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Post by eurowatch on May 21, 2018 19:01:47 GMT
Most are going to run into trouble on that front considering their countries either don't exsist, can't be traveled to or possible don't want them. And even then there is the very likely possibility they won't be believed ("a country arrived from four hundred years in the future? Go take a dump, lad and come back when you are sober!" That is true, i wonder how the Irish embassy will react to see the English in control of their country and so one. Ask the Netherlands to launch the Glorious Revolution fourty years Ahead of Schedule and failing that, start the IRA? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 21, 2018 19:08:02 GMT
That is true, i wonder how the Irish embassy will react to see the English in control of their country and so one. Ask the Netherlands to launch the Glorious Revolution fourty years Ahead of Schedule and failing that, start the IRA? I do not think the Netherlands is in the business of supporting any terrorist organization. |
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Post by eurowatch on May 21, 2018 19:15:30 GMT
Ask the Netherlands to launch the Glorious Revolution fourty years Ahead of Schedule and failing that, start the IRA? I do not think the Netherlands is in the business of supporting any terrorist organization. The Hague isn't, but the new Irish government might become one if it deems it necassery to secure Irish Independence. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 21, 2018 19:19:09 GMT
I do not think the Netherlands is in the business of supporting any terrorist organization. The Hague isn't, but the new Irish government might become one if it deems it necassery to secure Irish Independence. You mean the Irish embassy in Den Hauge, i think they should act carefully, i doubt the Netherlands will be happy if they find out that the Irish embassy is supporting IRA kind of thing in 1621 Ireland, they might find that they will be left with nothing, as like all embassies, they need to pay gas,water, food and salaries to their workers, who is going to do that, the Netherlands government most likely will do that, as long as you do what they say i guess, |
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Post by eurowatch on May 21, 2018 19:24:43 GMT
The Hague isn't, but the new Irish government might become one if it deems it necassery to secure Irish Independence. You mean the Irish embassy in Den Hauge, i think they should act carefully, i doubt the Netherlands will be happy if they find out that the Irish embassy is supporting IRA kind of thing in 1621 Ireland, they might find that they will be left with nothing, as like all embassies, they need to pay gas,water, food and salaries to their workers, who is going to do that, the Netherlands government most likely will do that, as long as you do what they say i guess, They Will have to pay the Essentials With whatever Euros they have laying around and after that Source dries up at least some of the staff Will have to find employment elsewhere. |
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steffen
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Post by steffen on May 22, 2018 11:48:29 GMT
Suppose that The modern Netherlands of 2018 gets send back in time to 1621, right when the Twelve-year Truce ends and Spain restarts the war. Since this is obviously going to be a Dutch-wank my question is rather: How will The Netherlands look fifty years later? How will this impact the rest of Europe? Puh, lots of possibilities First:Modern netherlands is FULLY depending on world wide trade. This will not happen here. So the netherlands will struggle to survive (starving people). But i think the dutch could and would survive with only minor troubles. second: the world of 1621 is different to our modern world, so i have no clue how many modern dutch die by infections or illness they have no antibotica against... generally many (most) would survive. third: The people of 1621 are "incompatible" to the modern liberal dutch... even the most liberal free thinking people, esp. in NL have no problems with "burning some witches", something absolutly inacceptable for modern people. So you have the people of modern netherlands as an island in a brutal stupid world. so much so bad. Now the good things: The netherlands are vastly superior to anybody on this planet. Their army could defeat ALL other countries in the world together. So they have nothing to fear from military forces. I think the dutch will take out the european leaderships... some helicopters, some military forces and you can take hostages...that will help to calm down things.... but the dutch now know EXACTLY were the ressources of the modern world are... EVERY single one. I doubt they will slaughter natives, but i think they will move forces to it, take them and keep em. Replace the later british empire by the new dutch empire, modern, liberal. The rest of the world will be "hostile", either by religious ideas or by the brute force these dutch have. A problem for the dutch is their hunger for