lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 8, 2019 16:38:46 GMT
Another fine update redrobin65 . Would it be correct that most of those who serve in the 1st Free Danish Infantry Division would in OTL have served with the Danish Brigade in Sweden . I wonder if those formations might get access to any of the shiny toys the uptimers have brought with them, if you know what I mean?  I think with Canada being a producer of Colt Canada C7 it will not be a problem for them to produce large amount of them, do not know if any downtimer units field 2018 waopons. |
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pyeknu
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Post by pyeknu on May 13, 2019 18:39:04 GMT
I just had this weird idea for a side story: Having the German airships Graf Zeppelin (LZ-127) and Graf Zeppelin II (LZ-130) defect to the Allies. Now, IOTL, the two ships were scrapped in early 1940, but with the butterflies that would develop concerning the future Canada coming into the past, the chances were awfully good that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium in Berlin would be too distracted to worry about getting the scrap value of the aluminum in their hulls; given that the Soviets were supplying materials to the Nazis in this case, the need for Luftschiffbau Zeppelin under Dr. Hugo Eckener (who was fervently anti-Nazi) to have the airships demolished would probably drop. And when the RCAF drops the boom on the Luftwaffe in April, Hermann Göring and his staff would be too hard-pressed to defend the Reich to be distracted by such a minor issue.
Could you imagine the propaganda value of this sort of thing...?
Ideas?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 13, 2019 20:04:31 GMT
I just had this weird idea for a side story: Having the German airships Graf Zeppelin (LZ-127) and Graf Zeppelin II (LZ-130) defect to the Allies. Now, IOTL, the two ships were scrapped in early 1940, but with the butterflies that would develop concerning the future Canada coming into the past, the chances were awfully good that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium in Berlin would be too distracted to worry about getting the scrap value of the aluminum in their hulls; given that the Soviets were supplying materials to the Nazis in this case, the need for Luftschiffbau Zeppelin under Dr. Hugo Eckener (who was fervently anti-Nazi) to have the airships demolished would probably drop. And when the RCAF drops the boom on the Luftwaffe in April, Hermann Göring and his staff would be too hard-pressed to defend the Reich to be distracted by such a minor issue. Could you imagine the propaganda value of this sort of thing...? Ideas?
Sounds a bit unlikely but given the chaos that Nazi Germany was in has been greatly increased by events it could happen. Eckener would have to get enough of a crew he could trust and all the supplies and equipment plus avoid getting shot down by either side. However it would definitely be a big propaganda coup for the allies but how costly might it be for the families and associates of those who escape?
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pyeknu
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Post by pyeknu on May 13, 2019 21:44:35 GMT
Sounds a bit unlikely but given the chaos that Nazi Germany was in has been greatly increased by events it could happen. Eckener would have to get enough of a crew he could trust and all the supplies and equipment plus avoid getting shot down by either side. However it would definitely be a big propaganda coup for the allies but how costly might it be for the families and associates of those who escape?
Friedrichshafen, which is where the two zeppelins and the headquarters of Deutsche Zeppelin Reederei (the operating company) and Luftschiffbau Zeppelin (the construction company) are at this time, sits on Lake Constance, which forms part of the border with Switzerland! For those families who don't get out with the zeppelins (LZ-127 carries 20 passengers along with a 36 man crew; LZ-130 can carry 72 passengers with a crew of about 40), they can simply take a boat trip across Lake Constance to Romanshorn in Switzerland, where they'd be interred for the rest of hostilities. If all the movements are done very early in the morning, the two Grafs could make the trip to the French border south of Strasbourg (about 120 kilometres away) in about an hour once they were clear of the airship park; LZ-130 could go at a maximum speed of 135 km/h while LZ-127 can do 128 km/h. If they flew out on 9 April 1940 (with the Luftwaffe too busy up north in Denmark and Norway), sunrise would be at 6:45 AM, so optimal launch time from Friedrichshafen should be about 5:00 AM. There would be enough light in the sky for French fighters who mobilize to see what's going on to see white flags flying from the two airships; both had ensign lines connecting their tails to the bottom of their lower rudders to fly flags from and they can also fly them from their control gondolas. Once communication is established, they can then request to head over to RAF Cardington in Bedfordshire north of London, which would be the only active airship base in Europe beyond Germany itself. Once they were there, the press goes to town. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 14, 2019 7:22:45 GMT
Sounds a bit unlikely but given the chaos that Nazi Germany was in has been greatly increased by events it could happen. Eckener would have to get enough of a crew he could trust and all the supplies and equipment plus avoid getting shot down by either side. However it would definitely be a big propaganda coup for the allies but how costly might it be for the families and associates of those who escape?
