lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 8, 2017 20:27:29 GMT
What if: Harold had a Roman legion at the battle of Hastings
Would King Harold have fared better at the battle of Hastings if he was given command of the Legio XX Valeria Victrix (English: Twentieth Victorious Valeria Legion), a Roman legion that was garrisoned in England in the 1st century. Harold would certainly have benefited from the services of the Legio XX Valeria Victrix. Such a legion would have been around 6,000 strong – about the same number as William the Conqueror's force – and would have carried the large square shields with which they could have constructed the famous "tortoise" formation to protect Harold from the Norman arrows and, given the high ground of Senlac hill, would almost certainly have seen off the Norman invaders.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 9, 2017 16:21:20 GMT
I'm not sure how much metallurgy may have improved over the millennium or so but other than that I would agree. The legion would be a lot more disciplined, so wouldn't have the problem of forces pulled out of position by Norman withdrawals - feints or otherwise. Also its a much more balanced force, with its own effective missile units as well as the pilum's available to the ordinary infantry. It will also have cavalry, albeit not as effective as the Norman ones because the latter will have saddles and probably better overall armour. Of course the ideal solution would be to have the legion loyal to Harold and the Saxon forces. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 9, 2017 16:22:42 GMT
I'm not sure how much metallurgy may have improved over the millennium or so but other than that I would agree. The legion would be a lot more disciplined, so wouldn't have the problem of forces pulled out of position by Norman withdrawals - feints or otherwise. Also its a much more balanced force, with its own effective missile units as well as the pilum's available to the ordinary infantry. It will also have cavalry, albeit not as effective as the Norman ones because the latter will have saddles and probably better overall armour. Of course the ideal solution would be to have the legion loyal to Harold and the Saxon forces. Steve Harold is given command of the Legio XX Valeria Victrix, thus they are loyal to him.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 9, 2017 21:54:35 GMT
Ah if he's given the legion as well as his OTL troops rather than instead of, then its a massacre. More complex if they arrive some time before the battle as their likely to go up to Stamford Bridge as well, which would make it even worse for the unarmoured Norse in the battle there. Also that lone warrior who delayed matters at the bridge isn't going to last long. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 10, 2017 3:49:37 GMT
Ah if he's given the legion as well as his OTL troops rather than instead of, then its a massacre. More complex if they arrive some time before the battle as their likely to go up to Stamford Bridge as well, which would make it even worse for the unarmoured Norse in the battle there. Also that lone warrior who delayed matters at the bridge isn't going to last long. Steve l I think you would be correct, having his regular army and a legion would not bold well for William who not only will be stunned by the sight of so many enemy troops but also wondering what the heck a Roman legion is doing there.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 10, 2017 10:26:23 GMT
Ah if he's given the legion as well as his OTL troops rather than instead of, then its a massacre. More complex if they arrive some time before the battle as their likely to go up to Stamford Bridge as well, which would make it even worse for the unarmoured Norse in the battle there. Also that lone warrior who delayed matters at the bridge isn't going to last long. Steve l I think you would be correct, having his regular army and a legion would not bold well for William who not only will be stunned by the sight of so many enemy troops but also wondering what the heck a Roman legion is doing there. William and his men may well not recognise them as Roman but they will be totally surprised by the appearance of those extra and very odd looking troops. One potential problem would be how the Saxons react to the appearance of the legion. Apart from some element fearing that they might be replaced and the king might become too powerful, once they realise who the Romans are there is the question of religion. The Romans at this point would be pagan and what they know of Christianity would be a strange and rather dubious cult from the east while England is a Christian country and Harold was strongly religious.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 10, 2017 15:18:28 GMT
l I think you would be correct, having his regular army and a legion would not bold well for William who not only will be stunned by the sight of so many enemy troops but also wondering what the heck a Roman legion is doing there. One potential problem would be how the Saxons react to the appearance of the legion. Apart from some element fearing that they might be replaced and the king might become too powerful, once they realise who the Romans are there is the question of religion. The Romans at this point would be pagan and what they know of Christianity would be a strange and rather dubious cult from the east while England is a Christian country and Harold was strongly religious. Was thinking of that as well, some of his nobles and even people will think of him as a scorcher, his enemy as a demon, he will most likely call it a intervention of God. Also i would assume that the battle of Hastings if won by Harold would not be over as the Normans who have survived will try to retreat back to Normandy, also would we call the Norman conquest of England of OTL with a victory of Harold the Norman-English War of 1066 in this universe ore is a other name better.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 12, 2017 0:04:56 GMT
