stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 25, 2018 10:39:31 GMT
Lordroel, there might possibly be such aircraft in the future, but that is a long way down the road; the drivers that existed for Israel historically are not there. Steve, the F-110 purchase isn't a step welcomed by London, but Israel is the most independent-minded of the Dominions and British production is flat out for its own needs, those of India and several hard currency foreign markets at present; this is a source of friction. Replacement of the Hunters in service with air forces around the world is now looming as a lucrative market: they are used by Britain (836), Australia (196), Israel (86), New Zealand (64), India (468), South Africa (138), Rhodesia (73), New Avalon (102), Newfoundland (36), Prydain (48), Kenya (36), Germany (216), Sweden (236), Austria-Hungary (387), Greece (354), Brazil (269), Argentina (118), Chile (124), Netherlands (144), Belgium (146), Yugoslavia (135), Persia (200), Denmark (54), Norway (56), Switzerland (184), Portugal (72), Bulgaria (127), Iraq (42), Egypt (65), Syria (50), Jordan (29), Arabia (72) and Albania (24). The baby boom did see a remarkable spike which was flattening by 1960. The Soviets historically stayed out until 52, so they are running a bit behind. If there is a mini-thaw, then they'll compete in '64. US losses of aircraft and bombs matched the intensity of their deployments; airborne alerts had their price.
That's a hell of a lot of Hunters. No wonder some countries are looking elsewhere for replacements, even with a much more powerful British aero industry here. Wouldn't be surprised if India started to diversify or get licenced production of some version to boost their own industries. Also suspect Germany at least and possibly Austria-Hungary seek to revive their own capacity, especially with Germany being outside the alliance system.
Must admit, having grown up seeing them being so successful, along with E Germany - again aided by drugs in many cases - I had never considered that they only competed starting in 52 but suppose it makes sense when you consider things.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 25, 2018 11:15:17 GMT
simon darkshade i also remembered you made some orbats for countries, would be nice to see them, mabey in a Dark Earth Orbat thread.
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 25, 2018 21:59:12 GMT
Lordroel, there might possibly be such aircraft in the future, but that is a long way down the road; the drivers that existed for Israel historically are not there. Steve, the F-110 purchase isn't a step welcomed by London, but Israel is the most independent-minded of the Dominions and British production is flat out for its own needs, those of India and several hard currency foreign markets at present; this is a source of friction. Replacement of the Hunters in service with air forces around the world is now looming as a lucrative market: they are used by Britain (836), Australia (196), Israel (86), New Zealand (64), India (468), South Africa (138), Rhodesia (73), New Avalon (102), Newfoundland (36), Prydain (48), Kenya (36), Germany (216), Sweden (236), Austria-Hungary (387), Greece (354), Brazil (269), Argentina (118), Chile (124), Netherlands (144), Belgium (146), Yugoslavia (135), Persia (200), Denmark (54), Norway (56), Switzerland (184), Portugal (72), Bulgaria (127), Iraq (42), Egypt (65), Syria (50), Jordan (29), Arabia (72) and Albania (24). The baby boom did see a remarkable spike which was flattening by 1960. The Soviets historically stayed out until 52, so they are running a bit behind. If there is a mini-thaw, then they'll compete in '64. US losses of aircraft and bombs matched the intensity of their deployments; airborne alerts had their price.
That's a hell of a lot of Hunters. No wonder some countries are looking elsewhere for replacements, even with a much more powerful British aero industry here. Wouldn't be surprised if India started to diversify or get licenced production of some version to boost their own industries. Also suspect Germany at least and possibly Austria-Hungary seek to revive their own capacity, especially with Germany being outside the alliance system.
Must admit, having grown up seeing them being so successful, along with E Germany - again aided by drugs in many cases - I had never considered that they only competed starting in 52 but suppose it makes sense when you consider things.
There are quite a few of them, being the most successful British export fighter of the 1950s. They are getting long in the teeth in the rapidly changing technological environment, though. India will be looking for domestic production of whatever aircraft it selects. Germany and AH will replace theirs with domestic designs, as partly detailed in From Sea to Shining Sea, as will the Benelux and Scandinavian states. That leaves South America, the Middle East and the periphery of Europe as big potential markets for the various Hunter replacement options: the Harrier, the de Havilland Spectre and the P.1121 Merlin. There isn't a direct successor per se. Quite right on the Olympics; surprised me when I first read it. Lordroel, I shall see what I can dig out. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 26, 2018 4:09:41 GMT
Lordroel, I shall see what I can dig out. Thanks, also what did you find of the flag i posted on the previous page. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 26, 2018 5:29:57 GMT
The proportion of the Star of David is good, but I envisage it as being on a Blue Ensign.
