eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jan 16, 2017 17:53:59 GMT
From a cursory reading, the article pretty much confirms my assumptions. If the US security apparatus was caught with its pants down so much that it failed to protect the heart of its military system even when other attacks were underway, I can certainly believe it would fail to protect the White House and the Congress the same way.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 16, 2017 17:57:45 GMT
From a cursory reading, the article pretty confirms my assumptions. If the US security apparatus was caught with its pants down so much that it failed to protect the heart of its military system even when other attacks were underway, I can certainly believe it would fail to protect the White House and the Congress the same way. So which of the 3 planes hits first.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jan 16, 2017 18:18:53 GMT
From a cursory reading, the article pretty confirms my assumptions. If the US security apparatus was caught with its pants down so much that it failed to protect the heart of its military system even when other attacks were underway, I can certainly believe it would fail to protect the White House and the Congress the same way. So which of the 3 planes hits first. Honestly, I don't know. I'm not so mindful of, or expert in, the details of 9/11 events to give you a definitive answer, and at first glance several factors may be involved, such as the point of origin of the planes, the time sequence of the hijackings, their routes, and so on. So I'm going to answer "butteflies align to yield whatever seems to work best for the narrative purposes of the scenario".
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 16, 2017 18:25:24 GMT
So which of the 3 planes hits first. Honestly, I don't know. I'm not so mindful of, or expert in, the details of 9/11 events to give you a definitive answer, and at first glance several factors may be involved, such as the point of origin of the planes, the time sequence of the hijackings, their routes, and so on. So I'm going to answer "butteflies align to yield whatever seems to work best for the narrative purposes of the scenario". We could do just like OTL but then center them on Washington, D.C. Thus plane 1 hits capitol. Plane 2 hits crashes into the western side of the Pentagon and starts a violent fire (16 minutes later). Plane 3 hits White House, 40 minutes after plane 1 hit capitol, president evacuated, vice president among death in capitol attack.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jan 16, 2017 20:47:52 GMT
Honestly, I don't know. I'm not so mindful of, or expert in, the details of 9/11 events to give you a definitive answer, and at first glance several factors may be involved, such as the point of origin of the planes, the time sequence of the hijackings, their routes, and so on. So I'm going to answer "butteflies align to yield whatever seems to work best for the narrative purposes of the scenario". We could do just like OTL but then center them on Washington, D.C. Thus plane 1 hits capitol. Plane 2 hits crashes into the western side of the Pentagon and starts a violent fire (16 minutes later). Plane 3 hits White House, 40 minutes after plane 1 hit capitol, president evacuated, vice president among death in capitol attack. It seems an entirely feasible and reasonable event sequence to me, except you got the POTUS and VPOTUS wrong. In this scenario, the President dies in the attack to the White House, the VP survives and succeeds him. For simplicity I tend to assume him or her - a female VP is hardly unreasonable in 2001 with the right political butterflies, as someone else pointed out - survives because they are on travel on the date of the attack.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2017 4:01:44 GMT
We could do just like OTL but then center them on Washington, D.C. Thus plane 1 hits capitol. Plane 2 hits crashes into the western side of the Pentagon and starts a violent fire (16 minutes later). Plane 3 hits White House, 40 minutes after plane 1 hit capitol, president evacuated, vice president among death in capitol attack. It seems an entirely feasible and reasonable event sequence to me, except you got the POTUS and VPOTUS wrong. In this scenario, the President dies in the attack to the White House, the VP survives and succeeds him. For simplicity I tend to assume him or her - a female VP is hardly unreasonable in 2001 with the right political butterflies, as someone else pointed out - survives because they are on travel on the date of the attack. So the President is killed together with lets say the speaker of the House and the majority floor leader (of the party they belong to), the Vice-President is on a visit in Europe and when the atacks happen is brought to a United states military instillation for safely.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jan 17, 2017 4:53:51 GMT
It seems an entirely feasible and reasonable event sequence to me, except you got the POTUS and VPOTUS wrong. In this scenario, the President dies in the attack to the White House, the VP survives and succeeds him. For simplicity I tend to assume him or her - a female VP is hardly unreasonable in 2001 with the right political butterflies, as someone else pointed out - survives because they are on travel on the date of the attack. So the President is killed together with lets say the speaker of the House and the majority floor leader (of the party they belong to), the Vice-President is on a visit in Europe and when the atacks happen is brought to a United states military instillation for safely. Yep. Optimally a NATO base close enough but somewhat distant from any major European city, if the Euro branch of the terrorist attack wave already started as well. Death of the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate isn't so important for continuity of the government in this circumstance, since the VP outranks them in the presidential line of succession, and if you ask my opinion, I agree with several scholars that they don't really belong there at all, their addition in the 1947 law was a mistake for various reasons. ITTL the mistake gets corrected in the aftermath of the attack and the law is reversed to the 1886 version, with the Cabinet members coming after the VP, with the ATL addition of Homeland Security, state governors, and the list running in order of Department and state importance.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2017 4:58:51 GMT
So the President is killed together with lets say the speaker of the House and the majority floor leader (of the party they belong to), the Vice-President is on a visit in Europe and when the atacks happen is brought to a United states military instillation for safely. Yep. Optimally a NATO base close enough but somewhat distant from any major European city, if the Euro branch of the terrorist attack wave already started as well. That makes perfect sense, also it would be something to see in having either the RAF ore even the French Armée de l'air shoot down one of those terrorist attacks, the only once to do so.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jan 17, 2017 5:33:00 GMT
Yep. Optimally a NATO base close enough but somewhat distant from any major European city, if the Euro branch of the terrorist attack wave already started as well. That makes perfect sense, also it would be something to see in having either the RAF ore even the French Armée de l'air shoot down one of those terrorist attacks, the only once to do so. Yep. As a matter of fact, when I originally conceived the scenario, I thought of the terrorists using something more like like ISIS tactics for the Euro branch of the attack wave, instead of hijacked planes as in North America, but it might well happen the other way. It doesn't matter much, apart perhaps from puzzling which European targets the terrorists might pick in the latter version. What makes a real difference is the US leadership getting partially decapitated, and Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain suffering a damage of their own that is the combined equivalent of the American one. Well apart from the political butterflies arising from the 1981 PoD, and the Middle Eastern ones giving getting ISIS-style territorial control to Al-Quaeda.
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mcnutt
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Post by mcnutt on Jan 17, 2017 12:06:22 GMT
I don't see Phil Crane being picked as Vice President. Bush would have known about his drinking problem. I also see a Republican winning in 1988. The economy was good.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 17, 2017 14:44:12 GMT
I don't see Phil Crane being picked as Vice President. Bush would have known about his drinking problem. I also see a Republican winning in 1988. The economy was good. Well if Phil Crane was Vice-president in this timeline than he would be dangerous to himself and to the world.
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