Friedrichshafen, which is where the two zeppelins and the headquarters of Deutsche Zeppelin Reederei (the operating company) and Luftschiffbau Zeppelin (the construction company) are at this time, sits on Lake Constance, which forms part of the border with Switzerland! For those families who don't get out with the zeppelins (LZ-127 carries 20 passengers along with a 36 man crew; LZ-130 can carry 72 passengers with a crew of about 40), they can simply take a boat trip across Lake Constance to Romanshorn in Switzerland, where they'd be interred for the rest of hostilities. If all the movements are done very early in the morning, the two Grafs could make the trip to the French border south of Strasbourg (about 120 kilometres away) in about an hour once they were clear of the airship park; LZ-130 could go at a maximum speed of 135 km/h while LZ-127 can do 128 km/h. If they flew out on 9 April 1940 (with the Luftwaffe too busy up north in Denmark and Norway), sunrise would be at 6:45 AM, so optimal launch time from Friedrichshafen should be about 5:00 AM. There would be enough light in the sky for French fighters who mobilize to see what's going on to see white flags flying from the two airships; both had ensign lines connecting their tails to the bottom of their lower rudders to fly flags from and they can also fly them from their control gondolas. Once communication is established, they can then request to head over to RAF Cardington in Bedfordshire north of London, which would be the only active airship base in Europe beyond Germany itself. Once they were there, the press goes to town.
Sounds like a plan that could well work, as long as Dr Eckener can persuade enough people to go with him that early in the western campaign. Or keep others in the dark until their left.
Possibly open radio broadcasts once they cross the Swiss-French border would help as well but white flags would definitely be useful.
Would the people be willing to work for the allies, who are fighting Germany, not just the Nazis? Its one thing to hate the regime. Another to help other powers in what will probably end up with them occupying your country. That's a different thing from seeking to escape the Nazis.
Checking his wiki entry Hugo_Eckener_Sidelined it does say that by this time i.e. the start of the war "Eckener, however, had by this time little influence on the Zeppelin Company" and that when the Hindenburg disaster occurred he was in Graz having been removed from active role in the company. Therefore it depends on how much contact/influence he actually had with the people operating the ships. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 18, 2019 9:58:55 GMT
Would be a sight to see one Halifax-class entering Pearl Harbor and passing the USS Arizona who has not ore might never be sunk in this universe. Yes, that it would be. Wonder if Canada would inform the Americans about how not to be caught in the open if the Japanese strike Pearl Harbor. A Halifax-class armed with 16 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile SAM/SSMs and 1 × Phalanx CIWS would be able to destroy a lot of Japanese bombers if it was in Pearl Harbor at the moment of the Japanese strike but in the end the Halifax-class anti air defense is outdated if you compare it to a Dutch De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate who can carry up to 32 × SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles and 32 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (quadpacked). |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 18, 2019 10:14:48 GMT
Wonder if Canada would inform the Americans about how not to be caught in the open if the Japanese strike Pearl Harbor. A Halifax-class armed with 16 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile SAM/SSMs and 1 × Phalanx CIWS would be able to destroy a lot of Japanese bombers if it was in Pearl Harbor at the moment of the Japanese strike but in the end the Halifax-class anti air defense is outdated if you compare it to a Dutch De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate who can carry up to 32 × SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles and 32 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (quadpacked).
I suspect that if Canada hasn't done it already either an American who was in Canada at the time or a down-timer who pays a visit - or more likely multiple such cases - will have already reported on the attack probably with some history books or other sources from Canada. It could be a while before its broadly accepted but almost certainly by this stage and could be nasty for Japanese Americans as well as those in Hawaii. Think there's very little chance of Japan either trying such an attack or the US not being a lot more ready for it. Even now they would have over a year to build up the air defence there, full radar coverage and active patrolling to detect any such attack.
Would expect that the Japanese government is in full scale denial that they would ever consider such an attack and also have some details of how WWII went for them. You might even see a struggle for power among various options - which since we're talking imperial Japan will probably be quite bloody. Given the huge amount of evidence available even the most fanatical militarists will probably be having 2nd thoughts about clashing with the US. They might be arguing they could get away with attacking the European colonies, although given their success in fighting Germany their probably having doubts about that, plus without having FIC it would be far more difficult.