energy... but with radical methods they would survive and then - say 20 years later will have established strong points around the world and in europe. Basically they take the ruhr-area at first, then the belgian and alsac ressources, the silesian and east german brown coal depots... build railroads to them and start moving stuff. The local princes get contracts, money and are forced to accept the rule of the dutch (these would be a.) no death sentence b.) man and woman are equal c.) democratic elements d.) all people learn to read and write e.) more and more modern sanitar elements in cities are included 50 years later you have a more or less european state, ruled by the dutch, but not in a totalitar way, a modern army that could keep radicals down or - in case of osman invasions (or rebellions in the deserts of the oil heavy areas) away. 100 years later the world is far ahead of 1721 OTL, basically in europe you have reached the 1921-level, but again heavily influenced by the dutch liberal society... gays and lesbians will propably live open and without fear to get killed, totalitar religious regimes are crushed, in the "american colonies" some settlers live more or less together with the natives, who get medicine help - so no mass dying of eastern indians in the americas. No slave trade to america.... worldwide lots of "settlers colonies" with ressource rich areas included, so the dutch state (that could include belgium, the ruhr area and other zones of modern germany) has full controll about the energy and world trade. That makes em very rich, but they use this wealth to build up modern civilisation without brutal force. THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". |
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Post by eurowatch on May 22, 2018 13:39:34 GMT
Suppose that The modern Netherlands of 2018 gets send back in time to 1621, right when the Twelve-year Truce ends and Spain restarts the war. Since this is obviously going to be a Dutch-wank my question is rather: How will The Netherlands look fifty years later? How will this impact the rest of Europe? Puh, lots of possibilities First:Modern netherlands is FULLY depending on world wide trade. This will not happen here. So the netherlands will struggle to survive (starving people). But i think the dutch could and would survive with only minor troubles. second: the world of 1621 is different to our modern world, so i have no clue how many modern dutch die by infections or illness they have no antibotica against... generally many (most) would survive. third: The people of 1621 are "incompatible" to the modern liberal dutch... even the most liberal free thinking people, esp. in NL have no problems with "burning some witches", something absolutly inacceptable for modern people. So you have the people of modern netherlands as an island in a brutal stupid world. so much so bad. Now the good things: The netherlands are vastly superior to anybody on this planet. Their army could defeat ALL other countries in the world together. So they have nothing to fear from military forces. I think the dutch will take out the european leaderships... some helicopters, some military forces and you can take hostages...that will help to calm down things.... but the dutch now know EXACTLY were the ressources of the modern world are... EVERY single one. I doubt they will slaughter natives, but i think they will move forces to it, take them and keep em. Replace the later british empire by the new dutch empire, modern, liberal. The rest of the world will be "hostile", either by religious ideas or by the brute force these dutch have. A problem for the dutch is their hunger for energy... but with radical methods they would survive and then - say 20 years later will have established strong points around the world and in europe. Basically they take the ruhr-area at first, then the belgian and alsac ressources, the silesian and east german brown coal depots... build railroads to them and start moving stuff. The local princes get contracts, money and are forced to accept the rule of the dutch (these would be a.) no death sentence b.) man and woman are equal c.) democratic elements d.) all people learn to read and write e.) more and more modern sanitar elements in cities are included 50 years later you have a more or less european state, ruled by the dutch, but not in a totalitar way, a modern army that could keep radicals down or - in case of osman invasions (or rebellions in the deserts of the oil heavy areas) away. 100 years later the world is far ahead of 1721 OTL, basically in europe you have reached the 1921-level, but again heavily influenced by the dutch liberal society... gays and lesbians will propably live open and without fear to get killed, totalitar religious regimes are crushed, in the "american colonies" some settlers live more or less together with the natives, who get medicine help - so no mass dying of eastern indians in the americas. No slave trade to america.... worldwide lots of "settlers colonies" with ressource rich areas included, so the dutch state (that could include belgium, the ruhr area and other zones of modern germany) has full controll about the energy and world trade. That makes em very rich, but they use this wealth to build up modern civilisation without brutal force. THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. There is also the issue of going around conquering places. While The Hague would relectunantly take Control of the colonies it inherits or liberates from Spain and the Southern Netherlands would be pretty much forced upon them, deliberatly going into the HRE to conquer new provinces would be a much harder Thing to sell to the general populace. "We are a peace-loving country, now lets go conquer Keulen." |
