lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 25, 2019 18:19:11 GMT
lordroel , Sure. Since I'm a technical-minded guy, most of my questions about stories are technical ones. For example... Why are LAV losses so high? Given the sensor tech differences, Canadian LAV losses versus Panzer III and IV seem a bit high, and using a TOW is totally expensive overkill instead of just shooting them with the autocannon, as they can spot the Panzer a long, long way away, and kill it far sooner than the Panzer can kill them, both in range (as I mentioned with citations at the top of this thread page) and in speed of targeting. This is the armour data for a LAV III (used by Canada, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAV_III#Protection)Uh, guys, even if we go with the LOWER protection threshold mentioned, 14.5x114mm from 500 meters... www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Ammunition_Data14.5mm KPV: BS-41 AP-I has 52mm RHAe penetration with kinetic energy effects at 1500m. Meanwhile the 5cm KwK 38, the highest penetration gun found on German panzers, has APCBC (685m/s muzzle velocity, hence the inferior penetration) shells that pen 59mm at 500m, or 45mm at 1000m for vertical armour, which a LAV is NOT presenting. If we go by the protection needed to withstand Russian 2A42/2A72 30mm autocannons, those can pen 60mm at 1800m. It seems a LAV III should be almost as protected frontally as a Tiger (100mm vertical plate), which, by 1940-1941 standards, makes it incredibly powerful. It IS plausible that a 75mm HE shell could noticeably damage one, as sloped armour doesn't help HE effects, but destruction seems questionable. Given mobility, range and protection supremacy, the Canadians sure seem to be losing quite a number of LAVs... Hope the author updates soon and/or answers the technical problem. Perhaps the Germans are just waiting in ambush with engines and vehicle cold and hand-cranking the turrets. That could give them flanking shots which would easily pen and kill a LAV. stevep , This is... actually very plausible for the Canadian government. And it doesn't even have to be naivete. 10% of the population may be on the warpath, but even the Chinese-Canadians would agree to wrapping up the war in Europe first as Canada isn't exactly rich/powerful enough to easily fight two major wars at once. Besides, the fleet has to build up its logistics train (like how the USN had to abandon the Western Pacific due to logistics)! It seems that's likely the main bulk of the Canadian government's propaganda machine. Disagreement/dispute/question resolved, hurrah! First, thanks for the details guardian54 , second, i feel that you only came here to go after the author of this TL, if that is the case, please do not, this forum does not like it nor do. guardian54 I in all honesty ask if you just came here to cause trouble? Because it sure looks like it. You stated you only joined the site to 'correct' one member... or was it a 'call out' as you deemed it? This isn't ah.com, this isn't their Chat section where call outs to gain on message progressive points are the done thing. You have then moved to pulling threads out of another poster's story. I'd respectfully ask that you kindly stop. You know the rules James G, no backseat modding, you know how to contact me true PM if you have any issues and i will look into it. Also this is the last time i going to say it to everybody, lets stop the discussions about anything related to War Crimes in this thread, not saying it again, thank you. |
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Post by guardian54 on Aug 25, 2019 22:43:12 GMT
First, thanks for the details guardian54 , second, i feel that you only came here to go after the author of this TL, if that is the case, please do not, this forum does not like it nor do. Far from it sir. I will lay out my thought process below: I saw someone pitting modern autocannons up against early WWII armour, went "Dis gunna be gud", got my proverbial popcorn, and then... ...What do you mean you're concerned for supplies of TOW missiles? How many locomotives did you spend them on (helicopter raids at night OP, plz nerf)? I mean I can see using them if you really need to catastrophically kill a vehicle so it can't be removed from the road (such as the ambush mounted where the first and last vehicles were hit) but... *reads further*...Oh... why are you using them for 1940-vintage Panzers? ...Did I remember the penetration tables wrong or something? Because I used to play Armoured Warfare and I know Bushmasters chew through Type 69 MBT sides well enough (sans applique) as shown in the First Gulf War. And MBT sides are generally better protected than the front of early WWII tanks, Panzer IV began with a 30mm hull IIRC... From playing World of Tanks and being loled through the face plate more than a few too times with 105mm derp guns (HE-firing