Dan
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Post by Dan on Jun 26, 2018 7:16:20 GMT
Here's something to get your teeth into:
A little over 63 million years ago, an asteroid hit the Yucatán Peninsula causing the great extinction event that we're all familiar with and that has ultimately allowed this post to be made.
But, what happens if instead of hitting earth, it misses by a galactic fraction and smashes into the moon instead?
Would it act like a cue ball and cannon the moon into the earth? Would it be absorbed into the moon? Would it destroy the moon? Would Sauropods have remained the dominant life form or would mammals have risen anyway?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 26, 2018 11:19:00 GMT
Here's something to get your teeth into: A little over 63 million years ago, an asteroid hit the Yucatán Peninsula causing the great extinction event that we're all familiar with and that has ultimately allowed this post to be made. But, what happens if instead of hitting earth, it misses by a galactic fraction and smashes into the moon instead? Would it act like a cue ball and cannon the moon into the earth? Would it be absorbed into the moon? Would it destroy the moon? Would Sauropods have remained the dominant life form or would mammals have risen anyway?
It was an asteroid so pretty damned small compared to the moon. You would get another crater on it but that's about all. Not going to do anything significant to the moon's orbit.
In terms of Earth there are some signs that many dinosaurs were dying out already and that the strike just speed this up dramatically. Also by opening up a lot of slots for new species, especially large animals it caused a period of rapid growth in variety in times of mammals especially. Without it and with a slower decline you might see more and more successful mega birds emerging to challenge mammals for the top predator spot. Whether they could actually take over I don't know enough to say. They were the dominant hunters in S America for a long while but when a connection to N America was established those were quickly out-performed by mammals form the latter so they don't seem to have had the same capacity.
How things would have developed without the asteroid strike I don't know. Gut feeling is that mammals still emerge as top predators and also provide the vast bulk of other large animals. However it might take a bit more time. Likely some sort of primate might start developing hominid type characteristics but that might be a few million years later so it would still be large cats and dogs as the primary hunters and a large array of big mammals they prey on.
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James G
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Post by James G on Jun 26, 2018 17:50:13 GMT
I don't know much about the physics of such a thing nor much else on the subject to be of any help.
However, have you seen Oblivion? It is a not very good Tom Cruise film but with Andrea Riseborough too (Svetlana Stalin, yum!).
Anyway... one of the opening scenes shows the moon which was hit by a weapon - that isn't seen - but the results afterwards are where it is coming apart in the sky. It is just a shot but gives a lot to imagine on such an idea. From earth, the moon slowly breaking apart and the bits orbiting would be clearly visible.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 26, 2018 18:27:51 GMT
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 27, 2018 17:38:25 GMT
The effect on the moon would be small - just like the asteroid hat on the planet earth (if we talk about the core of the planet, not his biosphere).
So another crater, but nothing else.
For the earth - with the dinosaurs still hanging around you will see the more and more specialized kinds of "superior" species..
stevep is wrong about the dyingout of the dinosaurs... it seems he has old and outdated informations.
Infact the modern science has an opposite view. Yes, some classes of dinosaurs had got reduced, some had died out. But the carnivores (Tyranosaurides, but more so the small high intelligent species) had been developted further and had established as the superior predators.
Also we should not forget the air and the sea - lots of big predators, fishes and other creatures who OTL died out by the asteroid.
We cannot say how things would have settled, because 64 million years are way to long and to many butteflies flap.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 28, 2018 10:05:01 GMT
The effect on the moon would be small - just like the asteroid hat on the planet earth (if we talk about the core of the planet, not his biosphere). So another crater, but nothing else. For the earth - with the dinosaurs still hanging around you will see the more and more specialized kinds of "superior" species.. stevep is wrong about the dyingout of the dinosaurs... it seems he has old and outdated informations. Infact the modern science has an opposite view. Yes, some classes of dinosaurs had got reduced, some had died out. But the carnivores (Tyranosaurides, but more so the small high intelligent species) had been developted further and had established as the superior predators. Also we should not forget the air and the sea - lots of big predators, fishes and other creatures who OTL died out by the asteroid. We cannot say how things would have settled, because 64 million years are way to long and to many butteflies flap.
Possibly as I haven't kept up with the areas much recently. Know there used to be a lot of talk of major die-offs before the asteroid strike, including up to a few years ago. With various suggestions for the cause such as changes to dominant plants into types dinosaurs were having difficult eating and possibility of scavenging of their eggs on large scale by small mammals.
Would be interested if you can post a source on modern idea please Steffen.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 28, 2018 14:13:20 GMT
The effect on the moon would be small - just like the asteroid hat on the planet earth (if we talk about the core of the planet, not his biosphere). So another crater, but nothing else. For the earth - with the dinosaurs still hanging around you will see the more and more specialized kinds of "superior" species.. stevep is wrong about the dyingout of the dinosaurs... it seems he has old and outdated informations. Infact the modern science has an opposite view. Yes, some classes of dinosaurs had got reduced, some had died out. But the carnivores (Tyranosaurides, but more so the small high intelligent species) had been developted further and had established as the superior predators. Also we should not forget the air and the sea - lots of big predators, fishes and other creatures who OTL died out by the asteroid. We cannot say how things would have settled, because 64 million years are way to long and to many butteflies flap.
