres of pop music/satire/fashion/personal permissiveness, as there is a logical case that I can see that their lives are simply filled with other things. They don't have Beatles records, miniskirts, Monty Python or The Pill, but they are wealthier, live in a cleaner environment, have considerably longer life expectancies, pay less tax, eat better and healthier food, smoke far less, have better social security and health safety nets and exist in a world with fusion power, cures for cancer, real magic and quite a bit going for it. They have a full range of sports, culture, family life, hobbies, holidays and pastimes. Whilst I haven't done a full cost benefit analysis of pros and cons, I'm fairly sure Dark Earth comes out in front objectively and subjectively; I understand the latter would be different for everyone.
My flaw is that I always look at the big picture of the whole world, rather than particular aspects of individual life, so I do enjoy getting interesting observations that go beyond simple closed questions that are a matter of X and Y. Perhaps that different perspective makes things strike me in a different way in turn.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 30, 2022 16:32:51 GMT
I don't really think of it as grimmer, but quite similar to the early 1960s situation in @. I wouldn't go so far as to characterise that as necessarily grim. If the loss of talent refers to the updated profiles, I would similarly differ. I don't regard models, miniskirts or making particular noises from an electric guitar as really important impacts upon the world nor the foundation of meaning. The model issue was fairly clear cut, as with different tastes, the ages and type of models would necessarily be different. I wouldn't say that a steady, fulfilling 'ordinary' family life is necessarily empty and the experience of fame certainly ended up causing a lot of heartache, addiction, violence, suffering and death for many of the celebrities who came to rise in the 1950s, 60s and 70s. Perhaps there is an influence of the nature of DE. The people of Dark Earth live in a world of actual magic, multiple real heroes (super and otherwise), war being a very direct presence and astounding things. The same types of celebrities aren't going to emerge even before we take the cultural differences fully into account. It hasn't been created expressly for the purposes of removing 1960s youth culture, rock and roll, the sexual revolution and what not, but rather as a representation of what a culture would look like through different drivers and changes and rather uncomprimisingly following through the natural consequence of those developments, even if it leads to a world which is not recognisable, cuts out many of the things we personally like or sacrifices sacred cows. There is a certain confluence with some of my views, such as not having a lot of time of day for models/fashion and some of the more extremely self-indulgent features of 1960s culture, but that is coincidental. For that reason, I do like to respond to the characterisation of lives as emptier without the various subgenres of pop music/satire/fashion/personal permissiveness, as there is a logical case that I can see that their lives are simply filled with other things. They don't have Beatles records, miniskirts, Monty Python or The Pill, but they are wealthier, live in a cleaner environment, have considerably longer life expectancies, pay less tax, eat better and healthier food, smoke far less, have better social security and health safety nets and exist in a world with fusion power, cures for cancer, real magic and quite a bit going for it. They have a full range of sports, culture, family life, hobbies, holidays and pastimes. Whilst I haven't done a full cost benefit analysis of pros and cons, I'm fairly sure Dark Earth comes out in front objectively and subjectively; I understand the latter would be different for everyone. My flaw is that I always look at the big picture of the whole world, rather than particular aspects of individual life, so I do enjoy getting interesting observations that go beyond simple closed questions that are a matter of X and Y. Perhaps that different perspective makes things strike me in a different way in turn.
I'm thinking less of celebrates, or rather different ones in different positions but in terms of life choices for people. It sounds rather like women are largely stuck in the bedroom and kitchen role. Especially with a serious lack of birth control and the far more conservative social views. [They were still present OTL in the 1960's but were at least being challenged]. Plus a much grimmer society with less freedom of expression. Your got to confirm pretty unconditionally to the views of the establishment which would also suppress technological and scientific development.
One thing I forgot to say. With clear evidence that intelligent aliens exist - even if largely only in higher level of government how does that change the world view on such issues. Thinking here of the aforementioned exile from Gallifrey, although there might be other cases. Especially since that sort of highly scientific - even if idiotically so in places - clashes with the much darker religious views of DE.