howitzers, with 53mm pen in the game) when playing a Panzer IV, I know a Panzer IV's turret front maxes out at 50mm (looking it up confirmed it wasn't a game balance thing because the Pz IV ends up laughably weak compared to the M4 Sherman in that game, both at Tier V) and historically it was only the hull front getting up-armoured over the models of Pz IV. Then I looked up the penetration numbers and mulled the data over a bit as I read through the fic... and when something along the lines of the Bushmasters being lacking vs Panzers was mentioned, I went "U WOT M8?", and basically raised my hand to say that this didn't seem right. After all unlike AH.com I can actually read all the fics here just fine without an account. So I wouldn't be arsed to register for anything less than "Uh, problem with your stomp-fic, sir, it's not as stompy as should realistically be." Later I got distracted by sidestory, as you know. I signed up because of an apparent math problem that no one else had seen fit to bring up (I did check the entire thread to see if the author had already addressed it... turns out no one mentioned it yet). |
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Post by redrobin65 on Aug 25, 2019 23:50:57 GMT
First, thanks for the details guardian54 , second, i feel that you only came here to go after the author of this TL, if that is the case, please do not, this forum does not like it nor do. Far from it sir. I will lay out my thought process below: I saw someone pitting modern autocannons up against early WWII armour, went "Dis gunna be gud", got my proverbial popcorn, and then... ...What do you mean you're concerned for supplies of TOW missiles? How many locomotives did you spend them on (helicopter raids at night OP, plz nerf)? I mean I can see using them if you really need to catastrophically kill a vehicle so it can't be removed from the road (such as the ambush mounted where the first and last vehicles were hit) but... *reads further*...Oh... why are you using them for 1940-vintage Panzers? ...Did I remember the penetration tables wrong or something? Because I used to play Armoured Warfare and I know Bushmasters chew through Type 69 MBT sides well enough (sans applique) as shown in the First Gulf War. And MBT sides are generally better protected than the front of early WWII tanks, Panzer IV began with a 30mm hull IIRC... From playing World of Tanks and being loled through the face plate more than a few too times with 105mm derp guns (HE-firing howitzers, with 53mm pen in the game) when playing a Panzer IV, I know a Panzer IV's turret front maxes out at 50mm (looking it up confirmed it wasn't a game balance thing because the Pz IV ends up laughably weak compared to the M4 Sherman in that game, both at Tier V) and historically it was only the hull front getting up-armoured over the models of Pz IV. Then I looked up the penetration numbers and mulled the data over a bit as I read through the fic... and when something along the lines of the Bushmasters being lacking vs Panzers was mentioned, I went "U WOT M8?", and basically raised my hand to say that this didn't seem right. After all unlike AH.com I can actually read all the fics here just fine without an account. So I wouldn't be arsed to register for anything less than "Uh, problem with your stomp-fic, sir, it's not as stompy as should realistically be." Later I got distracted by sidestory, as you know. I signed up because of an apparent math problem that no one else had seen fit to bring up (I did check the entire thread to see if the author had already addressed it... turns out no one mentioned it yet). My apologies for not answering sooner, I've been pretty busy this summer. As to the penetration of the Bushmaster vs Panzers along with LAV armour: checking through the AH.com version of this thread, those points had been raised a few times, but I must have forgotten to make the appropriate edits! The links you provided seem useful, so edits have been (and will continue to be) made. |
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Post by redrobin65 on Aug 25, 2019 23:53:08 GMT
Also, regarding the use of TOW missiles, though they are definitely overkill, they are still the main anti-tank weapon aside from the Carl Gustav that the Army uses. The TOWs were taken out of storage between 2015-2017 due to the growing tensions with Russia in Ukraine/Eastern Europe.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 26, 2019 10:04:45 GMT
Also, regarding the use of TOW missiles, though they are definitely overkill, they are still the main anti-tank weapon aside from the Carl Gustav that the Army uses. The TOWs were taken out of storage between 2015-2017 due to the growing tensions with Russia in Ukraine/Eastern Europe.
Might TOWs also possibly be useful for bunker busting and the like?
Hope being busy was having fun or just work rather than anything more problematic.