Possibly as I haven't kept up with the areas much recently. Know there used to be a lot of talk of major die-offs before the asteroid strike, including up to a few years ago. With various suggestions for the cause such as changes to dominant plants into types dinosaurs were having difficult eating and possibility of scavenging of their eggs on large scale by small mammals.
Would be interested if you can post a source on modern idea please Steffen.
Hi, no research in the normal way (as in "lets look for resupplying the 3rd army in the sector X for the time of 1.1.1916 to 1.10.1916"), but in the more passive way (by modern documentations (mostly in german on ARTE or ZDF-info)... in these they debunked the myth of the die-out of ALL dinosaurs, as some suggested because they found less fossiles in the timespan 70-65mio years before the impact. Instead they found more and more new kinds of dinosaurs. But yes, the number of DIFFERENT branches of dinosaurs was reduced. in these TV-documentations they explained why this was true - the climate changes - also by heavy volcanic activities - reduced the older kinds of dinosaurs a bit. But - the carnivors went smarter and smarter, the herbivores were more able to find food in a greater scale of plants... Also the idea - as often mentioned in these "die-out"-scenarios are sind around 2000 gone - because they found full feather dinosaur predators in china, allready in 120mio years before christ in china. I have forgotten the name of these "new" canivors, but science has pushed massivly in the last 2 decades. For example they now know that - at last the younger - T-rex were full feathered too... And that doesn´t answer how the sea animals (like the very large predators) would have died out. Nah - it needed the impact and the die-out of all animals that had a weight larger 10 or 20kg (i have forgotten if they wrote pound or Kilo) that dinosaurs were extingished. The living conditions changed - but the dinosaurs changed with them. Esp the raptors got smarter and smarter... If i find the title of some of these (modern) documentations, i can give em... by the way, dinosaurs aren´t extingished... they live  Turkey and other birds.... |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 28, 2018 15:37:04 GMT
Possibly as I haven't kept up with the areas much recently. Know there used to be a lot of talk of major die-offs before the asteroid strike, including up to a few years ago. With various suggestions for the cause such as changes to dominant plants into types dinosaurs were having difficult eating and possibility of scavenging of their eggs on large scale by small mammals.
Would be interested if you can post a source on modern idea please Steffen.
Hi, no research in the normal way (as in "lets look for resupplying the 3rd army in the sector X for the time of 1.1.1916 to 1.10.1916"), but in the more passive way (by modern documentations (mostly in german on ARTE or ZDF-info)... in these they debunked the myth of the die-out of ALL dinosaurs, as some suggested because they found less fossiles in the timespan 70-65mio years before the impact. Instead they found more and more new kinds of dinosaurs. But yes, the number of DIFFERENT branches of dinosaurs was reduced. in these TV-documentations they explained why this was true - the climate changes - also by heavy volcanic activities - reduced the older kinds of dinosaurs a bit. But - the carnivors went smarter and smarter, the herbivores were more able to find food in a greater scale of plants... Also the idea - as often mentioned in these "die-out"-scenarios are sind around 2000 gone - because they found full feather dinosaur predators in china, allready in 120mio years before christ in china. I have forgotten the name of these "new" canivors, but science has pushed massivly in the last 2 decades. For example they now know that - at last the younger - T-rex were full feathered too... And that doesn´t answer how the sea animals (like the very large predators) would have died out. Nah - it needed the impact and the die-out of all animals that had a weight larger 10 or 20kg (i have forgotten if they wrote pound or Kilo) that dinosaurs were extingished. The living conditions changed - but the dinosaurs changed with them. Esp the raptors got smarter and smarter... If i find the title of some of these (modern) documentations, i can give em... by the way, dinosaurs aren´t extingished... they live Turkey and other birds....
Thanks Steffen
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 29, 2018 8:34:50 GMT
Hi, no research in the normal way (as in "lets look for resupplying the 3rd army in the sector X for the time of 1.1.1916 to 1.10.1916"), but in the more passive way (by modern documentations (mostly in german on ARTE or ZDF-info)... in these they debunked the myth of the die-out of ALL dinosaurs, as some suggested because they found less fossiles in the timespan 70-65mio years before the impact. Instead they found more and more new kinds of dinosaurs. But yes, the number of DIFFERENT branches of dinosaurs was reduced. in these TV-documentations they explained why this was true - the climate changes - also by heavy volcanic activities - reduced the older kinds of dinosaurs a bit. But - the carnivors went smarter and smarter, the herbivores were more able to find food in a greater scale of plants... Also the idea - as often mentioned in these "die-out"-scenarios are sind around 2000 gone - because they found full feather dinosaur predators in china, allready in 120mio years before christ in china. I have forgotten the name of these "new" canivors, but science has pushed massivly in the last 2 decades. For example they now know that - at last the younger - T-rex were full feathered too... And that doesn´t answer how the sea animals (like the very large predators) would have died out. Nah - it needed the impact and the die-out of all animals that had a weight larger 10 or 20kg (i have forgotten if they wrote pound or Kilo) that dinosaurs were extingished. The living conditions changed - but the dinosaurs changed with them. Esp the raptors got smarter and smarter... If i find the title of some of these (modern) documentations, i can give em... by the way, dinosaurs aren´t extingished... they live Turkey and other birds....
