eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jun 30, 2018 5:54:01 GMT
ITTL WWII unfolds into an isolated fight between the Axis powers (Germany, Italy, and Japan) and the USSR, with the Western powers (Britain, France, the USA) and China being able and willing to stay neutral. The Western world takes a stance on the Axis-Soviet conflict much similar to what its OTL counterpart would later do about the Iran-Iraq War. It happens this way because of two PoDs. The first one concerns Germany and the USSR getting what they want about Poland, and Britain and France choosing not to interfere. German leaders are savy enough to realize the OTL course would lead to a conflict with Britain and France, so they pick a different policy. They delay dismantlement of Czechoslovakia to a moment when other events shall make London and Paris too distracted to care. In the meanwhile they make themselves content with the results of the Munich Agreement, which made the Czechoslovak government pick the status of client state of Germany in an attempt to survive. This drives the British government not to feel betrayed in its appeasement policy and they avoid giving a military guarantee to Poland. Then Germany chooses a stance in the Danzig crisis that makes Poland look like the belligerant culprit, by encouraging the pro-German government of the Free City of Danzig to make a public show of its willingness to join Germany. This causes Poland to overreact and escalate the crisis by using military force in an attempt to suppress the union. When fighting starts between the Germans and the Poles the Soviets intervene to backstab Poland, and the Western powers decide Poland is not worthy of military help. Alternatively, the negotiations between Germany and the USSR for a partition of Eastern Europe in spheres of influence do include an agreement to issue a joint ultimatum to Poland for the cession of the territories the Germans and the Soviets claim (1914 borders and the Curzon Line respectively). When the Poles refuse, the British and the French decide the Polish state is effectively beyond their help due to the strategic situation and its territorial integrity is not worth a difficult and exhausting general war with a German-Soviet alliance.
Poland is quickly crushed on the battlefield and forced to cede the pre-1914 territories to Germany and the Kresy to the USSR, with a mass deportation of the Polish population in these areas to Poland. The Polish leaders realize their previous foreign policy is suicidal and their only hope for survival is to become the clients of one of the victor powers. They choose Nazi Germany as the lesser evil option from their perspective, much like OTL Romania did. The Germans decide this outcome is satisfying for them, at least until they can defeat the Soviets, and accept the collaborationist Poles as allies. This kind of outcome actually is more or less what Nazi Germany initially tried to achieve in the short term about Poland, they resorted to brutal military subjugation when the Poles refused an alliance and any territorial concession. They also assume non-intervention of Britain and France in the Polish crisis means they are simply too weak, decadent, and pacifistic to interfere and backstab Germany when the German-Soviet conflict occurs. Therefore they leave Western Europe alone after their success in Poland and prepare for Barbarossa. A German-Soviet conflict starts when the Soviets make their planned aggressive moves against Finland, the Baltic states, and Romania. The Germans claim the action is a (real or factitious) Soviet violation of their deal and make it a pretext to intervene.
The second PoD involves avoidance of the Second Sino-Japanese War and Japanese intervention in the German-Soviet conflict. Repression of extremist elements in the IJA following the failed February 26 Incident coup leaves them unable to use the Marco Polo Bridge Incident to escalate in all-out conflict between Japan and China. Like previous incidents, tensions ultimately subside into an uneasy truce. Japan sticks to its previous policy of holding on to Manchuria and trying to expand its influence across Northern China by supporting an array of collaborationist warlords and rogue Nationalist factions. When tensions start to escalate between Japan and the USSR into an undeclared border conflict, this polarizes the belligerant attention of Japanese militarists and makes them believe an all-out conflict with China would be too distracting. When the German-Soviet war starts, the Japanese leaders decide this would be a golden opportunity to settle their own score with the USSR from a position of strength, so they escalate the border war into all-out invasion of the Russian Far East and leave China alone. Nationalist China under Chiang's leadership decides this to be an excellent opportunity to pursue its policy of repression of the CCP, subjugation of the warlords, and prudent build-up of national strength, so they heed the truce with Japan. Nationalist intelligence discovers evidence of a possible coup by a pro-CCP, anti-Japanese faction, so Chiang avoids the Xi'an Incident.
The British and the French decide this course of events is satisfying from their perspective and what appeasement tried to achieve has been accomplished. All the revisionist powers and potential aggressors are too busy bleeding and tearing each other apart in Eastern Europe and the Far East to threaten Western Europe, China, or European interests in the Middle East or Southeast Asia. They embrace strict neutrality, continue rearmament, and write off Eastern Europe and Northeast Asia as war zones beyond their concern. Dismantlement of Czechoslovakia with German annexation of Bohemia-Moravia and partition of Slovakia between Poland and Hungary occurs at this point and goes essentially unnoticed. From Western perspective, an exhausting war of attrition that ends in a draw and leaves the belligerants on pre-war lines would be perfect. However, they are also willing to accept a partial victory of one side, such as the Axis powers conquering Ukraine and the Russian Far East or the Soviets getting Poland and Manchuria. Only complete subjugation of one side or the other would be an unacceptable risk to them, so they make tentative contingency plans to provide economic and weapons support to the losing side if the other side seems to be winning too much, and intervene if a decisive victory seems on the horizon. Otherwise, they buy popcorn and enjoy the bloody spectacle. This course of events leaves appeasement vindicated in the eyes of most neutral observers, and makes its authors look like wise statesmen that contained the danger of a general war to an internecine fight of different ideological brands within the totalitarian camp. Apart from far right and far left fringes supporting their respective sides, public opinion in the Western countries generally backs neutrality. Supporters of appeasement in the Anglo-French governments keep political dominance and win comfortable majorities in the British and French 1940 elections, while hawkish opposers such as Churchill find themselves ridiculed and marginalized as lunatic and irresponsible warmongers. Chamberlain stays in power till bad health forces him to retire, then another Conservative that shares his policies succeeds him.
