lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2017 17:32:05 GMT
Map: What If Italy Had Won the War?
Rarely is the question asked: What if Italy had won the Second World War? The more frequently asked question is: What if Germany had won the war? Italy may have been the birthplace of fascism [1] but in the original Axis of Evil [2], the Italians clearly were the junior partners to the Germans – ideologically, economically and militarily. Fascist Italy nevertheless has an expansionist track record distinct from Germany’s: Mussolini‘s stated aim was to restore the Roman Empire (or build something similar to it), and to reclaim the Mediterranean as an Italian Mare Nostrum [3]. He never quite managed to do that, but did cobble together something of an African empire, conquering Lybia, Eritrea, Ethiopia and part of Somalia. Closer to home, some of Italy’s irredentist [4] frustrations were satisfied by the annexation of neighboring territories, such as the area around Nice after the fall of France. Expansion in the Balkans and Greece was less successful, and the Germans had to come to the aid of the Italians to consolidate the Axis hold on the area. After the war, Italy obviously lost all its colonies and extra territories. These two maps are an answer to the Italian version of the most frequently asked What if-question about the Second World War. They are taken from Italian writer Enrico Brizzi’s novel L’inattesa piega degli eventi (‘The Unexpected Unfolding of Events’), which describes an alternate historical world in which fascist Italy breaks with Hitler in time to be counted as a victor, come Germany’s eventual defeat. The alternate 1960s Italy described in the novel is still ruled by an ageing Duce [5], a situation immediately reminiscent of Spain, which was the fiefdom of generalissimo Francisco Franco, the victor of the Spanish Civil war, from the late 1930s to the mid-1970s. Map I
As you can see, the war is over, and Malta and Corsica are now parts of Italy, as “Republica Associatas”, which means “associated republics,” you can see up at the top that the Savoy and Nice have been reconquered, mostly after the war, in treaties, conquests or annexations from 1945-1951, up at the top you can also see that the Tirol and “Alta Valdrava” (apparently part of Austrian Carinthia) has been conquered from Austria.  Map II
The second map shows Italy’s territorial acquisitions in Africa, the Italian Empire controls Eritrea, Ethiopia and the larger part of what today is Somalia. The British rule over Somaliland in the north, an enclave in Italian East Africa. 
Notes[1] Mussolini’s power grab in 1922 preceded Hitler’s by more than a decade. [2] Rome-Berlin, as of the signing of a friendship treaty between Italy and Germany in October 1936; Rome-Berlin-Tokyo, as of the signing of the Tripartite Pact in September 1940. The Axis was thereafter sometimes also called RoBerTo in Italy. [3] ‘Our Sea’, a common term for the sea when all its shores were Roman possessions. [4] Irredentism, i.e.the desire to annex territory based on historical and/or ethnic grounds, gets its name from Italia irredenta, a term to describe territories held by the Austro-Hungarian empire between the unification of Italy and the end of the First World War, and claimed by Italy. [5] Fascist leaders love epithetons. Hitler’s was Fuehrer, Franco liked to be called Caudillo and Mussolini was nuts about Duce, which means something like ‘leader’ or ‘guide’.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 19, 2017 22:44:57 GMT
Lordroel
Does the artical say anything about the circumstances of this scenario? It sounds a bit odd as Italy are more successful than OTL, in keeping their isolated E African empire and taking Malta, then keeping it in the following peace as well as Corsica from France. I could see a scenario where Italy ends up on the winning side by staying out of the war until the end and then back-stabbing Germany as its going down. In which case it could gains lands to its NW and keep its existing lands in E Africa but taking territory from France, let alone Britain would be extremely unlikely.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2017 22:47:57 GMT