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steffen
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Post by steffen on May 22, 2018 15:16:33 GMT
Puh, lots of possibilities First:Modern netherlands is FULLY depending on world wide trade. This will not happen here. So the netherlands will struggle to survive (starving people). But i think the dutch could and would survive with only minor troubles. second: the world of 1621 is different to our modern world, so i have no clue how many modern dutch die by infections or illness they have no antibotica against... generally many (most) would survive. third: The people of 1621 are "incompatible" to the modern liberal dutch... even the most liberal free thinking people, esp. in NL have no problems with "burning some witches", something absolutly inacceptable for modern people. So you have the people of modern netherlands as an island in a brutal stupid world. so much so bad. Now the good things: The netherlands are vastly superior to anybody on this planet. Their army could defeat ALL other countries in the world together. So they have nothing to fear from military forces. I think the dutch will take out the european leaderships... some helicopters, some military forces and you can take hostages...that will help to calm down things.... but the dutch now know EXACTLY were the ressources of the modern world are... EVERY single one. I doubt they will slaughter natives, but i think they will move forces to it, take them and keep em. Replace the later british empire by the new dutch empire, modern, liberal. The rest of the world will be "hostile", either by religious ideas or by the brute force these dutch have. A problem for the dutch is their hunger for energy... but with radical methods they would survive and then - say 20 years later will have established strong points around the world and in europe. Basically they take the ruhr-area at first, then the belgian and alsac ressources, the silesian and east german brown coal depots... build railroads to them and start moving stuff. The local princes get contracts, money and are forced to accept the rule of the dutch (these would be a.) no death sentence b.) man and woman are equal c.) democratic elements d.) all people learn to read and write e.) more and more modern sanitar elements in cities are included 50 years later you have a more or less european state, ruled by the dutch, but not in a totalitar way, a modern army that could keep radicals down or - in case of osman invasions (or rebellions in the deserts of the oil heavy areas) away. 100 years later the world is far ahead of 1721 OTL, basically in europe you have reached the 1921-level, but again heavily influenced by the dutch liberal society... gays and lesbians will propably live open and without fear to get killed, totalitar religious regimes are crushed, in the "american colonies" some settlers live more or less together with the natives, who get medicine help - so no mass dying of eastern indians in the americas. No slave trade to america.... worldwide lots of "settlers colonies" with ressource rich areas included, so the dutch state (that could include belgium, the ruhr area and other zones of modern germany) has full controll about the energy and world trade. That makes em very rich, but they use this wealth to build up modern civilisation without brutal force. THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. There is also the issue of going around conquering places. While The Hague would relectunantly take Control of the colonies it inherits or liberates from Spain and the Southern Netherlands would be pretty much forced upon them, deliberatly going into the HRE to conquer new provinces would be a much harder Thing to sell to the general populace. "We are a peace-loving country, now lets go conquer Keulen." Well... .OTL netherlands is... this TL Netherlands face one big problem, lacking energy. All the food the dutch produce need LOTS of energy, energy this netherlands do not have. So they will take areas that could give em the needed materials, brown/black coal, oil, nuclear power ... natural gas, ... with the north american continent "free", the dutch will for sure take these ressources... they know about all the gold in alaska and california, all the texan oil. Modern netherlands are a trader state, but with their knowledge about the history of the world and who has what "needed" ressources they will push for them. One dutch tank battallion