Italy exploits the situation to annex Albania and engineer the dismantlement of Yugoslavia in concert with Hungary and Bulgaria by supporting separatist agitation of restive nationalities in Croatia, Macedonia, and Kosovo. When civil war explodes in Yugoslavia the Italians and their allies intervene and with some effort decisively defeat the Yugoslav army. The Italians and the Hungarians bargain German approval of their actions in the Balkans for their own support against the Soviets. The victors partition Yugoslavia in a way broadly similar to the OTL 1941 settlement. After Italy and Hungary are done with former Yugoslavia, they join the Axis coalition and give military support to Germany with their own expeditionary corps. Much like what they did with Czechoslovakia and Poland, Britain and France decide Yugoslavia is a convenient and necessary sacrifice of an instable multi-national state to keep a revisionist great power satisfied and busy, and not able to threaten Anglo-French interests in more sensitive areas. The Axis coalition comes to include Germany, Italy, Japan, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Finland, and Croatia. Finland and Romania join the conflict since they felt threatened and abused by Soviet aggressive actions in the build-up to the Eastern War. The Hungarians pressure Germany and Italy into an arbitrate that forces Romania to cede Northern Transylvania to Hungary. Nonetheless, much like the Poles the Romanians join the Axis coalition since they deem it the lesser evil option from their perspective. Bulgaria is a nominal ally and defeated Serbia a subjugated client of the Axis, but they stay neutral in the Eastern War because of their pro-Russian attitude. On the other hand, the Poles, Finns, and Romanians have genuine reasons of their own to fight the Soviets. Greece is left alone since Italy feels satisfied by success in Yugoslavia. The Nationalists win the Spanish Civil War, send an expeditionary corps to support the Axis, and otherwise focus on purge of defeated Republicans reconstruction of their war-torn country. India makes increasingly overwhelming pressure for genuine self-rule, which the British find ever more difficult to stall or counter.
The USA stays isolationist, with the vast majority of American public opinion being sympathetic to the British and French policy of strict neutrality. They often support rearmament, but are entirely unwilling to interfere or pick a side in the bloody feud between fascists and communists. Most Americans deem the situation in Eurasia quite convenient, with the totalitarian powers being too busy bleeding each other to mess with Western Europe or China. President Roosevelt may be personally hostile to the Axis powers and sympathetic to the USSR but he is forced to align with prevalent national mood and stick to strict neutrality by pressure of the Congress and public opinion. Something like Lend-Lease to the USSR or an embargo against the Axis powers would find no support whatsoever from the non-interventionist policies of the Congress. He does not stay in power for long anyway since he is forced not to run in 1940; he is not able to defy the the two-term precedent with Western Europe and China at peace. Moreover, scandals (discovery of a Soviet spy ring in America that infiltrated the Administration, revelations of his poor health and marital infidelity) cloud the last part of his second term and consume the rest of his political capital. All the potential Democratic (Hull, Farley) and Republican (Dewey, Taft) candidates to the Presidency either support neutrality, or are isolationists.
Circumstances of war in Eastern Europe and international pressure force Britain to tear up the White Paper and heed the calls of Axis countries to allow large-scale immigration of Jews into Palestine. Vast numbers of Central and Eastern European Jews flee there or are forced to leave to escape war and persecution, giving the Zionists a huge boost in numbers and the upper hand in the conflict with the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine and beyond. Building on this precedent, the Axis powers also exercise increasing pressure on Britain and France to let the Romani immigrate into some low-value area of their colonial empires. Given the circumstances, even most Nazis deem this an adequate solution to their wish to remove racially undesirable minorities from their sphere of influence. Much the same way, international PR constraints and having the Poles as allies force the Nazis to make an effort to hide their true aims of racial colonization in the Eastern lands and pretend the Axis-Soviet conflict is about an anti-communist ideological crusade. Therefore, they do a show of accepting the Baltic countries and anti-Soviet nationalities as allies, and since the Axis countries have unrestricted access to world markets (as long as they are able to pay, anyway) they don't have to exploit occupied areas too much for resources to feed their war effort. Nonetheless, the fact the Axis powers and the USSR are ruthless and hostile totalitarian powers still makes the conflict extremely brutal. Reports of atrocities against prisoners of war and unsympathetic civilians in occupied areas at the hands of both sides are frequent and widespread. Western public opinion typically reacts to this with a 'plague on both your houses' stance.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jun 30, 2018 19:51:55 GMT
I welcome everybody's opinions about how this scenario is likely going to unfold, as long as they take a constructive approach (trolls and naysayers need not apply). As it concerns the rest of the world, I guess Egypt and Syria-Iraq continue to agitate and pressure the Western powers for decolonization with increasing degrees of success, much like it happens with India. Hard to tell in these circumstances if India eventually achieves self-rule as a united federation or the partition occurs, although they probably stay a Dominion for longer. Almost surely decolonization takes a rather slower and more managed course than OTL. With France not involved in the war and Italy and Spain only to a limited extent, there is a good chance North Africa (especially Libya and the coastal areas) build up enough of an European settler population to stay politically bound to Europe for all time. Southeast Asia is probably too advanced in its anticolonial awakening for its decolonization to be delayed for too long, although the process likely is still slower than OTL. On the other hand, Africa is still far too backward and disorganized for its decolonization becoming a serious perspective in the short- and medium-term future. Given the circumstances, almost surely Italy eventually manages to crush Ethiopian resistance to its colonial rule by bloody repression. South America is not much different from OTL, except for fascism and communism both staying viable options for extremists. With large-scale immigration of European Jews to Palestine, the Zionists inevitably manage to conquer all of Mandatory Palestine in the struggle with the Arabs, and quite possibly add valuable border areas such as the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon, and the East Bank of the Jordan Valley to their booty, creating Greater Israel. The Arab population almost entirely flees or is expelled to swell the ranks of the refugees in the Arab countries.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 2, 2018 18:09:59 GMT
Hi,
i have some serious problems with this scenario, because some VERY important points are not covered by it.
Poland was seen as the first step to far - with the british guarantee... the bridge was burned after the annexion of chechia, that is before this.
For sure the french and british would have loved to see germany and russia bleed itself to death - but they also rightfully recognized that germany was the much more evil and dangerous enemy. You need to remove churchill from the scenario (killed by accident).
Also - the germans need to avoid their Z-plan, that was allready a declaration of war against UK. Italy - was looking very hard on greece allready... i cannot see em ignoring their "core interests" and push for russia. SO personally i would drop em out, maybe some army of "liberty fighters" later on.
But lets say that poland is conquered and the british and french do not declare war. The axis against russia - alone and with no support for the russians - is a clear and easy win for germany. But only if they trust the french not to attack at some point in the west. OTL they could leave IN france some forces and move most forces into the east. Here the most powerfull army in the world is sitting directly at the german border, behind "unbreakable" fortresses, rearming and modernizing their military. Germany could mount what? 20 static division into the frontline? But they will know they have no chance of stopping them if they come. So nobody, not even insane hitler will let this happen. That is my second critical point with this scenario.
The timining is also problematic. OTL russia strikes against finnland with germany in the war with france and uk. I have troubles to see him doing the same without this war. If he doesn´t do that, his army is even more fragile. Unfortunatly for the germans, without the benelux and france to plunder they lack a lot motorisation.