One potential problem would be how the Saxons react to the appearance of the legion. Apart from some element fearing that they might be replaced and the king might become too powerful, once they realise who the Romans are there is the question of religion. The Romans at this point would be pagan and what they know of Christianity would be a strange and rather dubious cult from the east while England is a Christian country and Harold was strongly religious. Was thinking of that as well, some of his nobles and even people will think of him as a scorcher, his enemy as a demon, he will most likely call it a intervention of God. Also i would assume that the battle of Hastings if won by Harold would not be over as the Normans who have survived will try to retreat back to Normandy, also would we call the Norman conquest of England of OTL with a victory of Harold the Norman-English War of 1066 in this universe ore is a other name better. Religion is, as so often a problem with this sort of things, especially while the Christian churches are so powerful - or other monolithic faiths, as the ME unfortunately shows us. If we're talking about both Saxon forces and a legion and assuming no conflict between them I wonder if there would be any Normans to retreat. The story is with Harald Handradra's force that it was carried over in 200 or 400 ships [forget what the number was] and the survivors sailed home in 30 IIRC. With William he's been ravaging Harold's personal estates and behaving savagely, even by the standards of the time. Coupled with the extra kill power of the legions there might not be many Normans making it too the ships. Also they seem to have been a lot less experienced sailors than their Norse fore-bearers and the channel can be very hazardous that late in the year so it could be even more extreme. [Just got reminded of a line from LOTR, after the battle of the Pelannor Fields - just looked it up -"Few ever came eastwards to Morgul or Mordor and to the lands of the Haradrim came only a tale from far off; a rumour of the wrath and terror of Gondor"] Even if it wasn't that bad I think that would probably be the end of things. Harold isn't particularly interesting in invading Normany, especially since he still has to consolidate his position at home, although two crushing victories like that, even if the legion disappeared as quickly as it appeared, would help in that. Also William's unstable empire had made a fair number of enemies in N France and especially if he failed to make it home there would be a succession crisis and probably invasions and rebellions. I suppose a 3rd option might be William is captured. In which case Harold might exchange him for one of his brothers who was being held hostage in Normandy. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 12, 2017 4:57:43 GMT
Even if it wasn't that bad I think that would probably be the end of things. Harold isn't particularly interesting in invading Normany, especially since he still has to consolidate his position at home, although two crushing victories like that, even if the legion disappeared as quickly as it appeared, would help in that. Also William's unstable empire had made a fair number of enemies in N France and especially if he failed to make it home there would be a succession crisis and probably invasions and rebellions. Steve Wonder of Harold might use his Roman legion and regular army to invade Normandy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 12, 2017 9:49:24 GMT
Even if it wasn't that bad I think that would probably be the end of things. Harold isn't particularly interesting in invading Normany, especially since he still has to consolidate his position at home, although two crushing victories like that, even if the legion disappeared as quickly as it appeared, would help in that. Also William's unstable empire had made a fair number of enemies in N France and especially if he failed to make it home there would be a succession crisis and probably invasions and rebellions. Steve Wonder of Harold might use his Roman legion and regular army to invade Normandy. I think the only way that would be likely would be if William managed to escape and was back in Normandy and still claiming the English throne. Even then I think he would rather deal with it by political means, working on the Pope to get his support and possibly inciting action by Williams opponents in N France. Especially since I believe the bulk of the English fleet was sunk, or at least badly damaged by the same storms that delayed Williams invasion so this would have to be rebuilt. Plus apart from his personal huscarls and possibly those of some friendly nobles, the English army was basically a militia levee and sending it overseas would have been politically and socially difficult if not impossible. As such it would be a case of relying on the legion and his personal troops who, after two bloody battles are probably somewhat reduced. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 12, 2017 14:08:17 GMT