Both powers might also be considering their naval options with possibly even more Essex class CVs being ordered in the US while the IJN might be reconsidering the Yamato class BBs - albeit the 1st two are so advanced they will probably continue with them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 18, 2019 10:18:56 GMT
Wonder if Canada would inform the Americans about how not to be caught in the open if the Japanese strike Pearl Harbor. A Halifax-class armed with 16 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile SAM/SSMs and 1 × Phalanx CIWS would be able to destroy a lot of Japanese bombers if it was in Pearl Harbor at the moment of the Japanese strike but in the end the Halifax-class anti air defense is outdated if you compare it to a Dutch De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate who can carry up to 32 × SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles and 32 × Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (quadpacked). I suspect that if Canada hasn't done it already either an American who was in Canada at the time or a down-timer who pays a visit - or more likely multiple such cases - will have already reported on the attack probably with some history books or other sources from Canada. It could be a while before its broadly accepted but almost certainly by this stage and could be nasty for Japanese Americans as well as those in Hawaii. Think there's very little chance of Japan either trying such an attack or the US not being a lot more ready for it. Even now they would have over a year to build up the air defence there, full radar coverage and active patrolling to detect any such attack.
Would expect that the Japanese government is in full scale denial that they would ever consider such an attack and also have some details of how WWII went for them. You might even see a struggle for power among various options - which since we're talking imperial Japan will probably be quite bloody. Given the huge amount of evidence available even the most fanatical militarists will probably be having 2nd thoughts about clashing with the US. They might be arguing they could get away with attacking the European colonies, although given their success in fighting Germany their probably having doubts about that, plus without having FIC it would be far more difficult. Both powers might also be considering their naval options with possibly even more Essex class CVs being ordered in the US while the IJN might be reconsidering the Yamato class BBs - albeit the 1st two are so advanced they will probably continue with them.
I think any class with America will get Canada involved and the same thing is for Japan attacking European colonies. Japan of 1941 has a embassy in Berlin still, i expect that it learns a lot from the battles that is fought over, especially of interest is the destruction of the major Kriegsmarine ships to them, a fate that the Imperial Japanese Navy also can suffer these days. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 18, 2019 10:34:26 GMT
I suspect that if Canada hasn't done it already either an American who was in Canada at the time or a down-timer who pays a visit - or more likely multiple such cases - will have already reported on the attack probably with some history books or other sources from Canada. It could be a while before its broadly accepted but almost certainly by this stage and could be nasty for Japanese Americans as well as those in Hawaii. Think there's very little chance of Japan either trying such an attack or the US not being a lot more ready for it. Even now they would have over a year to build up the air defence there, full radar coverage and active patrolling to detect any such attack.
Would expect that the Japanese government is in full scale denial that they would ever consider such an attack and also have some details of how WWII went for them. You might even see a struggle for power among various options - which since we're talking imperial Japan will probably be quite bloody. Given the huge amount of evidence available even the most fanatical militarists will probably be having 2nd thoughts about clashing with the US. They might be arguing they could get away with attacking the European colonies, although given their success in fighting Germany their probably having doubts about that, plus without having FIC it would be far more difficult. Both powers might also be considering their naval options with possibly even more Essex class CVs being ordered in the US while the IJN might be reconsidering the Yamato class BBs - albeit the 1st two are so advanced they will probably continue with them.
I think any class with America will get Canada involved and the same thing is for Japan attacking European colonies. Japan of 1941 has a embassy in Berlin still, i expect that it learns a lot from the battles that is fought over, especially of interest is the destruction of the major Kriegsmarine ships to them, a fate that the Imperial Japanese Navy also can suffer these days.
Very true. I wonder what the Japanese up-time embassy in Ottawa are doing and how their trying to prevent their country charging into disaster?
However this exchange is probably better off in the main thread rather than the ORBAT one. Would it be possible to move the relevant posts please?
One small quibble. You mean clash not class otherwise it rather changes the meaning of the sentence.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 18, 2019 10:45:04 GMT
I think any class with America will get Canada involved and the same thing is for Japan attacking European colonies. Japan of 1941 has a embassy in Berlin still, i expect that it learns a lot from the battles that is fought over, especially of interest is the destruction of the major Kriegsmarine ships to them, a fate that the Imperial Japanese Navy also can suffer these days. Very true. I wonder what the Japanese up-time embassy in Ottawa are doing and how their trying to prevent their country charging into disaster? However this exchange is probably better off in the main thread rather than the ORBAT one. Would it be possible to move the relevant posts please? One small quibble. You mean clash not class otherwise it rather changes the meaning of the sentence. Done, thanks for the notice stevep. By now the up-time Japanese embassy will have made contact with the 1941 Japanese and show them what happens if they go on the warpath like they did in OTL. |
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pyeknu
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Post by pyeknu on May 18, 2019 11:34:57 GMT
Done, thanks for the notice stevep . By now the up-time Japanese embassy will have made contact with the 1941 Japanese and show them what happens if they go on the warpath like they did in OTL. My side story about that is already in this chat. |
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Post by stevep on May 18, 2019 12:22:12 GMT
Done, thanks for the notice stevep . By now the up-time Japanese embassy will have made contact with the 1941 Japanese and show them what happens if they go on the warpath like they did in OTL. My side story about that is already in this chat.
pyeknu
Thanks for the reminder. Only a month ago and I'd already forgotten it!  I definitely need to finish research on that eternal youth serum.