But again - lets say they decide to gamble and stalin is still surprised. If the germans launch their attack in june 41, they could harm the russians much more, with no need to build so many subs they could build much more diesel engines (smaller ones) for trucks and tanks. They do not need so many AA guns and ammo for them, so in a 3 years fight the germans are -in 1944 - on a rough line Leningrad (taken or not) - Smolensk - Stalingrad in a much more powerfull situation. The airforce dominate the skies, the army is burned out, but still powerfull, with at last 4x the tanks of OTL, 10x the anti tank guns of OTL, so russian striks against the german forces would be VERY costly. But russia is to large to conquer it, with the brutal regime in the occupied areas you have a full partisan war, you cannot win.
And here we have not 5 strong armies in the west to protect against france
Sorry - i do not see your scenario be plausible, but i hope my critics wasn´t seen as trolling.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jul 2, 2018 21:02:58 GMT
Ok, let's try to address your points as best as I can. You may notice the scenario explictly states TTL Germany postpones the partition of post-Munich Czechoslovakia until after the Eastern War has started, and then nobody really notices or cares. So the Germans burn no bridges, Britain does not feel betrayed and remains in appeasement mode, and does not care to give Poland any military guarantee. I also see no problem with Germany avoiding Plan Z and u-boat build-up, and sticking to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Precisely because Britain remains non-confrontational about Poland, and Germany is preparing for a land conflict in the East, the German leaders decide naval build-up is an unnecessary provocation and a serious waste of resources, so they postpone it, and when the Eastern War starts, it gets entirely scrapped.
I work from the assumption ITTL the prevailing assessment in Western public opinion is appeasement worked, the Axis powers left Western Europe and China alone and got busy fighting the equally troublesome Soviets. So Churchill's arguments are discredited (giving Germany what it wanted did not pave the way to it attacking the Western powers) and he remains the marginal, powerless, and controversial political figure he was during the early and mid 1930s, only more so since he looks like the boy crying wolf. But if you wish to err on the safe side, it is child's play to add a nasty accident during the 1930s that claims Churchill's life - the scenario already assumes the first PoD occurs in early 1936 to provide for the avoidance of the Second Sino-Japanese War. It is not any really difficult to extend it backwards to 1931 and ensure that car accident near-miss instead killed Churchill, or come up with an unknown ATL lethal accident in 1936-39.
Italy was looking very hard on the *Western Balkans*, not Greece alone or even as first choice. As a matter of fact, IOTL Mussolini's original target after Albania was Yugoslavia, he only changed it when Hitler made a veto (until the anti-Axis coup in Belgrad occured, that is). ITTL the German veto does not take place since Berlin and Rome agree to exchange German support for dismantlement of Yugoslavia for Italian support for Barbarossa. Italy does much better against Yugoslavia than against Greece for several reasons (better logistics, this is the war the Italian army long prepared for, Hungary's and Bulgaria's help, Croat, Macedonian, and Albanian separatist groups acting as a fifth column) and wins the war, leading to a 1941-style partition. Depending on circumstances, the Wehrmacht may or may not get directly involved in the conquest of Yugoslavia, but it is irrelevant. This success makes Mussolini satisfied enough he leaves Greece alone, and then Italy shifts gears to support Germany when the Eastern War starts. As far as I can tell, the Western powers cared relatively little about the integrity of Yugoslavia (IOTL they gave it no militay guarantee, unlike Poland, Romania, and Greece), so I doubt they would greatly upset from its demise, especially if the Axis states covertly support separatist groups and the crisis seemingly starts because of Yugoslavia's domestic instability.
A necessary component of this scenario is to assume TTL Hitler for whatever reason trusts France won't attack Germany while it is busy fighting Russia. It needs to happen, or the scenario falls apart. I think the best I can offer you in this regard is to assume the Eastern conflict does not start because Germany does a planned and prepared purposeful attack as OTL. Rather, it is a local crisis in Eastern Europe that escalates beyond Hitler's and Stalin's immediate plans and intentions, probably something the USSR does during the implementation of its expansionist agenda and Hitler perceives as a Soviet violation of the M-R Pact. It might be Soviet occupation of Lithuania, or perhaps even better TTL Romania does not accept the Soviet ultimatum, and the Red Army invades Bessarabia and Bukovina. Hitler acknowledges Soviet conquest of Bukovina as a violation of the pact, gets worried Stalin may seize the Romanian oilfields, and orders the Wehrmacht to support the Romanians. Stalin feels Germany broke the deal, and orders the Red Army to invade Poland. Germany and the USSR are now locked in a state of war. Since the war occurs before the timetable Hitler planned, he didn't have time to make up his mind about France, whether to trust it would stay neutral and leave it alone, or engage in a pre-emptive invasion of Western Europe. Now however events make the decision for him, the Eastern war has already started so Germany cannot absolutely afford a two-front conflict if they can avoid it, it was its doom in WWI. Hitler was aware of this and keen to avoid a two-front war in 1939-40, it was the very point of the M-R Pact. So ITTL he has to make the best of the situation and rely on the neutrality of Britain and France. Howover, events soon show Britain and France perceive the situation as satisfying and have no intention of getting involved.
This kind of event sequence likely requires the Eastern War starts sometime in 1940 by Germany and Russia stumbling into it rather than in 1941 by a Barbarossa-style attack. Germany does not have the resources of Western Europe to plunder, but it has free access to world markets, nobody is imposing a blockade or embargo on the Axis powers. It lacks the experience of the Battle of France, but also did not waste anything fighting it, nor BoB or Weseberung for that matter. It also has full support from the undivided military power of Italy (it is not fighting in the Med and North Africa) and of Japan (it is not fighting in China, Southeast Asia, or the Pacific). The Red Army is still its Winter War crappy self, since the war occurs in 1940. Its only real advantage is Germany and Italy may need to leave some forces to shield their Western border against France and the Wehrmacht is less experienced. On the other hand, there is no military or economic support for the Soviets from the Western Allies, and the Japanese open a second front in the Far East. Yugoslavia in all likelihood is a relatively quick affair (at most if the Wehrmacht is not directly involved it takes a few months instead of a few weeks) and then the Axis forces at most only have occupation duties in the Western Balkans and Manchuria besides the Eastern and Far Eastern fronts.
