jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 5, 2018 14:15:55 GMT
Let's say in an alternate reality the fusion/fission processes necessary for making a nuclear bomb are simply impossible to artificially manufacture. This means no nukes exist.
How could things go different? Would a Cold War ensue, in a world were nuclear annihilation doesn't exist? Would the US become the superpower it is today?
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jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 5, 2018 14:38:21 GMT
I can see a few things right off the bat:
-Operation Downfall: The Allied invasion of Japan through conventional means. With no nuclear bombs to turn Hiroshima and Nagasaki into radioactive dust pits, the Allies would be forced to invade the Japanese mainland in early November. Mustering the single-largest Allied force ever created and the largest landing in warfare history, 6,000,000 American, British, French and Commonwealth troops would plow through an infernal nightmare unlike anything viewed by man. Over 35.8 million fanatic Japanese defending every inch of their country down to the last man, in suicidal attacks and displays of violence that would question each soldier's own humanity. The Soviets would later join the Allies by invading the north, possibly creating a Communist north and Capitalist south similar to what happened in Korea.
-Conventional Stand-off: The prospect of a world-ending conflict becomes far too impossible. The very threat of nuclear bombs exterminating all Earth-borne life within minutes no longer exists, meaning superpowers would rely on conventional warfare for staying at par with their opponents, rather than mass-manufacture of nukes. The US and USSR would engage in a fairly-comical Tom-and-Jerry-style battle for outmatching each other militarily, developing new warfare technologies and essentially booby-trapping the most possible invasion routes in case that an unwarned attack comes. The US initiates a massive upgrading of its military, setting course to replace its old WWII-era stack with a modern arsenal, including jets, rockets, massive carriers and better tanks. Both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries do the same. Neither the Soviets nor the Americans really wished to engage in conventional war, staving off conflict regardless of propagandistic efforts to paint the enemy in an evil light.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 5, 2018 14:49:21 GMT
HI,
with no Nuclear weapons you will see biological and chemical weapons used and pushed to a "better" end...
the western allies could start with japan late war - IF their casulties would be to high. But personally i don´t see this happen.
The conventional mass destructive weapons (basically 10.000s of heavy 4-8engine bombers able to drop 30-40ts of bombs) will be pushed, also defence of these gigantic bomber fleets.
The "last line of defence" could be biological "killers", something along the Stephen King "the last stand" weapon... this reduce the costs for conventional weapons, because you could threat your enemy to extingiush ALL humans if they thread your existence....
outside of this you see more engagements with more deads at the "hot zones"... in africa, southeast asia... Not in europe - here you have way to many conventional weapons for...
something that could work is "hammer head"-projectiles from the space... if you use say 1000 1ts-projectiles, that move with 40-50km/s you could be as effective as with nuclear weapons...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 5, 2018 22:04:38 GMT
I can see a few things right off the bat: -Operation Downfall: The Allied invasion of Japan through conventional means. With no nuclear bombs to turn Hiroshima and Nagasaki into radioactive dust pits, the Allies would be forced to invade the Japanese mainland in early November. Mustering the single-largest Allied force ever created and the largest landing in warfare history, 6,000,000 American, British, French and Commonwealth troops would plow through an infernal nightmare unlike anything viewed by man. Over 35.8 million fanatic Japanese defending every inch of their country down to the last man, in suicidal attacks and displays of violence that would question each soldier's own humanity. The Soviets would later join the Allies by invading the north, possibly creating a Communist north and Capitalist south similar to what happened in Korea. -Conventional Stand-off: The prospect of a world-ending conflict becomes far too impossible. The very threat of nuclear bombs exterminating all Earth-borne life within minutes no longer exists, meaning superpowers would rely on conventional warfare for staying at par with their opponents, rather than mass-manufacture of nukes. The US and USSR would engage in a fairly-comical Tom-and-Jerry-style battle for outmatching each other militarily, developing new warfare technologies and essentially booby-trapping the most possible invasion routes in case that an unwarned attack comes. The US initiates a massive upgrading of its military, setting course to replace its old WWII-era stack with a modern arsenal, including jets, rockets, massive carriers and better tanks. Both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries do the same. Neither the Soviets nor the Americans really wished to engage in conventional war, staving off conflict regardless of propagandistic efforts to paint the enemy in an evil light.
Downfall probably won't be necessary. Japan was in dire straits without the nuclear attacks, with most of their cities leveled by the fire-bomb attacks, the blockade causing massive shortages and then the Soviet invasion smashing their forces in Manchuria and advancing into Korea. Especially given the fear and loathing of communism that the Japanese military had this was seen as a far worse threat than an American invasion.
You are still likely to get the hard liners opposing any peace moves and things will move a bit slower but I suspect at the most the Japanese surrender would probably be delayed by a few weeks at most and likely that even the initial invasion of the southern island would not occur before the surrender came. In this case you might see Korea united under the Kin dynasty as the Soviets would probably secure the entire peninsula but possibly other changes would be relatively minor.
