James G
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Post by James G on Jul 22, 2018 19:08:35 GMT
When would be the best time for an independent Ulster to be created?
If it didn't at once descend into anarchy and there was stability, what kind of nation would it be? A republic within the commonwealth with the queen as head of state? How would it survive internationally with trade and security?
EEC / EU membership? NATO membership?
Ideas?
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 22, 2018 19:55:18 GMT
When would be the best time for an independent Ulster to be created? If it didn't at once descend into anarchy and there was stability, what kind of nation would it be? A republic within the commonwealth with the queen as head of state? How would it survive internationally with trade and security? EEC / EU membership? NATO membership? Ideas? When the people who live in it decide they want to be independent? Sorry, your question is unclear. Ulster is part of the United Kingdom, struggled long time by a civil war between protestants and catholics, but basically it was a war between two influencing paramilitary, one with the secret support by the republic of ireland, the other by brutal force of the british army (long tradition since 1914) (who was unsuited for that kind of conflict). The IRA acted by terrorism, blowing up people in London, with their insane "idea" to bring the war to the britons on the main island, the british army commited lots of crimes by their "reactions". The british justice-system acted criminal by cheating - i think there was an interesting movie about how the british law-system raped its principles to bring 4 innocent irish into jail. Overall the whole bloody war was unnecessary... and useless. Ah, i remember, the Guildford four was the incident, the movie was "in the name of the father"... not that others would not act the same way, but because it is bound to the hot iron Ulster... But there was never a time in that Ulster would want to get independent. At last not in the 20th or 21th century. Maybe now, with the hard brexit hanging around, but that is speculations... Personal i am happy that the terrorism in northern ireland has ended (at last my knowledge), but do serious timespan exist in that Ulster wanted to be independent from the UK after 1921? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2018 21:49:05 GMT
When would be the best time for an independent Ulster to be created? If it didn't at once descend into anarchy and there was stability, what kind of nation would it be? A republic within the commonwealth with the queen as head of state? How would it survive internationally with trade and security? EEC / EU membership? NATO membership? Ideas?
Possibly a bloodier Irish civil war in 1918-20 which leads to Ulster possibly reacting more strongly to the independence of southern Ireland. Perhaps they insist on claiming all 8 counties of Ulster, or at least Donegal which would shorten the border. It would really need for mainland Britain to take a hands off approach for some reason although I think that would be difficult. Say there's more massacres on both sides and some degree of ethnic cleansing with Catholics driven from the north as well as many Protestants from the south. [Although a lot of Catholics were loyalists as well.] However its really going to be difficult given the obsession with ruling the north by the 'nationalist' elements.
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jul 22, 2018 22:46:16 GMT
Here's an idea: the fighting in Ireland in the 1910s and 1920s gets even worse than before, and eventually the solution is a neutral Ulster a la the Free City of Danzig or the Free City of Trieste.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 23, 2018 7:09:34 GMT
Here's an idea: the fighting in Ireland in the 1910s and 1920s gets even worse than before, and eventually the solution is a neutral Ulster a la the Free City of Danzig or the Free City of Trieste. THat is difficulty to reach. OTL the most Orange-people left the other irish areas and concentrated in Ulster, the same is true with many many catholics who left Ulster (pre-Civil war the people were much heterogen settled, only after that the numbers changed significant). UK also would defend its important bases (and the control about the irish sea, who again was critical for the survival of british economy with 90% of the external sea trade entering the irish sea). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:37:24 GMT
Judging by the people I know from Ulster the answer is: NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!
The Nationalists want a 32 county Ireland, the Unionists wish to remain part of the UK and no third position has ever been seriously contemplated.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2018 10:27:36 GMT
Judging by the people I know from Ulster the answer is: NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!!The Nationalists want a 32 county Ireland, the Unionists wish to remain part of the UK and no third position has ever been seriously contemplated.
That is the basic situation. Ulster's current identity is very much based on their different cultural from the south and NOT being part of it. This may weaken somewhat given the political and social dominance of the Catholic church - the main source of hatred/fear for the unionists has been dramatically undermined in the last decade or two. Although ironically the fact that the south has seem so much social change the north is now far more conservative than it, hence the current tension on abortion, which is still banned in the north. However I can't see Ulster wanting to seperate from the UK and join Ireland, no matter how much pressure the EU may try and put on them.
There is a danger that the ending of the open border may be used by some of the terrorists to escalate their level of violence but while nasty and lethal for some its wider impact would be to increase hostility towards any union with the south. [So may bigots and idiots never seem to realise that insulting and threatening people, let alone killing them is no way to win people over to your point of view].
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