As an aside, ITTL nobody in the Western world but Jews and Communists has a good reason to think of Nazi Germany as more dangerous and evil than Soviet Russia. From their perspective, Germany just pursued its long-known list of irredentist claims, by heavy-handed means but with some good justifications, and then it stumbled in an all-out war at most it bore only half of the blame for with a just as nasty totalitarian power. ITTL its reputation as a reckless recidivist aggressor is much diminished or almost non-existent. TTL strategic and international PR circumstances also drive it to accept Vichy Poland, the Baltic states, and the Ukrainians as short-term allies of convenience in the Axis coalition no matter what its true long-term intentions of racial colonization, and to dispose of the Jews by sending them to Palestine. War in Eastern Europe, peace with the Axis, and international pressure force the British to tear up the White Paper and open the gates to large-scale Zionist immigration. Therefore, a lot of the genocidal racist nastiness is much diminished, also because with full access to world markets the Axis war machine has much less need to exploit occupied areas to the bone to feed itself.
Of course, stuff such as mass killing of Soviet political commissars and massacres of Soviet, Yugoslav, and Ethiopian partisans and their sympathizers is still going to happen, but I doubt the West is going to lose much sleep over it or even notice overmuch. Especially once the advancing Axis armies start gathering evidence of Stalinist atrocities and publicize them to the world with their propaganda machine to feed a moral equivalence narrative. As it concerns Japan, ITTL it avoids the invasion of China, so the bulk of its war crimes does not happen, and its intervention in the conflict takes place in low-populated northern Manchuria, Mongolia, and Russian Far East. At most, some serious mistreatment of Soviet PoW and hostile civilians in conquered areas is going to happen, but again not stuff the West is going to notice or care for overmuch, given its stance about the occupation of Manchuria. Circumstances are favorable to the Western democracies embracing a narrative and stance about the Axis-Soviet conflict that is much similar to the one they picked for the Iran-Iraq War.
I did not explictly state it in the scenario, but I share your opinion in these circumstances, an Axis success is in the cards. As far as I can tell the most likely outcome in 2-3 years the conflict has been pretty exhausting for both sides but the Axis forces are where they stood in 1941-42, have seized Leningrad, and are painfully closing on Moscow, Stalingrad, and the Caucasus. Then Stalin offers favourable peace terms out of desperation to save the Soviet regime like Lenin did in 1918. Britain and France start to make saber-rattling rumors since they fear an Axis total victory. Out of concern for a two-front war with the bulk of the Wehrmacht still tied down in Russia, Hitler reluctantly accepts a Brest-Litovsk 2.0 peace and Japan seizes the Russian Far East.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 3, 2018 10:22:29 GMT
Ok, let's try to address your points as best as I can. You may notice the scenario explictly states TTL Germany postpones the partition of post-Munich Czechoslovakia until after the Eastern War has started, and then nobody really notices or cares. So the Germans burn no bridges, Britain does not feel betrayed and remains in appeasement mode, and does not care to give Poland any military guarantee. I also see no problem with Germany avoiding Plan Z and u-boat build-up, and sticking to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Precisely because Britain remains non-confrontational about Poland, and Germany is preparing for a land conflict in the East, the German leaders decide naval build-up is an unnecessary provocation and a serious waste of resources, so they postpone it, and when the Eastern War starts, it gets entirely scrapped. I work from the assumption ITTL the prevailing assessment in Western public opinion is appeasement worked, the Axis powers left Western Europe and China alone and got busy fighting the equally troublesome Soviets. So Churchill's arguments are discredited (giving Germany what it wanted did not pave the way to it attacking the Western powers) and he remains the marginal, powerless, and controversial political figure he was during the early and mid 1930s, only more so since he looks like the boy crying wolf. But if you wish to err on the safe side, it is child's play to add a nasty accident during the 1930s that claims Churchill's life - the scenario already assumes the first PoD occurs in early 1936 to provide for the avoidance of the Second Sino-Japanese War. It is not any really difficult to extend it backwards to 1931 and ensure that car accident near-miss instead killed Churchill, or come up with an unknown ATL lethal accident in 1936-39. Italy was looking very hard on the *Western Balkans*, not Greece alone or even as first choice. As a matter of fact, IOTL Mussolini's original target after Albania was Yugoslavia, he only changed it when Hitler made a veto (until the anti-Axis coup in Belgrad occured, that is). ITTL the German veto does not take place since Berlin and Rome agree to exchange German support for dismantlement of Yugoslavia for Italian support for Barbarossa. Italy does much better against Yugoslavia than against Greece for several reasons (better logistics, this is the war the Italian army long prepared for, Hungary's and Bulgaria's help, Croat, Macedonian, and Albanian separatist groups acting as a fifth column) and wins the war, leading to a 1941-style partition. Depending on circumstances, the Wehrmacht may or may not get directly involved in the conquest of Yugoslavia, but it is irrelevant. This success makes Mussolini satisfied enough he leaves Greece alone, and then Italy shifts gears to support Germany when the Eastern War starts. As far as I can tell, the Western powers cared relatively little about the integrity of Yugoslavia (IOTL they gave it no militay guarantee, unlike Poland, Romania, and Greece), so I doubt they would greatly upset from its demise, especially if the Axis states covertly support separatist groups and the crisis seemingly starts because of Yugoslavia's domestic instability. A necessary component of this scenario is to assume TTL Hitler for whatever reason trusts France won't attack Germany while it is busy fighting Russia. It needs to happen, or the scenario falls apart. I think the best I can offer you in this regard is to assume the Eastern conflict does not start because Germany does a planned and prepared purposeful attack as OTL. Rather, it is a local crisis in Eastern Europe that escalates beyond Hitler's and Stalin's immediate plans and intentions, probably something the USSR does during the implementation of its expansionist agenda and Hitler perceives as a Soviet violation of the M-R Pact. It might be Soviet occupation of Lithuania, or perhaps even better TTL Romania does not accept the Soviet ultimatum, and the Red Army invades Bessarabia and Bukovina. Hitler acknowledges Soviet conquest of Bukovina as a violation of the pact, gets worried Stalin may seize the Romanian oilfields, and orders the Wehrmacht to support the Romanians. Stalin feels Germany broke the deal, and orders the Red Army to invade Poland. Germany and the USSR are now locked in a state of war. Since the war occurs before the timetable Hitler planned, he didn't have time to make up his mind about France, whether to trust it would stay neutral and leave it alone, or engage in a pre-emptive invasion of Western Europe. Now however events make the decision for him, the Eastern war has already started so Germany cannot absolutely afford a two-front conflict if they can avoid it, it was its doom in WWI. Hitler was aware of this and keen to avoid a two-front war in 1939-40, it was the very point of the M-R Pact. So ITTL he has to make the best of the situation and rely on the neutrality of Britain and France. Howover, events soon show Britain and France perceive the situation as satisfying and have no intention of getting involved. This kind of event sequence likely requires the Eastern War starts sometime in 1940 by Germany and Russia stumbling into it rather than in 1941 by a Barbarossa-style attack. Germany does not have the resources of Western Europe to plunder, but it has free access to world markets, nobody is imposing a blockade or embargo on the Axis powers. It lacks the experience of the Battle of France, but also did not