Lordroel Does the artical say anything about the circumstances of this scenario? It sounds a bit odd as Italy are more successful than OTL, in keeping their isolated E African empire and taking Malta, then keeping it in the following peace as well as Corsica from France. I could see a scenario where Italy ends up on the winning side by staying out of the war until the end and then back-stabbing Germany as its going down. In which case it could gains lands to its NW and keep its existing lands in E Africa but taking territory from France, let alone Britain would be extremely unlikely. Steve Well the book might have more information but its in Italian, only have these links as source of this thread: What If Italy Had Won the War? and another one also called: If Italy Won the War |
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Post by rumdonkey on Apr 9, 2017 16:11:02 GMT
I can see a smarter and calmer Mussolini( maybe a stretch) playing both Nazis and Allies,but not taking Malta and Corsica.Libya and east Africa are much more logical,given the politics and racial attitudes of 1940s.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 16:55:45 GMT
I can see a smarter and calmer Mussolini( maybe a stretch) playing both Nazis and Allies,but not taking Malta and Corsica.Libya and east Africa are much more logical,given the politics and racial attitudes of 1940s. That could, but according to somebody on Facebook where i also posted this the breakup with Germany occurred before the Italian Racial Laws were promulgated, thus allowing the Italian team of scientists who were researching the construction of a nuclear weapon to go ahead - in OTL Enrico Fermi had to leave Italy and joined the Manhattan Project - and making Italy the first country to detonate an atom bomb in the Libyan desert (I know, I know, this is ASB). Italy would then use knowledge in nuclear weapons manufacturing to repay war debts, and as a bargaining chip with US, UK and USSR, to whom Italy was allied. |
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Post by Al3ssio97 on Apr 9, 2017 17:37:28 GMT
Im also working on a similar series where the Italian Republic isn't founded in the 1946, but instead in the 1860 by the Italian Patriots and then both Italian Republic and the Kingdom of Italy woud coexisted in the peninsula until the summer of the 1900, when King Umberto I wss kill by Gaetano Bresci, this event bring at several revolts and riots and in two mounths the Kingdom of Italy woud be ceased of live, in WW1 Italy woud will be attack by Austria-Hungary as they don't wanna have a pro-entente state and a state that can block his trade, after the war Italy woud take South-Tyrol, Istria and German New Guinea (This why the Italian possediments in the Micronesia was attack by the German Imperial forces).
In the 1922 Mussolini with his March on Rome woud take the power for 23 years (1922 - 1945) and it woud attack by Germany in 1941 for his geographical importance and strategic position, Mussolini in this tl don't side with Germany or the UK for his too low budget and industrial forces, as Italy still need recover himself from the Ethiopian war and from the Spanish Civil War.
The Germans in the WW2 woud conquerd all Italy until the Gustav Line, and so on the 8th Septhember of the 1943 Mussolini, his goverment, the president and the chief of stall after have give instructions at the Armed Forces of reunited themself at Naples woud risalite the peninsula with the help of the Allied, from the 1942 to the 1945 in the occupited zone by the Germans group of resistance formed by civilans and/or non-fascist forces, but also a large majority of this resistance group woud be formed by PNF members, Militiaman of the M.V.S.N. and ex-soldiers, all under the C.L.N. (Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale).
Italy woud be liberated in the April of the 1945 and after it woud send a expeditionary forces in Austria for secure the Tyrol, Italy woud join at the St. Francisco convenction and it woud a founding state of the UN, Italy woud be rewarded with 1/3 of the German Fleet, war reparations by Germany and Japan, in the same year Mussolini for the good of the fatherland and of the unity decide to resign from his office and restore democracy, but the PFR woud remain legal and many voted until the 91', when the party will be disabilitated by his own members.
For the colony they will be achive indipendence from the 1971 to the 1983, when the last colony of Italy; Italian New Guinea woud become Papua Nuova Guinea with the British New Guinea.