Its likely that at some time in the next 50 years a WWIII would have occurred and it would be very bloody, with massive uses of air power and chemical weapons as well as very large conventional forces. It might even be triggered by some regional confrontation, such as OTL Korean conflict which without nuclear weapons both sides would escalate to avoid defeat. Probably a western victory in the end but most of Europe would probably be trashed again and quite possibly many other regions. After that difficult to say what might happen.
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jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 5, 2018 23:38:37 GMT
I can see a few things right off the bat: -Operation Downfall: The Allied invasion of Japan through conventional means. With no nuclear bombs to turn Hiroshima and Nagasaki into radioactive dust pits, the Allies would be forced to invade the Japanese mainland in early November. Mustering the single-largest Allied force ever created and the largest landing in warfare history, 6,000,000 American, British, French and Commonwealth troops would plow through an infernal nightmare unlike anything viewed by man. Over 35.8 million fanatic Japanese defending every inch of their country down to the last man, in suicidal attacks and displays of violence that would question each soldier's own humanity. The Soviets would later join the Allies by invading the north, possibly creating a Communist north and Capitalist south similar to what happened in Korea. -Conventional Stand-off: The prospect of a world-ending conflict becomes far too impossible. The very threat of nuclear bombs exterminating all Earth-borne life within minutes no longer exists, meaning superpowers would rely on conventional warfare for staying at par with their opponents, rather than mass-manufacture of nukes. The US and USSR would engage in a fairly-comical Tom-and-Jerry-style battle for outmatching each other militarily, developing new warfare technologies and essentially booby-trapping the most possible invasion routes in case that an unwarned attack comes. The US initiates a massive upgrading of its military, setting course to replace its old WWII-era stack with a modern arsenal, including jets, rockets, massive carriers and better tanks. Both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries do the same. Neither the Soviets nor the Americans really wished to engage in conventional war, staving off conflict regardless of propagandistic efforts to paint the enemy in an evil light.
Downfall probably won't be necessary. Japan was in dire straits without the nuclear attacks, with most of their cities leveled by the fire-bomb attacks, the blockade causing massive shortages and then the Soviet invasion smashing their forces in Manchuria and advancing into Korea. Especially given the fear and loathing of communism that the Japanese military had this was seen as a far worse threat than an American invasion.
You are still likely to get the hard liners opposing any peace moves and things will move a bit slower but I suspect at the most the Japanese surrender would probably be delayed by a few weeks at most and likely that even the initial invasion of the southern island would not occur before the surrender came. In this case you might see Korea united under the Kin dynasty as the Soviets would probably secure the entire peninsula but possibly other changes would be relatively minor.
Its likely that at some time in the next 50 years a WWIII would have occurred and it would be very bloody, with massive uses of air power and chemical weapons as well as very large conventional forces. It might even be triggered by some regional confrontation, such as OTL Korean conflict which without nuclear weapons both sides would escalate to avoid defeat. Probably a western victory in the end but most of Europe would probably be trashed again and quite possibly many other regions. After that difficult to say what might happen.
Meh, Hirohito is suicidal. Period. Whichever way it happened, Japan isn't budging that easily (unless, y'know, she's faced with economic collapse).
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jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 5, 2018 23:40:26 GMT
Any thoughts on WWIII, though?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 23:59:12 GMT
You might see some more regional "big wars" that will happen because the risk of a nuclear exchange occurring isn't there to stop wars from getting too big.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 6, 2018 3:35:49 GMT
You might see some more regional "big wars" that will happen because the risk of a nuclear exchange occurring isn't there to stop wars from getting too big. Wich result in countries deciding to keep much larger armies than they had previous, also more chemical and biologic weapons development.
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jasonsnow
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Post by jasonsnow on Jun 6, 2018 15:04:01 GMT
There would be great violations of the chemical weapons ban, so much so that the UN might be forced to lift the ban. The US would begin experimenting with chemical missiles, loaded with ricin and nerve agents.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 6, 2018 15:08:09 GMT
There would be great violations of the chemical weapons ban, so much so that the UN might be forced to lift the ban. The US would begin experimenting with chemical missiles, loaded with ricin and nerve agents. As would the Soviets and anybody else i can assume, put them on rockets (if that is a handy deliverance system) and you do not need nukes.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jun 7, 2018 6:36:34 GMT
Chemical weapons aren't nearly as effective as nukes are, which means that one of the few real limits to the arms race is gone. This will mean a poorer world because in the end, large armies are far more expensive to maintain than nukes, and it's far harder to say that you have enough. If no war breaks out, this could lead to an earlier USSR collapse.