Thanks Steffen
No problem... some (scientists) seem to fear that their knowledge is less worth (because they specialized in post-KC-line-development) so they tried to reduce the impact effect to a minor thing, they also are the ones who do not want to accept the facts that a.) some(many?) dinosaurs were no cold blooded slow animals but high efficent-birdlike-breathing (superior to our breathing system - my english isn´t good enough to explain the differences) super-animals b.) birds are dinosaurs (more or less -65million years helped to improve em to their modern kind). We now that many birds (Keas from australia) are very intelligent, some claim (not me - i lack the possibilities to judge that) that they are more intelligent as dolphines and monkeys. Just because we eat em (okay, dolphins are eaten in tuna, too ) that doesn´t mean they are not smart - pigs for example are vastly superior in thinking compared to "dumb" dogs. Maybe the chinese are smarter then we western europeans, eating dogs and cats (the second i am strictly against - beeing a "cat-person") One species that is highly efficent is the shark. They were here before the dinosaurs, they survived the KC-event and they will be here - if not extingished by the only mega-predator (humans) if we will be extingished in a few ten thousend years. The thing about scientists and their "knowledge" - megalodon - so their theory - had died out 7 million years ago. Then they found the evidence about one of these sharks that lived 7 (or 4?) thousend years ago. Maybe some have survived? The oceans are big, damned big ones.. Or take the tassel flosser (german quastenflossler, latinCoelacanthimorpha, Actinistia) they claimed it died out 65million years ago, but - so sorry - they still live. Ha! what a shame... thank you Miss Marjorie Courtenay-Latimer! |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 29, 2018 10:28:47 GMT
Steffen
As I say a bit out to touch but think its fairly widely accepted nowadays that many dinosaurs were warm blooded and pretty universally that birds are closely related to dinosaurs. Know the former was being suggested back in the early 70's and seen it repeated often since.
Steve
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 29, 2018 19:25:55 GMT
Steffen As I say a bit out to touch but think its fairly widely accepted nowadays that many dinosaurs were warm blooded and pretty universally that birds are closely related to dinosaurs. Know the former was being suggested back in the early 70's and seen it repeated often since. Steve Hi, well - there is a - surprising large - group of people who decline the "warm-blooded" part. Just follow the intense discussions about T-Rex... some urgently want him to be no predator, because - well propably because he is so well known and "loved" by the most fans of dinosaurs. But these intelligent people ignore that every predator is also a scavanger.... every single predator will eat also dead animals The bird-stuff is also not accepted generally by all scientists. Even the modern research (from 1990-2015) that make clear that they are the ancestors aren´t accepted yet. The problem is - books written in 1990 - with the then newest input are now "outdated" - having two younger sons i bought different books - some from pre1990, some written around 2000 and some very new. They are VERY different, about many things we think are clear and well known. It is interesting that this science is "on the move" in the moment, much more as in the time from say 1900-1980. But i am only a consument of these informations... so maybe tomorrow they bring "evidence" that this or that is wrong they had found out recently... |
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jul 1, 2018 21:42:15 GMT
Looking at the theory of big die outs then, did they not happen before the K-Pg impact too?
I like the theory that the carnivores get smaller and faster, especially if they continue to do so, how soon to we end up with 100kg/220lb pack hunting raptors with tools?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 2, 2018 14:16:30 GMT
Looking at the theory of big die outs then, did they not happen before the K-Pg impact too? I like the theory that the carnivores get smaller and faster, especially if they continue to do so, how soon to we end up with 100kg/220lb pack hunting raptors with tools?
If you mean earlier mass extinctions yes there were earlier ones, some even more devastating.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jul 2, 2018 20:17:45 GMT
Looking at the theory of big die outs then, did they not happen before the K-Pg impact too? I like the theory that the carnivores get smaller and faster, especially if they continue to do so, how soon to we end up with 100kg/220lb pack hunting raptors with tools?
If you mean earlier mass extinctions yes there were earlier ones, some even more devastating.
At the turn between the perm to jurrassic time the mass exitnctions were much worser as the 65mio-impact. In that around 95% of all land animals and 90% of all sea based animals died. 65mio years it was 70 and 65%... It was this mass extinction that caused the raise of the dinosaurs, just like the raise of the mamals was caused by the K-impact. No such event mean the mamals are still living in a nice, not developing so many superpredators and superanimals... |
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Turkey and other birds....