kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Jun 4, 2017 9:54:55 GMT
I am butterflying Columbus and the colonization of Americas and delaying the contact with the Aztecs and Incas, there might be some discovery but it would be the discovery of the OTL Quebec, Brazil and Newfoundland and it would take to late 16th to early 17th century for them to be discovered, can anyone help me.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 4, 2017 9:57:54 GMT
I am butterflying Columbus and the colonization of Americas and delaying the contact with the Aztecs and Incas, there might be some discovery but it would be the discovery of the OTL Quebec, Brazil and Newfoundland and it would take to late 16th to early 17th century for them to be discovered, can anyone help me. I always liked to see the Aztecs and Incas survive a bit longer as i always believe they might stand somewhat a change against the Old World arrivals if they manged to develop somewhat more. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 4, 2017 10:23:53 GMT
I am butterflying Columbus and the colonization of Americas and delaying the contact with the Aztecs and Incas, there might be some discovery but it would be the discovery of the OTL Quebec, Brazil and Newfoundland and it would take to late 16th to early 17th century for them to be discovered, can anyone help me. I always liked to see the Aztecs and Incas survive a bit longer as i always believe they might stand somewhat a change against the Old World arrivals if they manged to develop somewhat more. I can't really see them developing that much due to lack of environmental resources - i.e. draft animals, crops, metallurgy etc. Also its unclear how much longer either empire might stay at its OTL peak level. The Incas had exploded rapidly across the Andes and neighbouring regions and such dramatic rises are often followed by equally rapid collapses. For the Aztecs could their massive blood sacrifices have been sustained? If contact with the old world had been delayed won't the new explorers be even more advanced in comparison, albeit not by as much as OTL's technology in that period. Hence even if further delayed by starting off in areas away from the two empires western exploration of the new world is likely to be faster and once rumours of gold and silver reach them the vultures will gather. Although if Europe sees more great powers active rather than Spain being so massively dominant in early exploration of the Americas one of the empires might be able to play them off against each other. Even so there's going to be a huge technological gulf and the disease pandemics. Plus with the Aztecs especially the repulsion against their human sacrifices. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 4, 2017 10:49:02 GMT
I always liked to see the Aztecs and Incas survive a bit longer as i always believe they might stand somewhat a change against the Old World arrivals if they manged to develop somewhat more. I can't really see them developing that much due to lack of environmental resources - i.e. draft animals, crops, metallurgy etc. Also its unclear how much longer either empire might stay at its OTL peak level. The Incas had exploded rapidly across the Andes and neighbouring regions and such dramatic rises are often followed by equally rapid collapses. For the Aztecs could their massive blood sacrifices have been sustained? If contact with the old world had been delayed won't the new explorers be even more advanced in comparison, albeit not by as much as OTL's technology in that period. Hence even if further delayed by starting off in areas away from the two empires western exploration of the new world is likely to be faster and once rumours of gold and silver reach them the vultures will gather. Although if Europe sees more great powers active rather than Spain being so massively dominant in early exploration of the Americas one of the empires might be able to play them off against each other. Even so there's going to be a huge technological gulf and the disease pandemics. Plus with the Aztecs especially the repulsion against their human sacrifices. Was thinking that as well, even with the Aztecs and Incas be given extra time to prepare for the arrival of the Portuguese, Spanish ore who ever lands first, they will still suffer heavy losses to disease pandemics and the firepower the Old World arrivals are bringing. |
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Jun 5, 2017 2:01:37 GMT
Suppose the Aztecs mass and attack the first landings, take huge casualities but over run and wipe out the entire group.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 5, 2017 3:26:58 GMT
Suppose the Aztecs mass and attack the first landings, take huge casualities but over run and wipe out the entire group. I would think first contact will happen like in OTL, despite the difference in the years it takes place. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 5, 2017 7:54:12 GMT
Suppose the Aztecs mass and attack the first landings, take huge casualities but over run and wipe out the entire group. How would they know that such a landing is occurring, or that its not just a trading group they haven't met before? IIRC they did have some provinces on the Caribbean coastline but the bulk of the empire was in the central valley. Coupled with the limited communications, even if they knew where and when someone was coming it would be very difficult. If you don't know when and where, even if you know the Spanish [say] are out there could the empire maintain large forces in the coastal regions in preparation? That would be a huge task. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Jun 8, 2017 15:49:13 GMT
I think at that time the Mayans and Tarascans might show that they are unconquerable to the europeans and had a better chance against them due to them recovering from diseases.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 8, 2017 16:05:48 GMT
