lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,975
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2018 5:05:21 GMT
In OTL there were plans by Franco to occupy Portugal: I remember listening on Tv years ago, that there were secret plans for the military governor of Azores to create a government in exile, in case Salazar could not escape such hypothetical invasion. That is interesting, the first time i ever heard of this.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Mar 25, 2018 10:55:34 GMT
Did Salazar know this? Because that isn't a good idea for an dictator: to have a shadow government without him ready and waiting elsewhere. They might just decide that 'hey, we don't need that guy in Lisbon' and have the infrastructure in-place to back that up.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,975
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2018 10:59:28 GMT
Did Salazar know this? Because that isn't a good idea for an dictator: to have a shadow government without him ready and waiting elsewhere. They might just decide that 'hey, we don't need that guy in Lisbon' and have the infrastructure in-place to back that up. Fascinating, this military governor of Azores is in the right position to become the next head of state of Portugal.
|
|
steffen
Ensign
Posts: 300
Likes: 18
|
Post by steffen on Mar 26, 2018 9:43:30 GMT
One thing to remember, Franco died "peacefully" in his old days because he did not support the nazis or italian facists.
THis wasn´t because he was a nice guy (he wasn´t) but because his country was broken, complete broken by the civil war.
So, either portugal start a war with spain (how?) or there is no war at all.
one thing about spain, it was fully dependend on food supply in that time. Basically Franco would starve 1/3 of his people to death if he start a war - and loose the american food relive spain got.
Really, you need some significant changes to the spanish civil war. Say, the war ends in 1937 with an easy victory, but this also means that a lot lessons from the war is not done for the german army, airforce... or the russians. This has consequences for the OTL ww2, huge consequences. Also italy is benefited if it is not spending so much money and ressources in this civil war.
If the war ends as OTL, you have no war with portugal from the spanish side. If you do it vicversa, say portugal attack spain, things are different. Portugal would propably loose the british support, so if the spanish - with german help crush portugal (easily) they are the attacked ones. For germany this mean bases at the atlantic free from british bombers, more air support for german subs and more ports to reach. This make the war for UK a bit harder, but i can´t see em supporting an attacking portugal against spain in the time from 1939-42. After this, well this could be and the butterflies would be immense, but it is no shortcut to victory. The path through portugal and spain is way to hard, the casulties worse and - if spain is attacked by the allies - again without need - the spanish people will fight hard against the invaders. The costs for the allies would be higher. Another bad thing, if portugal is mad and attacks between late39 and early 41 this could mean that the germans take out portugiese azores (or the spaniards do that)... this could bite the allies later, with no air bases here the allies have the need for more long range bombers, maybe more carrier task forces to close the gap.
But you need first the point why portugal attacks spain. Spain would not - with OTL till end of civil war in 39 attack portugal, never. Only if the nazis "win" the war, invade UK.. then they could - as a partner (who helped closing the mediterain) hope for portugies bounty. But that is ASB, cause with OTL build up, no sealion could happen.
|
|
archangel
Chief petty officer
Posts: 115
Likes: 69
|
Post by archangel on Mar 26, 2018 17:52:36 GMT
Did Salazar know this? Because that isn't a good idea for an dictator: to have a shadow government without him ready and waiting elsewhere. They might just decide that 'hey, we don't need that guy in Lisbon' and have the infrastructure in-place to back that up. Did Salazar know this? Because that isn't a good idea for an dictator: to have a shadow government without him ready and waiting elsewhere. They might just decide that 'hey, we don't need that guy in Lisbon' and have the infrastructure in-place to back that up. Fascinating, this military governor of Azores is in the right position to become the next head of state of Portugal. This is something I remember hearing in passage on TV many years ago, as a claim from someone related with said person, so I might be misremembering or the claim that person said could be inaccurate. But from Salazar's POV, if it was true, it would be an emergency measure, if he could not flee. Authority was centralised on Salazar, so this scenario would require the capture of Salazar. One thing to remember, Franco died "peacefully" in his old days because he did not support the nazis or italian facists. THis wasn´t because he was a nice guy (he wasn´t) but because his country was broken, complete broken by the civil war. So, either portugal start a war with spain (how?) or there is no war at all. one thing about spain, it was fully dependend on food supply in that time. Basically Franco would starve 1/3 of his people to death if he start a war - and loose the american food relive spain got. Really, you need some significant changes to the spanish civil war. Say, the war ends in 1937 with an easy victory, but this also means that a lot lessons from the war is not done for the german army, airforce... or the russians. This has consequences for the OTL ww2, huge consequences. Also italy is benefited if it is not spending so much money and ressources in this civil war. If the war ends as OTL, you have no war with portugal from the spanish side. If you do it vicversa, say portugal attack spain, things are different. Portugal would propably loose the british support, so if the spanish - with german help crush portugal (easily) they are the attacked ones. For germany this