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Post by redrobin65 on Aug 27, 2019 9:44:58 GMT
Also, regarding the use of TOW missiles, though they are definitely overkill, they are still the main anti-tank weapon aside from the Carl Gustav that the Army uses. The TOWs were taken out of storage between 2015-2017 due to the growing tensions with Russia in Ukraine/Eastern Europe.
Might TOWs also possibly be useful for bunker busting and the like?
Hope being busy was having fun or just work rather than anything more problematic.
Yes, they are. I remember reading somewhere about US troops in Afghanistan using TOWs to clear out dug-in Taliban positions. Thankfully,it was mostly work. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Aug 27, 2019 11:22:57 GMT
Might TOWs also possibly be useful for bunker busting and the like?
Hope being busy was having fun or just work rather than anything more problematic.
Yes, they are. I remember reading somewhere about US troops in Afghanistan using TOWs to clear out dug-in Taliban positions. Thankfully,it was mostly work. I'm sure British troops in the Falklands used MILANs for bunker busting too in the absence of any Argentine tank threat. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 27, 2019 12:52:26 GMT
IIRC I 1st read about the possibility in a military book or article back in the 1980's about how such guided weapons could be used for taking out defensive positions and hence questioning the mene at the time that their introduction would boost the defence.
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Post by redrobin65 on Oct 1, 2019 15:24:58 GMT
 The frontlines on April 5th, 1941. I forgot the Dutch First Army, which is between Dortmund and Munster on occupation duties. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2019 15:29:19 GMT
 The frontlines on April 5th, 1941. I forgot the Dutch First Army, which is between Dortmund ad Munster on occupation duties. Good map redrobin65. |
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Post by James G on Oct 1, 2019 15:29:46 GMT
The frontlines on April 5th, 1941. I forgot the Dutch First Army, which is between Dortmund and Munster on occupation duties. Good map! That advance is pretty deep but it is still a long way to Berlin! |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 1, 2019 15:49:12 GMT
The frontlines on April 5th, 1941. I forgot the Dutch First Army, which is between Dortmund and Munster on occupation duties. Good map! That advance is pretty deep but it is still a long way to Berlin!
Good to see an update and a great map. Still a fair distance to Berlin but the defending forces are looking a bit thin, even without the fact their probably nowhere near full strength and the allies have markedly better equipment and organisation.
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Post by redrobin65 on Oct 2, 2019 2:26:51 GMT
April 4th, 1941, Outside Bad Oeynhausen, Germany
Sergeant Paul Grafel looked at his SS troopers who were hiding in a large ditch outside the town. Many were underfed and thin, but they were still upset about not fighting to the last in Bad Oeynhausen, like many thousands of Germans had done in dozens of locations all over the country.
Grafel peeked through his binoculars at the town, which had been taken by Canadian troops half an hour ago. The Germans recognized that the defence of Bad Oeynhausen was important, as it stood in front of the Weser River. Grafel wondered if the plan that his battalion had cooked up would work, but dismissed the negative thoughts.
Grafel turned to his fellow sergeant Muller, who had a watch. “Is it time yet?”
Muller squinted at his watch and nodded. “It should be any second now. I hope that the engineers do their job properly.”
Grafel frowned, thinking of the engineers who were much closer to the occupied town than the SS troops. “Well, I don’t see why they wouldn’t. We all have are our duty to the Fuhrer that we have to—”
The Sergeant was cut off by a massive explosion inside the town as mines and other explosives were detonated. Ironically, the blast killed more German civilians than Canadian soldiers.
The company commander, Captain Furin, stood up, waving his pistol. “Alright boys! No more running and no more cowardice! Come on! For the Fuhrer!”
All 83 men in the company stood up and charged the town, bayonets fixed. While they were met with scattered rifle fire on the edge of Bad Oeynhausen, resistance stiffened as the Germans pushed in.
Grafel and a few other men found themselves pinned down behind a stone fence by Canadian machine-gun fire.
“Let’s go, men! We won’t accomplish anything by hiding here!”
Grafel stood up and leapt over the fence. He took three steps before being shot multiple times, dying before he hit the ground.
The Bad Oeynhausen Incident saw the SS lose 78 men, along with 215 German civilians. 44 Canadians died in the explosion and the subsequent fighting. The battle didn’t do much to halt the Canadian advance, with troops capturing a bridge over the Weser later that afternoon. The fanatical fighting of the SS (along with their suicidal engineers) could not stop the Allies.