I think at that time the Mayans and Tarascans might show that they are unconquerable to the europeans and had a better chance against them due to them recovering from diseases. Still i think the Spanish armed with broadswords, rapiers, lances, pikes, halberds, crossbows, matchlocks and light artillery versus Maya warriors who are fight with flint-tipped spears, bows and arrows, stones, and wooden swords with inset obsidian blades, the vicotry goes to the Spanish. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 8, 2017 18:41:54 GMT
I think at that time the Mayans and Tarascans might show that they are unconquerable to the europeans and had a better chance against them due to them recovering from diseases. Still i think the Spanish armed with broadswords, rapiers, lances, pikes, halberds, crossbows, matchlocks and light artillery versus Maya warriors who are fight with flint-tipped spears, bows and arrows, stones, and wooden swords with inset obsidian blades, the vicotry goes to the Spanish. I think some of the Maya managed to hold out for quite a while, if partly due to the jungle terrain and possibly also because Spanish attention was concentrated on the wealthier Aztec and Inca regions. Especially if there is a longer delay between the diseases hitting and significant contact with incoming Europeans this could mean European conquest is delayed even further or possibly largely avoided. However I doubt this would help for the Mexicans or Incas as they have less favourable terrain and so much more wealth to attract invaders. The other factor which might come into play with later European intrusions would be the balance of power in Europe. If instead of Spain being largely unchallenged for mostr of the 16thC in the Americas there are multiple powers contesting for influence you might be able to get a native power playing them off against each other. However this would probably require a conversion to some form of christianity and definitely an end to human sacrifice so your still likely to see Mexico conquered. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Jun 9, 2017 5:08:24 GMT
I think the Tarascans and Mayans would most likely have Iron weapons when the Europeans arrive in a delayed colonization scenario.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 9, 2017 14:23:03 GMT
I think the Tarascans and Mayans would most likely have Iron weapons when the Europeans arrive in a delayed colonization scenario. Why? They didn't seem likely to develop them themselves so unless you assume that a slow contact with some Europeans gives access to both such technology and the ability to reliably reproduce it I suspect they will still be relying on obsedien or possibly some bronze. Steve |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 9, 2017 14:28:04 GMT
I think the Tarascans and Mayans would most likely have Iron weapons when the Europeans arrive in a delayed colonization scenario. Why? They didn't seem likely to develop them themselves so unless you assume that a slow contact with some Europeans gives access to both such technology and the ability to reliably reproduce it I suspect they will still be relying on obsedien or possibly some bronze. Steve Plus they still need to worry that the kingdoms they have subjected do not revolt and join the Spanish. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Jun 12, 2017 15:03:20 GMT
Why? They didn't seem likely to develop them themselves so unless you assume that a slow contact with some Europeans gives access to both such technology and the ability to reliably reproduce it I suspect they will still be relying on obsedien or possibly some bronze. Steve Plus they still need to worry that the kingdoms they have subjected do not revolt and join the Spanish. I think the Tarascans and Mayans could chose not to conquer anyone and let the spanish conquer others and resist once they have the immunity. |
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dalecoz
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Post by dalecoz on Aug 3, 2017 4:22:19 GMT
Let's game out what would happen if the Spanish discovery was delayed by say 100 to 150 years. That's actually pretty tough to imagine without something major happening in the Iberian peninsula. Portugal would almost certainly discover Brazil within a couple decades of 1492 because of their voyages around Africa. News of the discovery would leak and other countries would do their own explorations. Somebody would probably find the Aztecs by the 1550s at latest. To give us 150 years, we would have to get both Spain and Portugal distracted in some way. One good possibility: Portugal and Castile were major rivals over African trade in the late 1400s. From 1475 to 1479, Portugal fought in the War of the Castilian Succession, trying to establish a dynastic alliance between Portugal and a claimant to the Castilian throne. If Portugal won, they would dominate the bulk of the Iberian peninsula. We don't necessarily want that. What we do want is a long and expensive war that preoccupied both countries for a decade or two, with Castile, as site of the most of the fighting, devastated and Portugal put into eclipse for a few decades. Maybe the remaining Moors in southern Spain attempt a comeback against the weakened Christian kingdoms. In any case, Spain is too preoccupied with the aftermath of the war and fighting the Moors to go exploring and Portuguese discovery of Brazil gets delayed.
Let's say that without Columbus and with a lot of bad luck, the Portuguese discovery of Brazil would have happened around 1530. Delay it 20-30 years until maybe the 1560s. The Portuguese were pretty good at keeping secrets, but let's say the secret of the discovery leaks out by the 1570s. By that time, fishermen have found and been using the great fishing grounds off North America. Voyages of discovery proceed along the coasts and into the West Indies, with Portugal, France and England involved. It took roughly twenty-five years from Columbus's first voyage to the first discovery of the Aztecs and that was from a West Indies starting point. Let's start the race in 1572, give it an additional 10 years before the discovery of the Aztecs and the first Europeans arrive in 1602. Close enough, right?
This is getting long, so what would happen next is under the next rock.
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