Of course, a purely conventional deterrent also is much less effective. No matter what happens, the heartlands of both sides won't be reduced to rubble very easily. Conventional missiles don't do enough damage and bombing raids aren't much fun at very large distances when your enemy has serious air defenses. This can make it a lot easier to start a war. They aren't at a major risk along with their civilians. The ones who will die are soldiers and the populations of allied countries.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 8, 2018 16:26:46 GMT
You might see some more regional "big wars" that will happen because the risk of a nuclear exchange occurring isn't there to stop wars from getting too big. Wich result in countries deciding to keep much larger armies than they had previous, also more chemical and biologic weapons development. Yes, a LOT more armed forces in many countries... even if the OTL Cold-War-fronts exist (Nato versus WP), you need much more continental weapons and armed forces in the countries along the iron curtain as OTL. OTL they knew, if "they" (meant are the "hostile other side") break trough we (the good ones) use nukes. Here you lack these ultimate weapons... so better safe then sorry. Compared to OTL the WP will have maybe 50% more combat forces in the "border zone", the Nato will have 300-600% more forces. OTL they were quite thin, because they thought "we have time for the other Nato-Forces ("hello USA") to move them to europe". Here - that would be to late. India and Pakistan would fight more often, China could or could not face chemical weapons against its troops used by the US-armed forces in Korea. Maybe even against chinese cities... like Shanghai. Ironically the world would be not as safe as OTL, but only because nobody ever used the "button". Otherwise we couldn´t write here
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 8, 2018 16:46:48 GMT
Wich result in countries deciding to keep much larger armies than they had previous, also more chemical and biologic weapons development. Yes, a LOT more armed forces in many countries... even if the OTL Cold-War-fronts exist (Nato versus WP), you need much more continental weapons and armed forces in the countries along the iron curtain as OTL. OTL they knew, if "they" (meant are the "hostile other side") break trough we (the good ones) use nukes. Here you lack these ultimate weapons... so better safe then sorry. Compared to OTL the WP will have maybe 50% more combat forces in the "border zone", the Nato will have 300-600% more forces. OTL they were quite thin, because they thought "we have time for the other Nato-Forces ("hello USA") to move them to europe". Here - that would be to late. India and Pakistan would fight more often, China could or could not face chemical weapons against its troops used by the US-armed forces in Korea. Maybe even against chinese cities... like Shanghai. Ironically the world would be not as safe as OTL, but only because nobody ever used the "button". Otherwise we couldn´t write here Also we will see countries like the United States, United Kingdom,Soviet Union, China, France and others keep large amount of long range heavy bombers like what they used during World War II to level cities with.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Jun 8, 2018 16:58:10 GMT
Yes, a LOT more armed forces in many countries... even if the OTL Cold-War-fronts exist (Nato versus WP), you need much more continental weapons and armed forces in the countries along the iron curtain as OTL. OTL they knew, if "they" (meant are the "hostile other side") break trough we (the good ones) use nukes. Here you lack these ultimate weapons... so better safe then sorry. Compared to OTL the WP will have maybe 50% more combat forces in the "border zone", the Nato will have 300-600% more forces. OTL they were quite thin, because they thought "we have time for the other Nato-Forces ("hello USA") to move them to europe". Here - that would be to late. India and Pakistan would fight more often, China could or could not face chemical weapons against its troops used by the US-armed forces in Korea. Maybe even against chinese cities... like Shanghai. Ironically the world would be not as safe as OTL, but only because nobody ever used the "button". Otherwise we couldn´t write here Also we will see countries like the United States, United Kingdom,Soviet Union, China, France and others keep large amount of long range heavy bombers like what they used during World War II to level cities with. Absolutly.... i wrote earlier that 10.000s of such monsterbombers exist, able to drop 50-100k tonnage of explosives to wipe out on the conventional way enemy cities. But not only the big 5, also smaller states will either have them or will support them. The Nato would still try to frighten the WP from attack, so the dutch, danes, germans, italians and others would have 1000-10.000 bombers each, either in their own arsenal or paying for that by some larger state (e.g. USA). With nukes things are much cheaper, if you don´t overdo it - like OTL.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 8, 2018 17:01:34 GMT
Also we will see countries like the United States, United Kingdom,Soviet Union, China, France and others keep large amount of long range heavy bombers like what they used during World War II to level cities with. Absolutly.... i wrote earlier that 10.000s of such monsterbombers exist, able to drop 50-100k tonnage of explosives to wipe out on the conventional way enemy cities. But not only the big 5, also smaller states will either have them or will support them. The Nato would still try to frighten the WP from attack, so the dutch, danes, germans, italians and others would have 1000-10.000 bombers each, either in their own arsenal or paying for that by some larger state (e.g. USA). With nukes things are much cheaper, if you don´t overdo it - like OTL. Do not think the smaller countries will be able to afford such a huge numbers in bombers.
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