would defeat any army of 1621... but the dutch have little to no ressources... so they need these ressources. Next are luxembourg and the ruhr area, later silesia, eastern german brown coal energy... after that, oil from arabia, oil from texas and lousiana... basically drill a hole and it is here  The dutch yards still existing could build ships vastly superior to anything aflot... first small ships,. later bigger ones. The dutch need no allies, they will take what they want at will... nobody stops em. The calvinist areas will be more ready to get "improved", but they don´t need british or french rivals.,.. so kill these forces, take out vienna rulers and then deal with local rulers... you have so much to give, mostly ideas. Helis from the netherlands take out next rulers, bring em to "modern netherland", they obey your rule or die. After getting bases outside, take the next step. These funny british and french ships get sunk by easy methods... one helicopter drop some rude explosives from above... 2 helicopters kill the french fleet, 2 helicopters kill the british fleet. Take out the rulers, imprision them, take out military forces. People need to understand that 400 years of timeshift is so big, the dutch could and would rule the world. But not like brutal occupiers but by their idea of tolerance, equality and liberalism. Combed with modern technology... build crude diesel engines, use em to move ships (out of wood or steel, doesn´t matter) to bases full of ressources, explore em. If you teach native americans to use their ressources AND to give your idea of modern societies... In 1600 you have 545 million people around the world... 17 million dutch, all HIGHLY eductated compared to any other people on that planet in 1621 means you have basically more people in the netherlands as most neighbours toghether ! And they all are more eductated as the most eductated people outside your country! the elite in say france is less educated as any dutch of modern netherlands. To name an example. THe holy german empire plays into your cards...lots of incompetent rulers who could be manipulated. France and UK need hard lessons, the german areas are easier to rule. So - first solve the moving shock. second -remove the ruling class of UK, spain and france, also Austria. third.... send out small military forces to capture valuable areas with less resistance. highest interests are ruhr-valley, texas,,lousiana, california... (gold - to finance your long time interests) sink the spanish, french, british fleets... end the beginning 30year-war. QUickly. educate your direct small neithbours, bring em liberal ideas... (man and woman equal - most important) Build railways to your needed ressources, build up coal fired energy delivery... bridge the rhine-river establish "colonies" world wide... if they have ressources, you want em. Feed the european neighbours, teach em, send em home to spread your ideas. In 20 years (1640) you "own" or rule half of europe, build up 1900-style industries, but try to keep pollution in an acctepable level. if british, spanish or french try to fight you, terminate these resistance... kill enemy fleets... easy to do.. basically ONE dutch modern frigate kills all hostile fleets - together remove the leadership of ANY existing state - either kill em (best way) or imprison them... you are so alien to them, you cant use em. send your arabian speaking people into the islamic areas, to untermine em. Then, bring them to fall and take over the power vacuum. Again, 10 years later most areas are happy you help em and teach em... most people on the lower levels are happy if you show them to feed themselves...woman would be VERY interested to learn from you... at last as you reduce their dying rate by 100 - childbed-dying is massivly reduced by your medicine... later take out china.... oh, with only 600-800 million people on the planet EVERYONE could live in the same range as you do... basically you could build the perfect world, bring in by the dutch... 50 years later everyone speak dutch, and 90% of them have dropped silly racism, intolerance or stupid religious fighting... you bring wealth, education, medicine and - most important peace and liberty. Game over for silly austrian, spanish, britihs, french or osman dictators... |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 22, 2018 15:27:32 GMT
Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. There is also the issue of going around conquering places. While The Hague would relectunantly take Control of the colonies it inherits or liberates from Spain and the Southern Netherlands would be pretty much forced upon them, deliberatly going into the HRE to conquer new provinces would be a much harder Thing to sell to the general populace. "We are a peace-loving country, now lets go conquer Keulen." Well... .OTL netherlands is... this TL Netherlands face one big problem, lacking energy. All the food the dutch produce need LOTS of energy, energy this netherlands do not have. We have the Groningen gas field, the largest natural gas field in Europe and the tenth-largest in the world, so i think we have energy, of course there will be rationing for a while but we have energy. |