mean bases at the atlantic free from british bombers, more air support for german subs and more ports to reach. This make the war for UK a bit harder, but i can´t see em supporting an attacking portugal against spain in the time from 1939-42. After this, well this could be and the butterflies would be immense, but it is no shortcut to victory. The path through portugal and spain is way to hard, the casulties worse and - if spain is attacked by the allies - again without need - the spanish people will fight hard against the invaders. The costs for the allies would be higher. Another bad thing, if portugal is mad and attacks between late39 and early 41 this could mean that the germans take out portugiese azores (or the spaniards do that)... this could bite the allies later, with no air bases here the allies have the need for more long range bombers, maybe more carrier task forces to close the gap. But you need first the point why portugal attacks spain. Spain would not - with OTL till end of civil war in 39 attack portugal, never. Only if the nazis "win" the war, invade UK.. then they could - as a partner (who helped closing the mediterain) hope for portugies bounty. But that is ASB, cause with OTL build up, no sealion could happen. Salazar was an opportunist, but also extremely cautious (even more than Franco), and he would know that it would be infeasible to invade Spain during ww2.
|
|
steffen
Ensign
Posts: 300
Likes: 18
|
Post by steffen on Mar 26, 2018 19:26:03 GMT
Did Salazar know this? Because that isn't a good idea for an dictator: to have a shadow government without him ready and waiting elsewhere. They might just decide that 'hey, we don't need that guy in Lisbon' and have the infrastructure in-place to back that up. Fascinating, this military governor of Azores is in the right position to become the next head of state of Portugal. This is something I remember hearing in passage on TV many years ago, as a claim from someone related with said person, so I might be misremembering or the claim that person said could be inaccurate. But from Salazar's POV, if it was true, it would be an emergency measure, if he could not flee. Authority was centralised on Salazar, so this scenario would require the capture of Salazar. One thing to remember, Franco died "peacefully" in his old days because he did not support the nazis or italian facists. THis wasn´t because he was a nice guy (he wasn´t) but because his country was broken, complete broken by the civil war. So, either portugal start a war with spain (how?) or there is no war at all. one thing about spain, it was fully dependend on food supply in that time. Basically Franco would starve 1/3 of his people to death if he start a war - and loose the american food relive spain got. Really, you need some significant changes to the spanish civil war. Say, the war ends in 1937 with an easy victory, but this also means that a lot lessons from the war is not done for the german army, airforce... or the russians. This has consequences for the OTL ww2, huge consequences. Also italy is benefited if it is not spending so much money and ressources in this civil war. If the war ends as OTL, you have no war with portugal from the spanish side. If you do it vicversa, say portugal attack spain, things are different. Portugal would propably loose the british support, so if the spanish - with german help crush portugal (easily) they are the attacked ones. For germany this mean bases at the atlantic free from british bombers, more air support for german subs and more ports to reach. This make the war for UK a bit harder, but i can´t see em supporting an attacking portugal against spain in the time from 1939-42. After this, well this could be and the butterflies would be immense, but it is no shortcut to victory. The path through portugal and spain is way to hard, the casulties worse and - if spain is attacked by the allies - again without need - the spanish people will fight hard against the invaders. The costs for the allies would be higher. Another bad thing, if portugal is mad and attacks between late39 and early 41 this could mean that the germans take out portugiese azores (or the spaniards do that)... this could bite the allies later, with no air bases here the allies have the need for more long range bombers, maybe more carrier task forces to close the gap. But you need first the point why portugal attacks spain. Spain would not - with OTL till end of civil war in 39 attack portugal, never. Only if the nazis "win" the war, invade UK.. then they could - as a partner (who helped closing the mediterain) hope for portugies bounty. But that is ASB, cause with OTL build up, no sealion could happen. Salazar was an opportunist, but also extremely cautious (even more than Franco), and he would know that it would be infeasible to invade Spain during ww2. Hi, yes, me thinks too that Salazar wouldn´t do it. But even more so Franco, because his country was ruined by the civil war. So basically we have a plot with two cautious leaders/dictators, who would avoid war as much as possible if victory isn´t clear. For Franco this mean - if UK had surrendered or german forces advance into London (succsessfull Sealion, well, yes - ASB), for the portuguise that the allies had moved an army or two into portugal, ready to strike against spain.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 19:31:48 GMT
Hence, my initial question: how do we get this war?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,975
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 26, 2018 19:35:44 GMT
Hence, my initial question: how do we get this war? Having Portugal due what ever reason be at war with Germany and have Franco being afraid that the British might use Portugal as a staging erea for a invasion of his country.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 19:49:23 GMT
Hence, my initial question: how do we get this war? Having Portugal due what ever reason be at war with Germany and have Franco being afraid that the British might use Portugal as a staging erea for a invasion of his country. That is a good starting point, I think.