Anyway this is a case of basic differences in interests for us so I doubt its going to change much.
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Post by simon darkshade on Apr 30, 2022 17:05:18 GMT
I don’t see women being stuck in the bedroom or kitchen any more than historically. The differences in employment rates are not huge, but I sense that isn’t the big driver for your point.
The absence of birth control beyond male prophylactics isn’t a major bearing on freedom for me. The ability to mate without consequence isn’t a really big thing in terms of bottom line life choice. I’d go further into really questioning the degree to which those type of sexual politics and behaviours really had a tangible effect on average men and women. Marriage rates and ages didn’t decline/increase overnight, after all.
The conservative social views amount to looking down upon sex outside of wedlock, disapproval of abortion and homosexuality and more of a stronger line on public morality. On the last, it catches Lady Chatterley’s Lover with the same mosquito net that prevents pornography, but it is being recognised as an imprecise shield, as it were.
There were challenges coming in the 1960s in @, but in the majority of cases, were not being driven by the groundswell of public opinion; indeed, they oft went directly against it. Here, the policy lines of the major parties tend to reflect their supporters more accurately, with Labour quite traditionalist just as the Conservatives are and the Liberals in the middle being, well, liberal; there is also a shaving off of the more radical left/socialist elements of Labour. Politics is downstream of culture.
There is very broad freedom of expression, but some of the bastions that fell in @ still hold. That does not translate to grimness. There is plentiful room for criticism, but not for mockery or profanity.
I’d be interested in an expanded rationalisation of the scientific/technological development part. I don’t see the connection.
The ‘intelligent alien’ conundrum is one that isn’t so much driven by the alien part as the intelligent part, as the ability to travel between systems entails something smarter/more advanced and more powerful than Earth/the West/America or Britain. It is the not knowing that concerns the blokes at the top rather than the religious or philosophical implications. It is like the end of Apocalypto, where the Mayans suddenly see the Spaniards rowing to the beach, but over a longer timeframe and without being able to see/identify what is there. They are used to being the top players in the top species on the top planet. Culture shock.
That is actually one of the drivers I have for societies being a bit more traditionalist. When faced with crisis, there is a rally round the flag effect. One manifestation of this is the lack of staying power for human-human racism, but there are other consequences of uncertainty. There has been 150 years of massive change in every way from the IR and two world wars, on top of which there is changes in magic and the changes wrought by space travel and expansion.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 2, 2022 14:33:21 GMT
I don’t see women being stuck in the bedroom or kitchen any more than historically. The differences in employment rates are not huge, but I sense that isn’t the big driver for your point. The absence of birth control beyond male prophylactics isn’t a major bearing on freedom for me. The ability to mate without consequence isn’t a really big thing in terms of bottom line life choice. I’d go further into really questioning the degree to which those type of sexual politics and behaviours really had a tangible effect on average men and women. Marriage rates and ages didn’t decline/increase overnight, after all. The conservative social views amount to looking down upon sex outside of wedlock, disapproval of abortion and homosexuality and more of a stronger line on public morality. On the last, it catches Lady Chatterley’s Lover with the same mosquito net that prevents pornography, but it is being recognised as an imprecise shield, as it were. There were challenges coming in the 1960s in @, but in the majority of cases, were not being driven by the groundswell of public opinion; indeed, they oft went directly against it. Here, the policy lines of the major parties tend to reflect their supporters more accurately, with Labour quite traditionalist just as the Conservatives are and the Liberals in the middle being, well, liberal; there is also a shaving off of the more radical left/socialist elements of Labour. Politics is downstream of culture. There is very broad freedom of expression, but some of the bastions that fell in @ still hold. That does not translate to grimness. There is plentiful room for criticism, but not for mockery or profanity. I’d be interested in an expanded rationalisation of the scientific/technological development part. I don’t see the connection.The ‘intelligent alien’ conundrum is one that isn’t so much driven by the alien part as the intelligent part, as the ability to travel between systems entails something smarter/more advanced and more powerful than Earth/the West/America or Britain. It is the not knowing that concerns the blokes at the top rather than the religious or philosophical implications. It is like the end of Apocalypto, where the Mayans suddenly see the Spaniards rowing to the beach, but over a longer timeframe and without being able to see/identify what is there. They are used to being the top players in the top species on the top planet. Culture shock. That is actually one of the drivers I have for societies being a bit more traditionalist. When faced with crisis, there is a rally round the flag effect. One manifestation of this is the lack of staying power for human-human racism, but there are other consequences of uncertainty. There has been 150 years of massive change in every way from the IR and two world wars, on top of which there is changes in magic and the changes wrought by space travel and expansion.