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steffen
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Post by steffen on May 22, 2018 17:33:54 GMT
Well... .OTL netherlands is... this TL Netherlands face one big problem, lacking energy. All the food the dutch produce need LOTS of energy, energy this netherlands do not have. We have the Groningen gas field, the largest natural gas field in Europe and the tenth-largest in the world, so i think we have energy, of course there will be rationing for a while but we have energy. Yes, the groningen gas field is useful. But if you think about the WHOLE energy consumption and this gas field, you lack energy.... so my idea was: this tl netherlands looks for iron ore and simple to gain energy... this is brown coal in germany and poland and the original coal deposts now depleted in the ruhr valley... so you have short transport paths and easy access. the dutch will be the best choiche in such ASB-timeline, similar modern germany, austria or switzerland. Highly civilisatied, no longer interests in "conquering" stuff... equal rights (okay, germany in 20 years maybe different because the womans no longer are visiable in the public ), also the green phase is still active. If you keep the population of the world below 1 billion, you could establish great economic and social wealth for most people. You need to kill/remove the lords, teach the commoners and - even if some pro-brit-wankers here get angry - remove the agressive leadership of certain states of that time (france, but more so uk). So i prefered to sink their fleets including their admirals... win-win-situation for you. In germany you have no problems, 100s of small states, remove the one moron leading them, teach the others and you also lack to much nationalism... i think this world could be a great place, the dutch liberalism is quite strong today. I would not like the radical femalism of sweden, germany of netherlands of 2018 seems to be a good place to spread around the world. France of 2018 i see problematic, best could be switzerland of 2018 but beside this, the choice is quite good. Could be a fun timeline to write... |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 22, 2018 22:06:03 GMT
Well... .OTL netherlands is... this TL Netherlands face one big problem, lacking energy. All the food the dutch produce need LOTS of energy, energy this netherlands do not have. We have the Groningen gas field, the largest natural gas field in Europe and the tenth-largest in the world, so i think we have energy, of course there will be rationing for a while but we have energy.
One question. Is the coastal zone brought back as well as that sometimes varies from TL to TL? If yes then as your assuming. If not there's even more gas as its been restocked, plus probably a good bit more fish as well but your lost the rigs and pipelines and have to rebuild them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 22, 2018 22:09:12 GMT
Puh, lots of possibilities First:Modern netherlands is FULLY depending on world wide trade. This will not happen here. So the netherlands will struggle to survive (starving people). But i think the dutch could and would survive with only minor troubles. second: the world of 1621 is different to our modern world, so i have no clue how many modern dutch die by infections or illness they have no antibotica against... generally many (most) would survive. third: The people of 1621 are "incompatible" to the modern liberal dutch... even the most liberal free thinking people, esp. in NL have no problems with "burning some witches", something absolutly inacceptable for modern people. So you have the people of modern netherlands as an island in a brutal stupid world. so much so bad. Now the good things: The netherlands are vastly superior to anybody on this planet. Their army could defeat ALL other countries in the world together. So they have nothing to fear from military forces. I think the dutch will take out the european leaderships... some helicopters, some military forces and you can take hostages...that will help to calm down things.... but the dutch now know EXACTLY were the ressources of the modern world are... EVERY single one. I doubt they will slaughter natives, but i think they will move forces to it, take them and keep em. Replace the later british empire by the new dutch empire, modern, liberal. The rest of the world will be "hostile", either by religious ideas or by the brute force these dutch have. A problem for the dutch is their hunger for energy... but with radical methods they would survive and then - say 20 years later will have established strong points around the world and in europe. Basically they take the ruhr-area at first, then the belgian and alsac ressources, the silesian and east german brown coal depots... build railroads to them and start moving stuff. The local princes get contracts, money and are forced to accept the rule of the dutch (these would be a.) no death sentence b.) man and woman are equal c.) democratic elements d.) all people