Wonder of Harold might use his Roman legion and regular army to invade Normandy. I think the only way that would be likely would be if William managed to escape and was back in Normandy and still claiming the English throne. Even then I think he would rather deal with it by political means, working on the Pope to get his support and possibly inciting action by Williams opponents in N France. Especially since I believe the bulk of the English fleet was sunk, or at least badly damaged by the same storms that delayed Williams invasion so this would have to be rebuilt. Plus apart from his personal huscarls and possibly those of some friendly nobles, the English army was basically a militia levee and sending it overseas would have been politically and socially difficult if not impossible. As such it would be a case of relying on the legion and his personal troops who, after two bloody battles are probably somewhat reduced. Steve So even if Harold wins the battle of Hastings and with it the Norman-English War of 1066 he might not be out of problem as he has to deal with the church and his nobles who are very worried in how Harold manged to get a Roman legion. Also if we presume that William dies in this ALT battle of Hastings, that would mean that his 15 year old son Robert Curthose (born in 1051) will become the 5th Duke of Normandy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 12, 2017 17:14:00 GMT
I think the only way that would be likely would be if William managed to escape and was back in Normandy and still claiming the English throne. Even then I think he would rather deal with it by political means, working on the Pope to get his support and possibly inciting action by Williams opponents in N France. Especially since I believe the bulk of the English fleet was sunk, or at least badly damaged by the same storms that delayed Williams invasion so this would have to be rebuilt. Plus apart from his personal huscarls and possibly those of some friendly nobles, the English army was basically a militia levee and sending it overseas would have been politically and socially difficult if not impossible. As such it would be a case of relying on the legion and his personal troops who, after two bloody battles are probably somewhat reduced. Steve So even if Harold wins the battle of Hastings and with it the Norman-English War of 1066 he might not be out of problem as he has to deal with the church and his nobles who are very worried in how Harold manged to get a Roman legion. Also if we presume that William dies in this ALT battle of Hastings, that would mean that his 15 year old son Robert Curthose (born in 1051) will become the 5th Duke of Normandy. England had no real history of intervention in the continent at this point and presuming a pretty crushing victory I don't think Harold will see any purpose to attempting a counter-invasion of Normandy. After all he's not claiming a right to rule the Duchy. Only exception might be if William survived, managed to maintain control over Normandy, still claimed the English throne and looked to be a serious continued threat. If William died then Robert would be the legal heir but whether he would actually be able to claim the duchy could be a different matter. William himself had to fight hard for control when he 1st came to power and if a large proportion of the duchy's manpower have died with the Duke in England there is likely to be a period of disorder at least. Especially since many of William's supporters have probably died while a lot of neighbours, worried about Normandy's growth could be looking to pull it down or at least make some gains at its expense. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 12, 2017 17:22:48 GMT
So even if Harold wins the battle of Hastings and with it the Norman-English War of 1066 he might not be out of problem as he has to deal with the church and his nobles who are very worried in how Harold manged to get a Roman legion. Also if we presume that William dies in this ALT battle of Hastings, that would mean that his 15 year old son Robert Curthose (born in 1051) will become the 5th Duke of Normandy. England had no real history of intervention in the continent at this point and presuming a pretty crushing victory I don't think Harold will see any purpose to attempting a counter-invasion of Normandy. After all he's not claiming a right to rule the Duchy. Only exception might be if William survived, managed to maintain control over Normandy, still claimed the English throne and looked to be a serious continued threat. If William died then Robert would be the legal heir but whether he would actually be able to claim the duchy could be a different matter. William himself had to fight hard for control when he 1st came to power and if a large proportion of the duchy's manpower have died with the Duke in England there is likely to be a period of disorder at least. Especially since many of William's supporters have probably died while a lot of neighbours, worried about Normandy's growth could be looking to pull it down or at least make some gains at its expense. Steve So Harold does not need to worry about Normandy being a problem for him in the future.
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Post by puffyclouds on Feb 26, 2017 1:15:23 GMT
Even if it wasn't that bad I think that would probably be the end of things. Harold isn't particularly interesting in invading Normany, especially since he still has to consolidate his position at home, although two crushing victories like that, even if the legion disappeared as quickly as it appeared, would help in that. Also William's unstable empire had made a fair number of enemies in N France and especially if he failed to make it home there would be a succession crisis and probably invasions and rebellions. Steve Wonder of Harold might use his Roman legion and regular army to invade Normandy. I would task them towards Wales or Scotland. However logistics is going to be a problem for the Legion as their equipment is so different than the English.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 26, 2017 9:05:00 GMT
Wonder of Harold might use his Roman legion and regular army to invade Normandy. I would task them towards Wales or Scotland. However logistics is going to be a problem for the Legion as their equipment is so different than the English. They use swords and spears and shields, how can that be different from what English are using.
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