I would have to disagree with you on a lot of the things here but don't know if its worthwhile continuing longer.
To clarify on one point. Many if not most breakthroughs or simple progression in ideas or technology for instances come from outside the box thinking and this is less likely to happen in a society which frowns on - if not actively repressing - new ideas. There will be some pressure from the ongoing cold war but again social restrictions will tend to confine options. By rejecting variance in society - and implicitly if not explicitly viewing anything different as bad options are closed, both for people having better lives and society in general having more creativity.
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Post by simon darkshade on May 2, 2022 16:47:33 GMT
1970 Top 30 Economies
1.) USA $10.075 trillion
2.) USSR $4.556 trillion
3.) Germany $3.899 trillion
4.) Britain $3.761 trillion
5.) Japan $3.227 trillion
6.) France $2.09 trillion
7.) India $1.984 trillion
8.) China $1.946 trillion
9.) Canada $1.815 trillion
10.) Italy $1.38 trillion
11.) Austria-Hungary $1.113 trillion
12.) Brazil: $1.091 trillion
13.) Benelux: $1.054 trillion
14.) Spain: $903 billion
15.) Australia $845 billion
16.) Mexico: $836 billion
17.) Argentina: $824 billion
18.) Sweden: $659 billion
19.) South Africa: $646 billion
20.) Turkey: $615 billion
21.) Poland: $598 billion
22.) Indonesia: $586 billion
23.) Persia: $552 billion
24.) Greece: $487 billion
25.) Korea: $456 billion
26.) Switzerland: $425 billion
27.) Venezuela: $407 billion
28.) New Avalon: $402 billion
29.) Yugoslavia: $384 billion
30.) Philippines: $359 billion
31.) Colombia: $336 billion
32.) Chile: $325 billion
33.) Thailand: $320 billion
34.) Peru: $306 billion
35.) GDR: $293 billion
36.) Nigeria: $284 billion
37.) Denmark: $273 billion
38.) Romania: $260 billion
39.) Arabia: $254 billion
40.) Taiwan: $247 billion
41.) Iraq: $239 billion
42.) West Indies: $225 billion
43.) Egypt: $215 billion
44.) Rhodesia: $208 billion
45.) Norway: $192 billion
46.) New Zealand: $187 billion
47.) Israel: $179 billion
48.) Finland: $170 billion
49.) Syria: $161 billion
50.) Newfoundland: $156 billion
The largest performers above historical are Greece, Iraq, South Africa, Canada, Chile and Sweden, with Peru, Turkey, Australia and Germany not far behind.