News of the explosion was spread by fleeing civilians and the Allied armies. Was it worth fighting for a government that was willing to blow up its own people in the name of stopping invaders?
April 6th-9th, 1941, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
The German Twenty-Ninth Army was a very new formation, being made up of the shattered remnants of the First and Second armies along with reinforcements from the Weser-Elbe Command. Led by General Johannes Blaskowitz, the 103,000 men of the Twenty-Ninth Army actually outnumbered the Canadian First Army (86,000) that they were facing.
The Canadians hadn’t faced large-scale resistance for a few days, only encountering isolated German regiments and brigades here and there. They were hoping to cut off a large portion of German units, which could potentially leave little between them and Berlin.
On April 6th, German units woke up to artillery and airstrikes. The Heer no longer had much artillery, so counter-battery fire was limited. The RCAF bombed German positions as well as supply lines.
If General Blaskowitz and his staff had hoped that their men would fight to the death and stop the Canadians, then they were to be disappointed. The first engagement of the day saw the 141st Infantry Division at Lugde collapse in less than half an hour as the Canadian 6th Armoured Division plowed straight through them. A similar situation played out at Warburg when the 95th Infantry Division proved just as brittle as other German formations.
The Germans were pushed back all day on the 6th and 7th, taking serious losses along the way. A poorly organized counterattack on the 7th near Northeim was defeated with laughable ease by the Canadians. Australian troops took Gottingen without a fight on the 8th.
Canadian troops in a wooded area near Hildesheim.
By now, many units in the Twenty-Ninth Army were demoralized and on the verge of mutiny. Many soldiers abandoned their posts (most of the 644th Rifle Regiment deserted en masse rather than fight). An awkward situation unfolded in Hildesheim on the 8th. When the German 359th Infantry Division was ordered to defend the town, many refused. The 359th was a new formation created in February. Despite its relative youth, it represented the current state of the Heer quite well; most of its personnel were young teenagers and old men, were underfed, understrength, and undersupplied. Moreover, they were disillusioned with the war; Hitler had promised grand victories to restore Germany’s honour, but how had that turned out?
The men of the 359th Division overpowered their officers and waited. When 1st Battalion, les Fusiliers du Saint Laurent arrived, they were greeted with white flags instead of gunfire. The small battalion from eastern Quebec found itself overwhelmed by thousands of prisoners, and called for military-police units to process them all.
General Blaskowitz realized that the situation was hopeless and began to contemplate surrender. His hand was forced when Canadian troops from The Royal Regina Rifles attacked Salzgitter, where his command post was located. Blaskowitz allowed his men to put up token resistance before finally surrendering on April 9th.
The Germans took serious casualties in the Battle of Westphalia, seeing 22,000 men killed, 26,000 wounded, and 55,000 taken prisoner. Canadian losses were 580 killed, 699 wounded, and 28 missing. An entire army was eliminated, and the road to Berlin was mostly open.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2019 3:11:47 GMT
and the road to Berlin was mostly open. That is good news, lets hoop the soviets do not get any ideas and decide to visit Germany. |
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2019 15:48:44 GMT
redrobin65 Well that was easier than I was expecting, apart from the stupid savagely of the SS. One of those armies defending what's left of the Reich has just about disintegrated which not only leaves a gap in the line but must have the German high command doubtful about the reliability of the other units. No doubt the Nazis will call for brutal discipline to punish 'traitors' but that could well further demoralise what's left of the German army.
Whether Stalin decides to backstab his 'ally' and 'join' the allies to try and secure his political position as well as grab more territory is a big question. In one way it might be good for the allies as presuming they reject such a move, it takes the decision of what to do about Stalin's occupation of eastern Poland, out of their hands. Can't remember if he's also grabbed territory from Romania as OTL but presume he has annexed the Baltic states and attacked Finland in the Winter war as OTL.
IIRC the allies have also liberated Denmark which means another threat the defenders have to consider. Not just an attack across the Kiel canal but the possibility of a landing on the Baltic coast somewhere. I suspect that no such attack is planned but the Germans won't know that.
Steve
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