waste anything fighting it, nor BoB or Weseberung for that matter. It also has full support from the undivided military power of Italy (it is not fighting in the Med and North Africa) and of Japan (it is not fighting in China, Southeast Asia, or the Pacific). The Red Army is still its Winter War crappy self, since the war occurs in 1940. Its only real advantage is Germany and Italy may need to leave some forces to shield their Western border against France and the Wehrmacht is less experienced. On the other hand, there is no military or economic support for the Soviets from the Western Allies, and the Japanese open a second front in the Far East. Yugoslavia in all likelihood is a relatively quick affair (at most if the Wehrmacht is not directly involved it takes a few months instead of a few weeks) and then the Axis forces at most only have occupation duties in the Western Balkans and Manchuria besides the Eastern and Far Eastern fronts. As an aside, ITTL nobody in the Western world but Jews and Communists has a good reason to think of Nazi Germany as more dangerous and evil than Soviet Russia. From their perspective, Germany just pursued its long-known list of irredentist claims, by heavy-handed means but with some good justifications, and then it stumbled in an all-out war at most it bore only half of the blame for with a just as nasty totalitarian power. ITTL its reputation as a reckless recidivist aggressor is much diminished or almost non-existent. TTL strategic and international PR circumstances also drive it to accept Vichy Poland, the Baltic states, and the Ukrainians as short-term allies of convenience in the Axis coalition no matter what its true long-term intentions of racial colonization, and to dispose of the Jews by sending them to Palestine. War in Eastern Europe, peace with the Axis, and international pressure force the British to tear up the White Paper and open the gates to large-scale Zionist immigration. Therefore, a lot of the genocidal racist nastiness is much diminished, also because with full access to world markets the Axis war machine has much less need to exploit occupied areas to the bone to feed itself. Of course, stuff such as mass killing of Soviet political commissars and massacres of Soviet, Yugoslav, and Ethiopian partisans and their sympathizers is still going to happen, but I doubt the West is going to lose much sleep over it or even notice overmuch. Especially once the advancing Axis armies start gathering evidence of Stalinist atrocities and publicize them to the world with their propaganda machine to feed a moral equivalence narrative. As it concerns Japan, ITTL it avoids the invasion of China, so the bulk of its war crimes does not happen, and its intervention in the conflict takes place in low-populated northern Manchuria, Mongolia, and Russian Far East. At most, some serious mistreatment of Soviet PoW and hostile civilians in conquered areas is going to happen, but again not stuff the West is going to notice or care for overmuch, given its stance about the occupation of Manchuria. Circumstances are favorable to the Western democracies embracing a narrative and stance about the Axis-Soviet conflict that is much similar to the one they picked for the Iran-Iraq War. I did not explictly state it in the scenario, but I share your opinion in these circumstances, an Axis success is in the cards. As far as I can tell the most likely outcome in 2-3 years the conflict has been pretty exhausting for both sides but the Axis forces are where they stood in 1941-42, have seized Leningrad, and are painfully closing on Moscow, Stalingrad, and the Caucasus. Then Stalin offers favourable peace terms out of desperation to save the Soviet regime like Lenin did in 1918. Britain and France start to make saber-rattling rumors since they fear an Axis total victory. Out of concern for a two-front war with the bulk of the Wehrmacht still tied down in Russia, Hitler reluctantly accepts a Brest-Litovsk 2.0 peace and Japan seizes the Russian Far East. Hi, so no Z-plan, Churchill killed (needed in my opinion) and some trigger postphoned. We also ignore the "france could backstab the nazis"-point, because it kill the plot? Fine, that helps Well - that close some problems, but raise some others. Here some points that need to calculated in: - The germans NEED checheslovakia for its armament industry, also the loot (gold). How do they survive without that? If they delay that, they also lack the time to include the industrial efficency of that area - the OTL timing was needed and still these factories started only to produce in significant numbers in early 1942. Here - with 2 years delay (if i understood correctly) they are basically useless for that war. This is VERY bad for the german economy. - i strongly disagree about the "we do not care about yugoslavia"-attitude of the british and french. Sorry - for that they have to drink to much lead to survive. I try to explain: OTL they had their hand full of nazi conquering western europe. Here they will not do that. Italy dreaming about mare-nostre will not fail to draw interest in UK, i could not see em ignoring that. Sorry. I am strictly opposed to the "the british will allways find a solution"-fanboys that are spread so strong around in nearly every forum, but i think they will use their brains. So greece, albania, yugoslavia will get quickly british guarantees - esp. with germany having nil interest in fighting here. Italy is either castrated by that or they start a war that will draw UK, later france in. So to save your scenario you need to get rid of mussolini, say he get tripper from one of his prostitutes and - because he do not care it - dies at an infection. The follow up ruler is sane(r), recognize how weak italy is - but as a strong anticommunist - still support hitler (he could also be a fan or so... your story). With that you "heal" the problem "mediterain", in fact if you do the timing right the french and british could even be less worried about the situation, say italy stop its naval build up... what ever. - the mobility of the german army, without the looted vehicles from western europe mean they are in 1941 maybe only to a 1/3 as mobile as OTL. Yes, it was as bad. This has a huge impact at the efficency of the german army, because the supplies for infantry, mobile infantry and ammo for guns is much reduced. On the plus you do not loose 2500 planes in a time you produce only a few per month (BOF, BOB, Balkan, Norway, africa)... - one point i think you really underestimate is the political situation. It wasn´t the "nazis" who were seen as a problem, it was germany itself. I tried to explain that in that time the nazis were seen as puppets of evil german generals, planning to conquer the world. Such germany, military strong that crushed polen (together with Stalin!) and take out the balkan (more or less)will raise alarm bells in UK and france... esp. france. Germany CANNOT move in strengh against russia AND keep a defence position against france (and quickly UK). It wasn´t only Churchill who was ready to support stalin (Churchill hated the communists) against the germans, but basically ALL leading politicans in UK. So the moment the germans launch an attack against russia, bah - even if the russians attack and the germans succsessfully counterattack, the british will get really alarmed, they will build up forces in norway (to protect sealanes... ha ha ha..), france, etc. It is similar to some questions about the pacific war - could the japanese ignore the philippines (to avoid to attack the USA). No, they couldn´t, the same is true for Hitler and the nazis. With france existing as a military force (and they all belived that france had the strongest army on the planet - even the germans thought that (beside some minors like Guderian, Manstein, etc.)) the germans cannot strike If you remove that threat (say france is itself a facistic regime), you trigger UK much more as OTL, so you face still a hostile british empire, that will - together with the USA - massivly support the enemies of these faschists... Also do not forget Roosevelt, he REALLY hated germany and every german, the idea that these would gain power would cause massive reactions by him. An early death dosen´t help, because the people he had around him and were in the "second row in washington" were even more hostile to germany, even more leaning to the USSR. it is an interesting case - to find out how much or how long the russians and the germans could fight each other, but the premise is to difficulty to change. At last from my point of view Sorry...