It is used as of 1960, but within Israel, there is growing pressure to adopt the Zionist flag.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 2, 2018 12:24:32 GMT
It is used as of 1960, but within Israel, there is growing pressure to adopt the Zionist flag. Also a growing pressure to become a full independent republic with no ties to the British Empire. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 2, 2018 19:33:05 GMT
No, they're not stupid. The nearest non-communist republic is Liberia and there isn't a lot of call for it.
Cutting all ties with the regional hegemon, their major arms supplier and one of three bona fide superpowers would make no sense for Israel. The Arab standing armies alone number ~975,000 and 1800 aircraft, even before they have begun modernising post 1956.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 2, 2018 19:35:21 GMT
No, they're not stupid. The nearest non-communist republic is Liberia and there isn't a lot of call for it. You mean in the Middle East and Africa. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 2, 2018 20:00:53 GMT
The entire Old World - Africa, Asia and Europe.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 2, 2018 20:03:49 GMT
The entire Old World - Africa, Asia and Europe. That is a lot, but then again many countries that where in OTL monarchies but changed into republics remain in the Dark earth verse monarchies if i am correct. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 2, 2018 20:18:09 GMT
A number of countries that were republics on Earth as of 1960 are constitutional monarchies here. They fall into the following categories:
1.) Western European monarchies not falling in the 20th century (Germany, Italy, Portugal)
2.) France (restored monarchy post 1871)
3.) Empire of China
4.) British dominions (India, South Africa, Israel)
5.) Eastern European monarchies propped up post WW2 (AH, Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria)
6.) Arab monarchies under British protection (Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria)
7.) Continuing 19th century Latin American empires (Brazil, Mexico)
8.) South American monarchies that emerged from Spanish rule under British sponsorship (Argentina, Chile, Aranguay, Paraguay; Colombia, Ecuador; Bolivia, Peru).
9.) Arab monarchy under French protection (Tunisia)
10.) Ottoman Turkey
11.) Ongoing independent Kingdom of Madagascar
12.) Restored Scandinavian monarchy post WW1 (Finland)
13.) Restored Korean empire as a figurehead
14.) Switzerland established as a principality as part of a more reactionary Congress of Vienna
15.) Iceland
16.) The very strange and special status of Mongolia...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 3, 2018 20:16:02 GMT
A number of countries that were republics on Earth as of 1960 are constitutional monarchies here. They fall into the following categories: 1.) Western European monarchies not falling in the 20th century (Germany, Italy, Portugal) 2.) France (restored monarchy post 1871) 3.) Empire of China 4.) British dominions (India, South Africa, Israel) 5.) Eastern European monarchies propped up post WW2 (AH, Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria) 6.) Arab monarchies under British protection (Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) 7.) Continuing 19th century Latin American empires (Brazil, Mexico) 8.) South American monarchies that emerged from Spanish rule under British sponsorship (Argentina, Chile, Aranguay, Paraguay; Colombia, Ecuador; Bolivia, Peru). 9.) Arab monarchy under French protection (Tunisia) 10.) Ottoman Turkey 11.) Ongoing independent Kingdom of Madagascar 12.) Restored Scandinavian monarchy post WW1 (Finland) 13.) Restored Korean empire as a figurehead 14.) Switzerland established as a principality as part of a more reactionary Congress of Vienna 15.) Iceland 16.) The very strange and special status of Mongolia... Thanks for the list. Brazil is still a empire i guess, because it is one of my favorite fallen monarchies. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 4, 2018 10:44:14 GMT
It still is an empire and an interesting one at that.
On an external level, they are beginning to extend their interests and influence in Portuguese Africa as a potential supporter of growing independence movements. This is largely driven by the strong left wing faction in Brazil.
At the same time, there is a powerful nationalist and Integralist power group which has ambitions of hegemony over South America and superpower status.
In addition, there is Premier Vargas and the Emperor, each having their own powerbases and agendas.
Brazil in 1960 has a population of 108 million and GDP of £21,047 million ($526.175 billion in 1990 USD), which gives it the 14th largest economy in the world. It has the strongest military in South America, although Argentina has somewhat more developed industrial capacity.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 4, 2018 15:42:23 GMT
It still is an empire and an interesting one at that. On an external level, they are beginning to extend their interests and influence in Portuguese Africa as a potential supporter of growing independence movements. This is largely driven by the strong left wing faction in Brazil. At the same time, there is a powerful nationalist and Integralist power group which has ambitions of hegemony over South America and superpower status. In addition, there is Premier Vargas and the Emperor, each having their own powerbases and agendas. Brazil in 1960 has a population of 108 million and GDP of £21,047 million ($526.175 billion in 1990 USD), which gives it the 14th largest economy in the world. It has the strongest military in South America, although Argentina has somewhat more developed industrial capacity. Do not know if i ever have asked here ore on AH.com, but did the South American dreadnought race also happen in the Dark Earthverse. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 4, 2018 20:18:34 GMT
It did occur and is now being followed by a 1960s arms race between Argentina, Brazil and Chile.
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