Trends:
- Japan is going to overtake Britain and have a 1979s just as impressive as the 60s
- Germany won’t slow as much due to economies of scale and will continue to be Europe’s strongest performer
- France will continue to catch up with Britain. Some more peaceful years post Vietnam will help a great deal. I might need to alter their numbers to account for Algeria as well
- China is likely to overtake India because of weight of population, but the latter has a better long term outlook. China is not cut off from the world, but it also means that the huge growth of the Deng period and beyond doesn’t have a starting basis
- America is so large at this point that a very good year will give them huge momentum. They are starting to accelerate ahead from the pack
- The USSR isn’t slowing down anytime soon
- In the Teens, Mexico is very nicely placed, but keep an eye on Argentina for some interesting growth
- In the Twenties, Persia and Korea are the ones to watch
- In the Thirties, Romania is actually the best placed for advancement
- In the Forties, Egypt has the most potential for a rise
- Looking at the Arab Union numbers, if they were a true United state, they would be breathing down Argentina’s neck
- South America has some very strong performers
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Post by simon darkshade on May 2, 2022 17:31:47 GMT
I don’t see women being stuck in the bedroom or kitchen any more than historically. The differences in employment rates are not huge, but I sense that isn’t the big driver for your point. The absence of birth control beyond male prophylactics isn’t a major bearing on freedom for me. The ability to mate without consequence isn’t a really big thing in terms of bottom line life choice. I’d go further into really questioning the degree to which those type of sexual politics and behaviours really had a tangible effect on average men and women. Marriage rates and ages didn’t decline/increase overnight, after all. The conservative social views amount to looking down upon sex outside of wedlock, disapproval of abortion and homosexuality and more of a stronger line on public morality. On the last, it catches Lady Chatterley’s Lover with the same mosquito net that prevents pornography, but it is being recognised as an imprecise shield, as it were. There were challenges coming in the 1960s in @, but in the majority of cases, were not being driven by the groundswell of public opinion; indeed, they oft went directly against it. Here, the policy lines of the major parties tend to reflect their supporters more accurately, with Labour quite traditionalist just as the Conservatives are and the Liberals in the middle being, well, liberal; there is also a shaving off of the more radical left/socialist elements of Labour. Politics is downstream of culture. There is very broad freedom of expression, but some of the bastions that fell in @ still hold. That does not translate to grimness. There is plentiful room for criticism, but not for mockery or profanity. I’d be interested in an expanded rationalisation of the scientific/technological development part. I don’t see the connection.The ‘intelligent alien’ conundrum is one that isn’t so much driven by the alien part as the intelligent part, as the ability to travel between systems entails something smarter/more advanced and more powerful than Earth/the West/America or Britain. It is the not knowing that concerns the blokes at the top rather than the religious or philosophical implications. It is like the end of Apocalypto, where the Mayans suddenly see the Spaniards rowing to the beach, but over a longer timeframe and without being able to see/identify what is there. They are used to being the top players in the top species on the top planet. Culture shock. That is actually one of the drivers I have for societies being a bit more traditionalist. When faced with crisis, there is a rally round the flag effect. One manifestation of this is the lack of staying power for human-human racism, but there are other consequences of uncertainty. There has been 150 years of massive change in every way from the IR and two world wars, on top of which there is changes in magic and the changes wrought by space travel and expansion.
I would have to disagree with you on a lot of the things here but don't know if its worthwhile continuing longer.
To clarify on one point. Many if not most breakthroughs or simple progression in ideas or technology for instances come from outside the box thinking and this is less likely to happen in a society which frowns on - if not actively repressing - new ideas. There will be some pressure from the ongoing cold war but again social restrictions will tend to confine options. By rejecting variance in society - and implicitly if not explicitly viewing anything different as bad options are closed, both for people having better lives and society in general having more creativity.