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eurofed
Banned
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Post by eurofed on Jul 7, 2018 1:59:41 GMT
In Doylist terms, yes, we sidestep the “France could backstab Germany” point because it would harm the story. In Watsonian terms, it gets irrelevant because of the event sequence that starts the Axis-Soviet conflict. We need to put aside the assumption it begins with a Barbarossa-style German attack. Instead, during one step of the Soviet expansionist program (broadly speaking, Romania > Lithuania > Finland > Turkey in order of likelihood) something happens that Germany interprets as a Soviet violation of their pact, and the Germans react to by providing military support to the victims of Soviet aggression. The Soviets in turn interpret this as a German violation of their pact, and escalate by attacking in Poland. The conflict quickly spreads across Eastern Europe at the border between Axis-aligned states and the USSR, beyond either side's plans and expectations, and before the belligerants are truly prepared to fight it. From the outside, it basically looks like the Soviets attack, and the Germans successfully defend and counterattack. This happens before the Germans can make up their mind whether France can be safely trusted or not to stay neutral in case of a German-Soviet conflict, and act accordingly. The flashpoint and escalation also happen well before any planned German (or Soviet for that matter) attack.
At this point, the very best Germany can do is to fight the Soviets with as many resources and allies they can muster, protect itself from a possible French attack with as little forces they can safely afford, and try to keep France appeased by diplomatic and PR means as best as they can do. Remember, Britain, France, and America are democracies that up to the PoD and ITTL beyond were in a strong appeasement/isolationist and pacifist mood for years out of the painful memories of WWI. Their leaders cannot start pre-emptive wars on a whim out of abstract balance of power concerns without provocation, a plausible casus belli, sufficient political consensus, suitable propaganda preparation of public opinion, and so on.
In this regard, it is wrong and misleading to treat the likes of Churchill and Roosevelt as all-powerful political gods or dictators that could bring their countries in whatever wars their whims dictated out of coercion or sheer charisma. Neither their countries ever worked as monolithic entities that would automatically act aggressively when some abstract balance of power criteria gets violated by some foreign power, regardless of circumstances. It was never so, up to a point a large and influential portion of the elites and public opinion in their countries supported appeasement or isolationism, and up to a point they were politically dominant. This is why in 1937-41 FDR was utterly unable to bring America in a war with Germany and Japan before Pearl Harbor despite blatantly wishing for one, and why Britain supported appeasement up to occupation of Czechoslovakia, and why Churchill did not become PM until the Battle of France.
As it concerns FDR, it is easy to add an event sequence to the scenario that gets him and his associates out of the White House by 1940, and replace them with an Administration that shall stick to a non-interventionist agenda for the duration of the Axis-Soviet War. Let’s just assume TTL Roosevelt doubles down with his OTL schemes to 'pack' the courts and enact a political purge in the 1938 midterm Democratic primaries to get rid of New Deal opponents. This explodes in his face worse that OTL, getting an even stronger Conservative Coalition of Republicans and conservative democrats in control of the Congress that opposes his policies. The sheer stress of this setback accelerates the decline of his health and heightened scrutiny brings all kinds of skeletons in his closet to the surface (his poor health, his marital infidelity, Communist infiltration of his Administration, his underhanded schemes to bring America in a war) as scandals that discredit him and his platform, reducing the influence and popularity of his faction. He dies by stroke in 1939-40 and his death throws the Democratic party in disarray with a succession fight between supporters and opponents of his policies. These events send wind in the sails of the isolationist faction of the GOP, either Taft or Lindbergh wins the Republican nomination and then the Presidency in 1940, and you have an hardcore isolationist in the White House with anti-interventionists in control of the Congress.
As it concerns Britain, TTL Churchill has been dead since 1931 and the appeasers remain in full control of British political agenda. IOTL Baldwin and Chamberlain seriously considered declaring British strategic interests in Europe stopped at the Rhine (and the Turkish Straits). TTL British government sticks to that standard, because they realize they are powerless to influence events in Eastern Europe if Germany and Russia fight over it or collude to impose their preferred course on it, short of fighting both powers at once in a war they cannot win, and/or the effort drastically accelerating their decline as imperial great powers. The appeasers stay in power because, as long as neither Germany nor Russia seizes a decisive victory, appeasement worked just as planned by tying the Germans and the Russians in a conflict that makes them too busy to threaten Western strategic interests in Western Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia, and the Far East. Pretty much the same point applies about Italy, the Balkans, and the Med.
Sure, they are going to make some sensible contingency preparations in the case the crisis somehow goes out of control, such as continuing their rearmament and deploying more troops and assets in France or their holdings in the Middle East or Southeast Asia. A deployment of Entente forces in neutral countries such as Denmark, Norway, the Low Countries, Greece, or Turkey instead is not realistically going to happen since their governments would refuse it to protect their neutrality and avoid provoking the Axis powers or the USSR and forceful entry would be an unjustified act of war with obvious repercussions. Sure, they would get alarmed and start to make pressure on the winning side dangling the threat of their intervention if it seems to win too much, such as say the Axis forces getting close to Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad, or the Soviets crossing the 1914 border. But as long as the belligerent powers are still fighting it out relatively close to prewar borders with no clear winner yet, the Western powers have no reason whatsoever to take sides.
This most definitely includes TTL Germany, which up to this point basically enforced its long-standing and not so unreasonable irredentist agenda everybody knew about since before the ink on the Versailles treaty was dry, and then stumbled in a conflict with Russia which the Soviets are at least just as guilty of starting. If Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Yugoslavia were collateral victims of this vast conflict too bad, but shit happens; blame the flaws of the Versailles settlement. Nothing the Entente powers can do about it, any intervention of theirs would either fail or upset the strategic balance, making the geopolitical situation worse for the West. Conspiracy theories about the German generals using the Nazis as puppets to conquer the world are not going to find much credence in this context, and shall stay marginal until something like the Battle of France happens.