learn to read and write e.) more and more modern sanitar elements in cities are included 50 years later you have a more or less european state, ruled by the dutch, but not in a totalitar way, a modern army that could keep radicals down or - in case of osman invasions (or rebellions in the deserts of the oil heavy areas) away. 100 years later the world is far ahead of 1721 OTL, basically in europe you have reached the 1921-level, but again heavily influenced by the dutch liberal society... gays and lesbians will propably live open and without fear to get killed, totalitar religious regimes are crushed, in the "american colonies" some settlers live more or less together with the natives, who get medicine help - so no mass dying of eastern indians in the americas. No slave trade to america.... worldwide lots of "settlers colonies" with ressource rich areas included, so the dutch state (that could include belgium, the ruhr area and other zones of modern germany) has full controll about the energy and world trade. That makes em very rich, but they use this wealth to build up modern civilisation without brutal force. THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. There is also the issue of going around conquering places. While The Hague would relectunantly take Control of the colonies it inherits or liberates from Spain and the Southern Netherlands would be pretty much forced upon them, deliberatly going into the HRE to conquer new provinces would be a much harder Thing to sell to the general populace. "We are a peace-loving country, now lets go conquer Keulen."
One question. How dependent is that agricultural surplus dependent on: a) Possible imports of say fertilizers, pesticides, tractors etc [or components for their production].
b) Possible climatic changes as this period was in the middle of the Little Ice Age so its probably going to be substantially colder and there might be a number of other changes which might upset things.
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Post by eurowatch on May 22, 2018 23:13:36 GMT
Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. There is also the issue of going around conquering places. While The Hague would relectunantly take Control of the colonies it inherits or liberates from Spain and the Southern Netherlands would be pretty much forced upon them, deliberatly going into the HRE to conquer new provinces would be a much harder Thing to sell to the general populace. "We are a peace-loving country, now lets go conquer Keulen."
One question. How dependent is that agricultural surplus dependent on: a) Possible imports of say fertilizers, pesticides, tractors etc [or components for their production].
b) Possible climatic changes as this period was in the middle of the Little Ice Age so its probably going to be substantially colder and there might be a number of other changes which might upset things.
a) I don't know. I do know that the agicultural sector is heavily mechanised, has a lot of greenhouses and that Dutch vegetables have a reputation among foreigners for being about 50% water. b) Given how the Netherlands is such a modern country I am certain all of the vegetables have bred to be more resistant to temprature swings. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 23, 2018 8:19:42 GMT
One question. How dependent is that agricultural surplus dependent on: a) Possible imports of say fertilizers, pesticides, tractors etc [or components for their production].
b) Possible climatic changes as this period was in the middle of the Little Ice Age so its probably going to be substantially colder and there might be a number of other changes which might upset things.
a) I don't know. I do know that the agicultural sector is heavily mechanised, has a lot of greenhouses and that Dutch vegetables have a reputation among foreigners for being about 50% water. b) Given how the Netherlands is such a modern country I am certain all of the vegetables have bred to be more resistant to temprature swings.
Not sure on b. A lot of modern crops, especially in the west, have been bred more for high yields and fast growth and a lot of genetic diversity has been lost in many crops. Plus, especially the last ~50 years the climate has gotten steadily warmer so resistance to cold isn't something that would been seen as a high priority. The fact so much is raised under glass could well help however.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 23, 2018 13:37:56 GMT
THt yould be an interesting story, full of "much better than OTL"-events... i think the dutch society of 2018 is one of the most liberal in the world, perfectly suited to build up a "better place then OTL". Starving People is not going to be a problem, the Netherlands is the world second largest exporter of foodstufs, behind only the United States. If anything it the agicultural sector is going to have the opposite problem, the market is now so saturated that many farmers are going to og out of busnisses. [/quote] I wonder, the prices of 2018 what we find normal must be for 1621 standers be huge. |
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