Steve, I value your contributions, comments and questions most highly and don’t see our discussion as an attempt at persuasion or argument, but as mutual analysis of the same object from different perspectives. Whatever you’ve got to say is valuable for me, especially from the perspective of someone who has lived through the times depicted. I see your point, but don’t really think it applies here. New ideas aren’t necessarily frowned upon and definitely not repressed, outside of the worst excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, the Soviet Union and Imperial China; I’m conjuring a bit of the spirit of 1984 in the latter case, whereby Eastasia/China is a strange, unknown ideological entity. In Britain, if someone has a different idea on how society should be run, they can write a book, get up in Hyde Park and talk their lungs out, join a party of like-minded people and engage freely in public protest. The only stage where they will run across any trouble is if they advocate political revolution or hint at violence. If they want to write fiction, poetry, paint or sculpt, there is no restriction on what they can do beyond similar public decency grounds to the 1950s, which is most usually exercised to prevent the import or sale of blue material. Censorship exists formally in the form of the Ministry of Information, but is fairly limited in 95% of cases to material with a defence ambit. War reporting is rather strictly controlled. D Notices are used and some things are not talked about/commented upon. The Minister of Information is George Orwell, with all that entails regarding his views about free speech. There is also informal BBC (and now ITV) censorship of the type of material shown, language used, the level of respect and deference to authority and the subject matter shown at certain time of day. This is imposed by themselves, internally, at the direction of their D-Gs, as occurred in @ with ‘Reithianism’. Feminism is a few years behind where it stood historically, but the 1970 Equal Pay Act won’t be delayed too long; when I said it wasn’t on the horizon, I meant in the lifetime of the current parliament which runs from 1968-73. The 1970 one only came into effect in 1975 for some reason. There will be more movement on this, as your queries have lead me to some interesting readings. I’m not really seeing where the situation amounts to frowning on new ideas or the proliferation of difference. There is a glorious amount of the latter. In any event, the @ 1970s were a nadir foe Britain in so many ways. I can’t see that happening here and for that reason, the characterisation of grimness perplexes me. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 3, 2022 13:53:18 GMT
I would have to disagree with you on a lot of the things here but don't know if its worthwhile continuing longer.
To clarify on one point. Many if not most breakthroughs or simple progression in ideas or technology for instances come from outside the box thinking and this is less likely to happen in a society which frowns on - if not actively repressing - new ideas. There will be some pressure from the ongoing cold war but again social restrictions will tend to confine options. By rejecting variance in society - and implicitly if not explicitly viewing anything different as bad options are closed, both for people having better lives and society in general having more creativity.
Steve, I value your contributions, comments and questions most highly and don’t see our discussion as an attempt at persuasion or argument, but as mutual analysis of the same object from different perspectives. Whatever you’ve got to say is valuable for me, especially from the perspective of someone who has lived through the times depicted. I see your point, but don’t really think it applies here. New ideas aren’t necessarily frowned upon and definitely not repressed, outside of the worst excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, the Soviet Union and Imperial China; I’m conjuring a bit of the spirit of 1984 in the latter case, whereby Eastasia/China is a strange, unknown ideological entity. In Britain, if someone has a different idea on how society should be run, they can write a book, get up in Hyde Park and talk their lungs out, join a party of like-minded people and engage freely in public protest. The only stage where they will run across any trouble is if they advocate political revolution or hint at violence. If they want to write fiction, poetry, paint or sculpt, there is no restriction on what they can do beyond similar public decency grounds to the 1950s, which is most usually exercised to prevent the import or sale of blue material. Censorship exists formally in the form of the Ministry of Information, but is fairly limited in 95% of cases to material with a defence ambit. War reporting is rather strictly controlled. D Notices are used and some things are not talked about/commented upon. The Minister of Information is George Orwell, with all that entails regarding his views about free speech. There is also informal BBC (and now ITV) censorship of the type of material shown, language used, the level of respect and deference to authority and the subject matter shown at certain time of day. This is imposed by themselves, internally, at the direction of their D-Gs, as occurred in @ with ‘Reithianism’. Feminism is a few years behind where it stood historically, but the 1970 Equal Pay Act won’t be delayed too long; when I said it wasn’t on the horizon, I meant in the lifetime of the current parliament which runs from 1968-73. The 1970 one only came into effect in 1975 for some reason. There will be more movement on this, as your queries have lead me to some interesting readings. I’m not really seeing where the situation amounts to frowning on new ideas or the proliferation of difference. There is a glorious amount of the latter. In any event, the @ 1970s were a nadir foe Britain in so many ways. I can’t see that happening here and for that reason, the characterisation of grimness perplexes me.