- Comore (1873)
- Maldives (1870)
- Somalia (1884 - 1935) (Converted info the Italian East Africa) (Barre don't take power and instead a democratic republic is founded)
- Eritrea (1900 - 1935) (Converted info the Italian East Africa)
- Italian Concession of Tientsin (1900 - 1940)
- Italian Micronesia (1900 - 1981) (in 1981 the Micronesia woud split info Palau, Marshall Islands, Republic of Micronesia and Northern Mariana Islands, all the nations with the exception of the Northern Mariana, voted in favor of become indipendence)
- Italian Libya (1911 - 1975) (Gheddafi don't take power and instead a democratic republic is founded) (The stip of Azoul woud be under Libyan control since the 1934)
- Dodecanese (1911 - 1971)
- Italian New Guinea (ex-German New Guinea pre 1899) (1918 - 1983) (The Italian and the British New Guinea woud be united in 1983 for former the otl Papua New Guinea)
- Ethiopia (1935 - 1978)
- Italian East Africa (1935 - 1978) (Created after the war again Ethiopia with the union of Somalia and Eritrea, in the 1978 the three governorate of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia become indipendence)
If you need more information ask at me.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 17:44:41 GMT
Im also working on a similar series where the Italian Republic isn't founded in the 1946, but instead in the 1860 by the Italian Patriots and then both Italian Republic and the Kingdom of Italy If you need more information ask at me. Would the Kingdom of Italy based on the kingdom of two sicilies. |
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Post by Al3ssio97 on Apr 9, 2017 17:49:53 GMT
Im also working on a similar series where the Italian Republic isn't founded in the 1946, but instead in the 1860 by the Italian Patriots and then both Italian Republic and the Kingdom of Italy If you need more information ask at me. Would the Kingdom of Italy based on the kingdom of two sicilies. No, instead the Italian Republic woud be based on the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies plus the two Papal exclave of Pontecorvo and Benevento, the Kingdom of Italy instead woud be have the rest of Italy with the exeption of Venetia (Annexed in 1866) and of Lazio (Annexed in 1870) |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 17:52:59 GMT
Would the Kingdom of Italy based on the kingdom of two sicilies. No, instead the Italian Republic woud be based on the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies plus the two Papal exclave of Pontecorvo and Benevento, the Kingdom of Italy instead woud be have the rest of Italy with the exeption of Venetia (Annexed in 1866) and of Lazio (Annexed in 1870) So something like Kingdom of Sardinia annexing North Italy over a period either by war ore other ways. |
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Post by Al3ssio97 on Apr 9, 2017 17:54:46 GMT
No, instead the Italian Republic woud be based on the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies plus the two Papal exclave of Pontecorvo and Benevento, the Kingdom of Italy instead woud be have the rest of Italy with the exeption of Venetia (Annexed in 1866) and of Lazio (Annexed in 1870) So something like Kingdom of Sardinia annexing North Italy over a period either by war ore other ways. The otl Kingdom of Italy withpus south Italy, and the Kingdom of Italy woud existed between the 1860 and the 1900 |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 17:57:35 GMT
So something like Kingdom of Sardinia annexing North Italy over a period either by war ore other ways. The otl Kingdom of Italy withpus south Italy, and the Kingdom of Italy woud existed between the 1860 and the 1900 Okay thanks for the explanation. Somebody posted on Facebook another what If Italy Had Won the War map, i like this one as well.  |
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Post by Al3ssio97 on Apr 9, 2017 18:08:35 GMT
The otl Kingdom of Italy withpus south Italy, and the Kingdom of Italy woud existed between the 1860 and the 1900 Okay thanks for the explanation. Somebody posted on Facebook another what If Italy Had Won the War map, i like this one as well. Yeah this imagne was created by an artist on deviantart |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 18:10:35 GMT
Okay thanks for the explanation. Somebody posted on Facebook another what If Italy Had Won the War map, i like this one as well. Yeah this imagne was created by an artist on deviantart Yes i saw, some of them are really good. |
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Post by Al3ssio97 on Apr 9, 2017 18:23:13 GMT
Yeah this imagne was created by an artist on deviantart Yes i saw, some of them are really good. I know, and i have also create my map for my timeline. I woud send that when i can |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2017 18:25:59 GMT
Yes i saw, some of them are really good. I know, and i have also create my map for my timeline. I woud send that when i can No problem, the forum is always happy to get new maps, maybe you can even be awarded the prestige Grand Order of the master Map maker| for creating a map that stands above many. |
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