As I said in my post earlier today I'm less certain than I was when I replied then that Japan will try anything stupid against the western powers. However getting them to withdraw from China, especially if that included Manchuria is going to be difficult and could lead to bloody civil war in Japan. Even through that may be better for them and especially for the rest of the region than what happened OTL.
Steve
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pyeknu
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Post by pyeknu on May 18, 2019 12:44:12 GMT
My side story about that is already in this chat.
pyeknu
Thanks for the reminder. Only a month ago and I'd already forgotten it! I definitely need to finish research on that eternal youth serum.
As I said in my post earlier today I'm less certain than I was when I replied then that Japan will try anything stupid against the western powers. However getting them to withdraw from China, especially if that included Manchuria is going to be difficult and could lead to bloody civil war in Japan. Even through that may be better for them and especially for the rest of the region than what happened OTL.
Steve
LOL! We all have memory problems, friend! And yes, I do see civil war in the future for Japan. It would be mostly centred on the Army vs. Navy rivalry. Now, there'll be the fanatics on both sides, but the main goal in the case of both sides leaders would be to win the favour of the Heavenly Sovereign. Given he'll probably start having major doubts about trying to expand his domain beyond what he's got now and given the sheer quagmire that China is becoming to his nation, he'll probably move to suggest that a pull-back would be desired. Once Tôjô and his supporters hear that, they'll immediately think that "traitors" are moving to subvert their moves to create the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere from within, then start a crackdown. That would give Navy leaders like Yamamoto the chance to protect His Imperial Majesty, which will set it off. As to what happens afterwards...! |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 18, 2019 13:36:28 GMT
pyeknu Thanks for the reminder. Only a month ago and I'd already forgotten it! I definitely need to finish research on that eternal youth serum. As I said in my post earlier today I'm less certain than I was when I replied then that Japan will try anything stupid against the western powers. However getting them to withdraw from China, especially if that included Manchuria is going to be difficult and could lead to bloody civil war in Japan. Even through that may be better for them and especially for the rest of the region than what happened OTL. Steve
LOL! We all have memory problems, friend! And yes, I do see civil war in the future for Japan. It would be mostly centred on the Army vs. Navy rivalry. Now, there'll be the fanatics on both sides, but the main goal in the case of both sides leaders would be to win the favour of the Heavenly Sovereign. Given he'll probably start having major doubts about trying to expand his domain beyond what he's got now and given the sheer quagmire that China is becoming to his nation, he'll probably move to suggest that a pull-back would be desired. Once Tôjô and his supporters hear that, they'll immediately think that "traitors" are moving to subvert their moves to create the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere from within, then start a crackdown. That would give Navy leaders like Yamamoto the chance to protect His Imperial Majesty, which will set it off. As to what happens afterwards...! I do not think it will be a Civil War event, but more how things go in Japan, a coup, with the Navy doing it, the backing of the Emperor and the support of the Up-time Japanese living in Canada and maybe Canada as well with the promise that if they back out of China, then Japan will get Canadian oil. Also i wonder if the Daqing Oil Field is now known to 1941 Japan. |
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Post by eurowatch on May 18, 2019 13:45:31 GMT
LOL! We all have memory problems, friend! And yes, I do see civil war in the future for Japan. It would be mostly centred on the Army vs. Navy rivalry. Now, there'll be the fanatics on both sides, but the main goal in the case of both sides leaders would be to win the favour of the Heavenly Sovereign. Given he'll probably start having major doubts about trying to expand his domain beyond what he's got now and given the sheer quagmire that China is becoming to his nation, he'll probably move to suggest that a pull-back would be desired. Once Tôjô and his supporters hear that, they'll immediately think that "traitors" are moving to subvert their moves to create the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere from within, then start a crackdown. That would give Navy leaders like Yamamoto the chance to protect His Imperial Majesty, which will set it off. As to what happens afterwards...! I do not think it will be a Civil War event, but more how things go in Japan, a coup, with the Navy doing it, the backing of the Emperor and the support of the Up-time Japanese living in Canada and maybe Canada as well with the promise that if they back out of China, then Japan will get Canadian oil. Also i wonder if the Daqing Oil Field is now known to 1941 Japan. Even if they wanted to, Japan has invested to much into China to back out now. There is to much national pride at stake to pull out, or they would have done it already when the US and DEI started their oil embargo. What would interest them would be the information that the US might not bother continuing the war against them if they were to invade only the Phillipines. |
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I definitely need to finish research on that eternal youth serum.