Simon
I was thinking partly more generally of the world, such as the political murders resulting from the current coup in France and similarly in other places and also the more conformist attitude inside the UK. For instance as you say sexual equality is behind OTL, although as you say in some legal aspects it isn't that far behind. However if there's no birth control then I suspect that sex education is even more backwards than OTL for instance. Its also been made clear that a lot of things that were tolerated OTL in terms of expression aren't allowed now. Whether due to being illegal or heavy application of social pressure.
I'm also thinking from a personal prospect. I was born in 1959 of working class parents in a conservative rural region and have a bar sinister in my coat of arms . At school I was very much an isolate and also asked questions a lot. Never one to accept a -'because I say so approach' - or that happy with being talked down to or treated as an object rather than a person. This sometimes caused clashes, especially at school but the more liberal element of the later 60s' and 70's avoided this getting too nasty. I suspect in the DE environment I would suffer a lot more including the sort of physical abuse that was still common in the more reactionary areas and is probably a lot more widespread here. If anything like my own self my persona in DE wouldn't accept that calmly so my life could follow a much darker path here. I doubt that fighting back against a violent teacher or other 'adult' would get me in serious trouble in DE.
Plus given how narrow a range of opinions are respected in DE Britain it can't help but restrict opportunities both for personal development and new ideas and technologies.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on May 3, 2022 14:37:54 GMT
Steve
I’ll answer tomorrow. For now, the last batch of Where Are They Now has been completed a few posts back.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on May 4, 2022 5:11:26 GMT
Steve, I value your contributions, comments and questions most highly and don’t see our discussion as an attempt at persuasion or argument, but as mutual analysis of the same object from different perspectives. Whatever you’ve got to say is valuable for me, especially from the perspective of someone who has lived through the times depicted. I see your point, but don’t really think it applies here. New ideas aren’t necessarily frowned upon and definitely not repressed, outside of the worst excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, the Soviet Union and Imperial China; I’m conjuring a bit of the spirit of 1984 in the latter case, whereby Eastasia/China is a strange, unknown ideological entity. In Britain, if someone has a different idea on how society should be run, they can write a book, get up in Hyde Park and talk their lungs out, join a party of like-minded people and engage freely in public protest. The only stage where they will run across any trouble is if they advocate political revolution or hint at violence. If they want to write fiction, poetry, paint or sculpt, there is no restriction on what they can do beyond similar public decency grounds to the 1950s, which is most usually exercised to prevent the import or sale of blue material. Censorship exists formally in the form of the Ministry of Information, but is fairly limited in 95% of cases to material with a defence ambit. War reporting is rather strictly controlled. D Notices are used and some things are not talked about/commented upon. The Minister of Information is George Orwell, with all that entails regarding his views about free speech. There is also informal BBC (and now ITV) censorship of the type of material shown, language used, the level of respect and deference to authority and the subject matter shown at certain time of day. This is imposed by themselves, internally, at the direction of their D-Gs, as occurred in @ with ‘Reithianism’. Feminism is a few years behind where it stood historically, but the 1970 Equal Pay Act won’t be delayed too long; when I said it wasn’t on the horizon, I meant in the lifetime of the current parliament which runs from 1968-73. The 1970 one only came into effect in 1975 for some reason. There will be more movement on this, as your queries have lead me to some interesting readings. I’m not really seeing where the situation amounts to frowning on new ideas or the proliferation of difference. There is a glorious amount of the latter. In any event, the @ 1970s were a nadir foe Britain in so many ways. I can’t see that happening here and for that reason, the characterisation of grimness perplexes me.