I may point out that precisely because TTL Nazi Germany has a need to keep Britain and France neutral and appeased, it embraces certain moderate policies its OTL counterpart did not. This includes avoidance of an overt GPO approach for Eastern Europe and instead ostensibly accepting Vichy Poland, the Baltics, and the Ukrainians as allies, scrapping Plan Z, limiting its gains from Poland to the 1914 borders and otherwise restoring a collaborationist Polish state, settling the Jew problem by sending them to Palestine, and so on. For the same reason, once the Axis powers are really getting close to a decisive victory because of favorable circumstances, and the Entente powers really start making unhappy, saber-rattling rumors, the Axis leaders are quite likely to accept a Brest-Litovsk-type peace deal, rather than pressing for a total victory and risking a Western intervention and a troublesome two-front war.
As it concerns the Balkans, rather than generic assumptions about British and French behavior being shaped by abstract balance of power calculations, I prefer to base my own assumptions on specific OTL evidence. First, Britain and France hardly showed any real reaction to Italian annexation of Albania in 1939, also because the area had been a well-known expansionist objective of Italy for generations and in its sphere of influence for a couple decades. ITTL it is surely going to happen the same way. Second, to the degree they showed a reaction, it got conflated with the one to German seizure of Czechoslovakia, which happened in the same period and involved Britain giving military guarantees to Poland, Romania, and Greece, but NOT Yugoslavia. The absence is telling, and IMO decisive to adjudicate British reactions to a crisis in interwar Yugoslavia. The British never really cared much about the Serbs and their ambitions for a little empire, either before or after WWI. Yugoslavia was almost entirely a creation of Serbian/Panslav nationalism and France striving at Versailles to set up a chain of pro-Entente states in Eastern Europe to bind Germany. By the late 1930s, the French had almost entirely given up this approach and passively followed the lead of Britain.
As it concerns the British, sure they had relevant strategic interests in the Med, but they were essentially focused on their imperial holdings in Egypt, the Middle East, Central Asia, and India, by extension a drive to keep the Turkish Straits free from Russian control, and hence Greece and Turkey. The inland depths of the Balkans, nowhere so much. Pretty much the same point applies for France and their colonies in North Africa and the Middle East. For these reasons, I am quite skeptical Britain and France are going to be upset so much for the downfall of Yugoslavia as to take serious action against its authors. Especially since (contacts and plans existed for this in the interwar period) ITTL the downfall occurs as a result of the Axis states covertly supporting separatist groups of restive nationalities (Croats, Macedonian Bulgarians, and Kosovo Albanians) into starting an uprising and then all the neighbor states intervene to impose a partition as a peacekeeping settlement. At that point, it would seem Yugoslavia collapsed because of its own domestic instability, and nobody in the region but the Serbs wanted it to survive. If the Italians first get busy with Albania and Yugoslavia, then with fighting the Soviets, they never get to threaten the *real* Anglo-French interests in the Med, which is rather convenient for London and Paris and spares them the considerable effort of taking down a second-tier great power.
I expect the Axis-Soviet War to start sometime between end of 1939 and middle 1940, so German annexation of Bohemia-Moravia and full exploitation of its industrial and financial resources would start more or less a year later than OTL. To some degree, part of it would likely be feasible before than that, since Czechoslovakia turned into a client of Germany after Munich. Yes, this is going to have some significant negative effect on the German war machine. So would also the fact Germany cannot loot conquered Western Europe for resources. On the other hand, another important factor in the Axis’ favor you seem oblivious of is they have full access to world markets. Nobody is going to impose blockades or embargoes on them. This would be a game changer for the Axis powers, as much as or more than the above factors you emphasized. Not to mention the fact that, being at peace with the Western powers, Germany, Italy, and Japan can spare building a lot of ships, submarines, and A-A defense, and use the extra resources to build more tanks and trucks. They shall have lot of fuel for them, thanks to lack of blockade, and all the planes they can build go to the Eastern front.
France turning fascist and supporting the Axis in its anti-Soviet crusade with Britain and the USA sticking to neutrality is an interesting scenario of its own, but a different one from the one we are discussing here, and one actually not so original as WWII variants go. It is basically the tale of Britain being forced to make peace sometime between the Fall of France and the start of Barbarossa. It can easily happen if say 1) a total disaster at Dunkirk, invasion panic, and Churchill not being around scare Britain into peace after the Fall of France. Alternatively, 2) Germany avoiding the BoB in favor of a Med strategy, Italy performing well, and efficient Axis strategic coordination get Britain kicked out of Med and the Middle East and losing the will to fight. Or 3) the USSR temporarily joins the Axis before Barbarossa because of Operation Pike or successful Axis-Soviet alliance negotiations in 1940, or even more decisively, 2) and 3) happening simultaneously. If Britain drops out of the war in 1940 or early 1941, it would be exceedingly difficult for the British rejoining it after being defeated as long as the Axis seems winning, Japan is not going to do any Pearl Harbor since it would suffer no embargo or it would have no teeth, and the USA would lack any realistic casus belli or strategic platform to intervene in Europe. I did not pursue this kind of scenario here because it seemed less original and made things almost too easy for the Axis.
By the way, France having turned fascist and pro-Axis for good after the armistice and Petain's takeover is an important geopolitical factor that people often forget when discussing a possible Anglo-German peace in 1940-41. Before things started going really bad for the Axis, the Vichy regime had a lot of popular backing, international and domestic legitimacy, and support from the colonies in 1940-42, in everything that mattered it was France. The mainland resistance was a fringe, De Gaulle was an insignificant rogue that recruited the grand total of 7,000 people for his army, and almost all the colonies aligned with Vichy until the British conquered them. The one significant exception was French Equatorial Africa whose governor despised Nazi Germany for obvious reasons since he was Black. Even if Britain makes peace and the Wehrmacht pulls out from France, the Vichy regime is going to stay and be even stronger from the Axis' victory.
Another aside point, the argument Japan could not afford to leave the US Pacific Fleet or the Phiippines alone if it makes a drive to seize the European colonies in Southeast Asia is only valid if one makes the wrong assumption FDR was a dictator that could bring America in a war according to his whim. The Japanese made this very mistake in their strategic calculations because they wrongly projected their own authoritarian system on America and assumed it worked the same way. They failed to understand the real workings of American democracy and the complexity of its political system. In practice, FDR would have had very serious difficulties persuading the isolationist-minded American people to declare war on its own initiative to Japan in a quest to preserve European colonial empires in Asia if US territory had been left intact. The same reasons would have applied why he was utterly unable to bring America in a war against Japan or Germany in 1937-41 despite his blatant wish to do so and underhanded schemes to create a pretext.