|
|
steffen
Ensign
Posts: 300
Likes: 18
|
Post by steffen on Mar 26, 2018 20:06:08 GMT
Hence, my initial question: how do we get this war? Having Portugal due what ever reason be at war with Germany and have Franco being afraid that the British might use Portugal as a staging erea for a invasion of his country. Well, portugal was neutral, really had a focus for that. In the same time in 1943 Salazar gave cover for british convoys and allowed US bombers to cut the route to africa. Later the Azores were used as an airbase for the allies, but still he was neutral. i really can´t see this changing. Only if allies troops enter portugal (for that you need to remove Salazar) the germans would react - by immense pressure onto Franco to stop this. Only if Spain (Franco) support a german assault on Gibraltar he would be in a war with UK. If he does this (why? - OTL he didn´t) he could later try to invade portugal. I just can´t see this happen as it cut off Spain from its urgently needed food supplies from the USA. Without you loose 1/3 of the spaniards by hunger. Germany could not feed the spanish people, even if they have the wish to do so. Maybe someone finds a more realistic plot in this?
|
|
archangel
Chief petty officer
Posts: 115
Likes: 69
|
Post by archangel on Mar 27, 2018 19:14:50 GMT
A replacement of Salazar by a successful rebellion from more liberal members of the opposition might increase the likelihood of Franco attacking Portugal.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Mar 27, 2018 20:52:35 GMT
A replacement of Salazar by a successful rebellion from more liberal members of the opposition might increase the likelihood of Franco attacking Portugal. Avenging Salazar by subsuming Portugal into Spain? Something like that from Franco? Therefore, a blatant act of international aggression and Portugal under clear attack. That seems to work.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,835
Likes: 13,224
|
Post by stevep on Mar 27, 2018 22:22:55 GMT
A replacement of Salazar by a successful rebellion from more liberal members of the opposition might increase the likelihood of Franco attacking Portugal. Avenging Salazar by subsuming Portugal into Spain? Something like that from Franco? Therefore, a blatant act of international aggression and Portugal under clear attack. That seems to work. It possible, perhaps with Hitler and Mussolini pushing him but Franco was highly reluctant to get involved directly in the wider war because of the state of the Spanish economy and the need for food especially from the US, which is likely to be cut off, either directly or by a British blockade if they took action against Portugal. Possibly the best bet is something that replaces Franco as Spanish leader by someone who's more an hard line fascist and not as clear sighted about how disastrous such a move might be for Spain.
|
|
James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
|
Post by James G on Mar 27, 2018 22:30:03 GMT
Avenging Salazar by subsuming Portugal into Spain? Something like that from Franco? Therefore, a blatant act of international aggression and Portugal under clear attack. That seems to work. It possible, perhaps with Hitler and Mussolini pushing him but Franco was highly reluctant to get involved directly in the wider war because of the state of the Spanish economy and the need for food especially from the US, which is likely to be cut off, either directly or by a British blockade if they took action against Portugal. Possibly the best bet is something that replaces Franco as Spanish leader by someone who's more an hard line fascist and not as clear sighted about how disastrous such a move might be for Spain. I think we are world-building here!
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 67,975
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Mar 28, 2018 3:16:32 GMT
It possible, perhaps with Hitler and Mussolini pushing him but Franco was highly reluctant to get involved directly in the wider war because of the state of the Spanish economy and the need for food especially from the US, which is likely to be cut off, either directly or by a British blockade if they took action against Portugal. Possibly the best bet is something that replaces Franco as Spanish leader by someone who's more an hard line fascist and not as clear sighted about how disastrous such a move might be for Spain. I think we are world-building here! Is that a bad thing because i do not know how we can get Spain to invade Portugal and become a major soccer superpower.
|
|