Simon
I was thinking partly more generally of the world, such as the political murders resulting from the current coup in France and similarly in other places and also the more conformist attitude inside the UK.
For instance as you say sexual equality is behind OTL, although as you say in some legal aspects it isn't that far behind. However if there's no birth control then I suspect that sex education is even more backwards than OTL for instance.
Its also been made clear that a lot of things that were tolerated OTL in terms of expression aren't allowed now. Whether due to being illegal or heavy application of social pressure.
I'm also thinking from a personal prospect. I was born in 1959 of working class parents in a conservative rural region and have a bar sinister in my coat of arms  . At school I was very much an isolate and also asked questions a lot. Never one to accept a -'because I say so approach' - or that happy with being talked down to or treated as an object rather than a person. This sometimes caused clashes, especially at school but the more liberal element of the later 60s' and 70's avoided this getting too nasty. I suspect in the DE environment I would suffer a lot more including the sort of physical abuse that was still common in the more reactionary areas and is probably a lot more widespread here. If anything like my own self my persona in DE wouldn't accept that calmly so my life could follow a much darker path here. I doubt that fighting back against a violent teacher or other 'adult' would get me in serious trouble in DE.
Plus given how narrow a range of opinions are respected in DE Britain it can't help but restrict opportunities both for personal development and new ideas and technologies.
Steve
Steve, The world varies from country to country and even within those countries. Clean up after coups and attempted revolutions is always messy and distasteful, however necessary some purport it to be. Conformism in Britain is a tad different. There is a long and rich tradition of nonconformism and eccentricity that is still very strong, just as in @. What hasn't happened is the younger generation taking over the cultural roost, so to speak, which never really happened in @ Britain in the 1960s either, as the long march through the institutions took decades. Gender equality is only a little way behind and will catch up quickly enough. On questions of sex, DE Britain is rather more in the 1950s/Victorian attitudes, with caveats. I don't tend to write about that type of thing, as I keep my works G rated in substance (as much as tales of battles, massacres, sorcery and what not can be G rated) and more upwardly minded in tone, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there. In Limehouse and such areas, there are still ladies engaged in the world's oldest profession. Sex education is not seen as within the purview of schools beyond the strictly biological. In the @ 1960s, the dam broke for satire, explicit books, theatre, music, television and films. For various reasons, these don't happen here. Their absence does not equal a technologically closed or backward society, nor does it entail a particularly narrow range of opinions on matters disconnected to entertainment/the arts. London is perhaps even more cosmopolitan, although there has not been the same degree of mass immigration; people and other species come from all over, but don't end up moving their extended family with them. Your own personal perspective is interesting. Corporal punishment is still so common in schools so that its absence is remarked upon with curiousity, such as in C.S. Lewis's The Silver Chair. Does this and generally greater conformity compared to 1969 in @ mean that those who bucked the system would all end up bucked in turn, like in The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner? Not necessarily. There is an acknowledgement, built from 60+ years of almost continuous war or the threat of war, that 'it takes all types'. There are some personality types that, with the right molding, can be very useful, not just from a military point of view, but more broadly. Nonconformism and eccentricity is quite tolerated if it delivers results. And if people cannot really 'get on' in society at home, there is a very big Empire on Earth and in space that needs all sorts of people who may not fit in to the City, or a staid village in the shires. The most buccaneering businessman, swashbuckling adventurer, daring explorer or prospector; the commandos, inventors or lateral thinkers - they all may not be the most clubbable of fellows, but they have a role in the broader puzzle. Simon |
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. At school I was very much an isolate and also asked questions a lot. Never one to accept a -'because I say so approach' - or that happy with being talked down to or treated as an object rather than a person. This sometimes caused clashes, especially at school but the more liberal element of the later 60s' and 70's avoided this getting too nasty. I suspect in the DE environment I would suffer a lot more including the sort of physical abuse that was still common in the more reactionary areas and is probably a lot more widespread here.