Last but not least, France going fascist and pro-Axis in the interwar period is actually an interesting and original idea. Broadly speaking, I think a good way of enacting it would be the occurence of a civil war, Spanish Civil War style, between French far-leftists and far-rightists. Possible PoDs might be the things going pear-shaped for France in the postwar period (economic collapse, the Soviets winning in Poland and making a grab for Europe, bungled invasion of the Rhineland) or the Popular Front causing so much polarization it explodes in any armed conflict by pushing too hard, too soon for socialist reforms Allende-style and trying to intervene in Spain on the side of the Republicans. I assume it would require a somewhat more nuanced and complex foreign-policy approach on the part of the UK than simply going "Allies smash" on the fascist powers with the USA in tow. If nothing else because a full-fledged 'Carolingian' fascist coalition of France, Germany, and Italy would be utterly undefeatable for Britain alone and one cannot simply take for granted America is always going to turn interventionist, anti-fascist, Anglophile, and pro-Soviet in any case. The British could attempt a "Napoleonic Wars"-style alliance with the Soviets but it would have its obvious disadvantages and it is far from certain or even likely it would be able to win. Heck, giving the full resources of an intact and willing France to the Axis coalition would make much more difficult and costly even for the OTL Allies to win (far from impossible, surely, thanks to the USA's vast resources, but democratic nations may lose the will to fight). Or the British might actually write off democracy in the continent as a lost cause for the current generation or two, avoid creating hostility from the fascist bloc with its own hostile attitude, let it pick a fight (in Cold War or armed fighting terms according to circumstances) with the USSR, and let the totalitarians stew in their own juices until their systems wither, decay, and collapse.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 12, 2018 7:57:23 GMT
HI,
sorry to again disagree with you.
Personally i see the problem in a different opinion about how the world was seen by the leaders of the countries in the time 1938-41.
France was absolute hostile against germany. 100%. No agreements. They were the "archenemy" the nazis told their people. The same - after munich - is true for UK. Not only Churchill, most politicans supported the massive modernisation of the fleet and airforce - you easily could see then it started. It was with munich. Basically Neville bought the Entente time and Hitler helped them with his - predictable - agressive, criminal moves.
With a sole war germany-russia you still need large areas (mostly poland, but the former checheslovakia) in german hands. The delay of needed armor, guns, ammo, weapons we had discussed. I think you underestimate the NEED for these vehicles for the german army - but that is just my opinion about that.
The world trade is not usable for the germans. Why? They have no money to spent. Period. They were broken - compared with them greece is a full-power-healthy economy. They had to go to war "now", or they crash their whole system - beyond repair.
The nazis weren´t save in germany - they bought the population with jobs (who had no real base), social goodies (by plundering jewish people of germany) and the premise that germany would not fight in a war (how ironical this is!)
A war with russia - say after poland is parted similar to OTL (without the Allies declaring war - that is near ASB but lets say that happen) with no save back is nothing the german population would support. The nazis lack their string of great victories against "stronger" enemies (again - france 1940 was seen as the strongest army in the world) and the russians hadn´t suffered their defeat against finnland.
Yes, the german airforce is MUCH stronger, but they also lack a lot combat experience, something that was also useful for the 10:1-results in the air.
You can turn the USA into isolation, but it wasn´t FDR alone who was deadly in opposition to the nazis. The nazi rants against jews, the mistreatment of jewish live in germany and the expulsion of jewish elite meant that these people, many with excellent connections into US-politics, either direct or indirect - would do everything to crush the nazi scum. So the USA WILL support the USSR, even if that is also a place of brutal murderer...
UK also cleary recognized - latest with munich - that war with the nazis was inevitable and acted that way. The german OKW could not ignore the french, propably also the british army at the borders. The germans lack norway (or do they invade it?), no secure route for the URGENTLY needed swedish ore, they could be cut of of urgently needed ressources from the balkan (Yugoslavia had some very needed ressources). World trade is nice and usefull, but if you lack money to pay for the stuff you want it is useless. Germany has no such money. They gain the gold of chechoslovakia, propably also the gold from poland. WIth this they could finance a bit their needs, but they need EVERYTHING. They looted the conquered countries not for nothing... they were not selfsufficent in food.
So fighting a war with the USSR mean they are mostly alone. Italy could send an army or two, but again their fighting ability depends on working weapons. If MatildaII could crush an army, what could T34 and KV1 do with them?
In the best case you have france - neutral but very hostile, you need around 50 divisions to cover that side, also around 400-500 airplanes. As long as you have no war you use no ammo, but you lack the strategic reserves. UK - hostile neutral, supporting the USSR massivly, against gold (helping the british war industry to build up for the war with the nazis) Italy - maybe a cobelligerent, but we have to solve greece and the african desert. If they fight here, they fight UK and are doomed. So it is difficulty to see a scenario in that italy do not start war with greece or UK not declaring war with italy in such scenario USA - very hostile neutral. Yes, no declaration of war, propably never. Because with the nazis not sinking US ships with subs or attacking UK the overall opinion by the population is less hostile. But the USA will still build up its army, airforce, navy and also sell stuff to the USSR, but NOT to the nazis. If this turn into something like LendLease? Depends on the succsess the nazis have against russia.
With these big players active against germany the germans fight a desperate war... for sure the russian army is bad, very bad. But the same is true for the german army. They have not crushed the french, they have not gained that "superior" feeling. Poland was clear to be crushed quickly, even if not so quick. But with no french defeat in 6 weeks and the broader experience gained by that massive campagin with "reduced" casulties - so the german army could gain experience without burning out - this is missing here.
Such engagements with russia would lead to succsess for the germans. But instead of reaching moscau, they would hang in the stalin-line, in a struggle with a country that could easily outproduce em, even without help from the allies.
Hitler on the other hand fear the november-revolution - that is clear, esp. why he switched to total-war-mode so late. He feared the german population would kick him out if the conditions would be similar to 1918. OTL the wonder victories changed the attitude of many germany, from neutral/hostile to war to open support for the "Größter Führer aller Zeiten". Here the "genius" of hitler caused a war with russia, without solving the problem with france. Nope, morale would be low.
Personally i belive you need a different scenario. Say the central powers win, but the USSR still come to existence. Germany stay strong, suffer not by versailles and - with no involvment by the world economic crisis of 1929 - stay strong even here. France - not winning fell into anarchy, is overall much weaker.
In such scenario Stalin (lets say here things develop as OTL) face a very strong germany, trained veterans, combat harden troops, colonies bringing strategic goods, the osman empire deliver oil in any numbers, AH as a partner to support you in the war against evil communism.
Then it is a different war, a different scenario.
But with OTL-stuff till munich, sorry, but sorry no.
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